Yet another sleep question

Okay, so my girls slept through the night once!  And it was great!  But since then they've been up every night at midnight with gas pains.  It used to be if they were gassy at night they'd fuss a little, we'd give them a pacifier, and they'd go right back to sleep.  Now we've got a saga of crying and fussing where one baby will cry and fuss for half an hour, then 20 mins after she gets back to sleep the other one will start, etc.  We end up feeding them around 2am even though they probably don't actually need to eat, because feeding them seems to settle them enough to go back to sleep for a few hours.
 
I don't know what's up with their gassiness or why gas has become an "oh no I need to cry a lot" thing instead of a grunty/groany thing.  I just want to get some sleep!  They're three months adjusted so I think they ought to be physically capable of going all night without eating.  I'm not sure if doing sleep training is really the appropriate thing if they're only awake because of gas.

 

At three months, they may still need to eat. I'd actually question whether the "gas" is really hunger. I know with ours we'd have this kind of thing all the time, where they'd be fussy or waking up and you think, I know they aren't hungry. They shouldn't be hungry. But it turns out, they are hungry.

I think you are doing great for their age. At this age, I wouldn't do anything more than mild sleep training. Let them fuss for 5 minutes or so. Try to settle them without eating. Have great routines. I really think minimum 4 months and really ideally 6 months for true sleep training.

 

My kids needed to eat at night at 3 months also. I think they gave up eating at night around 6-7 months - it's all a blur now, but at 3 months they were still eating a few times a night - we were doing a combination of formula/breastfeeding. We did some daytime sleep training around 6 months and they adjusted their nighttime sleep afterwards.
 
I know it's hard right now, but looking back to it, it seems it went fast. Hang in there, they will start sleeping longer when they're ready.

 

Ditto to what was said so far. We found there was a big difference between they "could" sleep through the night without eating and what they did. Around six months, they just stopped waking to eat and it wasn't consistent until ten months and even now I am waiting to regress so my hopes don't go up that they are finally consistently sleeping through it made me feel better that they just stopped on their own, like they needed to be waking that whole time. Like everyone said, hang in there! It will get easier.

 

Our kids also slept through the night at 3 months (adjusted), sometimes.  We continued to feed them if they woke up and never tried to 'stretch' them.  It didn't take long before they were no longer waking.. maybe a couple of months?  The instances when they woke just became less and longer apart.
For a while it went in stages.. a week of all night then up once a night for a while. I always wondered if that was related to growth spurts.
 
Three months is young for sleep training but it is never to early to start putting them down sleepy but awake.  This is the first step to learning to self-sooth and will be the key to good quality sleep (for everyone!).
Have you read 'healthy sleep habits, happy child'? (my favorite book)  this is the perfect age to start applying it!
 
Also something to be aware of -
If you try to stretch the time between their meals during the day, that can cause wake ups.  If they are eating less during the day they will have to make it up at night.
 
Congrats on the beginning of sleepful nights.. a little glimmer of hope.  they are coming.  you WILL sleep through the night again!

 

I totally hear ya, so frustrating when they've done it one night but then not the next! Basically I agree with everything that's already been said, just wanted to commiserate Ours were consistently sttn around 6 months and some days it felt like I'd never get a full nights sleep again but it happened, and it will for you too!

 

I guess the thing is that I wouldn't mind if we were back on their old routine of sleeping until 2am, waking up hungry, feed, back to sleep until 6am.  That was totally doable and really not a big deal.  The problem is that this past week it's been up at 11:30, up at 1:30, up at 4:30, up at 5:30.  And it's definitely gas -- they are lifting their legs and squeezing their bellies, and if I apply some gentle pressure to their tummies after a while the gas will come out.  Last night at 11:30 I rubbed Cecilia's tummy and did bicycles with her, the gas passed, and she went right back to sleep without me taking her out of her crib or anything.  On the other hand, at 1:30 Cecilia was pretty much inconsolable and we ended up taking her out of the crib and into our bedroom because she was waking up Allison (hubby held her while I pumped, then we fed).  At 4:30 some tummy rubs relieved Allison, but at 5:30 we had to take Allison into the bedroom because she was waking up Cecilia.  Fed them both a little after 6 as is our usual time, and they weren't super hungry or anything based on how long they nursed.

 

You are right, that kind of regression is not right.  I am racking my brain with you.. 
it could be gas, but if nothing has changed in their diet it seems strange that it is suddenly bothering them. You can try keeping them upright after eating just in case it is gas. you may already be doing this.  (In bed i use to lay DS stomach down over my stomach with his feet down. He's head was elevated and I could still rest, kind of.)
 
However, my best guess it is not gas but that they are going through a sleep transition which is causing a sleep deficiency.
The one hour and two hour waking intervals... sound like they are waking instead of moving into the next sleep cycle.  Also the times of night make me think this is the case.  Your biggest window was middle of the night when they would be deepest in sleep and more likely to get through the cycle without waking.
 
What time do you put them down at night?
Between 3 and 4 months most babies begin to need an earlier bed time. (between 6 and 8:00)  This is really hard for most people to do because it goes against all logic.  They don't seem tired sooo we are going to put them to bed earlier!  Overtired babies run on adrenaline.  The adrenaline causes them to have difficulty sleeping and appear to not be tired.  
Try an earlier bedtime, if you are already not sleeping, what do you have to lose?
 
ETA - Are they able to go to sleep when you lay them down 'sleepy but awake'?  this also will be key to soothing themselves through the sleep cycles in the middle of the night.
 
You probably already are.. but avoid picking them up.  whenever possible try to sooth them in their beds.  This will be more and more important as they get older and enjoy your company more and more.

 

We do their last feeding around 7:00 and put them to bed by 7:30.  They're always awake when they go into the crib and as long as it's 7:30 they fall asleep on their own with no problem.  We've tried putting them to bed earlier but it just results in them fussing until 7:30, then falling asleep.
 
The only change I can think diet-wise is that I started taking fenugreek to help my milk supply.  Could that cause gas?  We give them gas drops along with their zantac at their 7:00 feeding.

 

Oh ZANTAC! - do you have a recent weight on them?  When did they last confirm the dosage is correct?
 
ETA - I agree, seems like they are doing well with that bed time.
 
I am an adoptive mom and know a lot of a-moms who take fenugreek in order to make milk for our babies. I have never heard it causing problems with baby tummys.  I will ask around.

 

Their last weight check was about a month ago, but I called the ped about an unrelated issue about a week ago and they said their dosage was already on the high end for their weight and didn't want to make any adjustments.  Last month they were 10lb 1oz and 10lb 4oz -- next weight check is in November.

 

I asked around about fenugreek.  Here is the response-
 
 I am away from my office and all of my wonderful breastfeeding books, but it does ring a bell that fenugreek can irritate tummies for some babies. It is probably a good idea for her to go off the fenugreek for a few days to see how the babies' tummiesdo. If her milk production takes a dip when off the fenugreek (and it seems to be culprit of the tummy problems), there are lots of other galactogogues she can take. A good place to start researching is the book "Making More Milk" by West and Marasco. (A great choice for adoptive mamas, too!) - Alyssa (IBCLC)

 

So the fenugreek might be your answer. (see post above)
 
On a side note - if you don't have a scale you might get one.  It was very helpful for me to keep track of DS's weight for the acid reflux meds.  They grow so fast and dragging two in to the Dr was difficult.
I found a scale that has the bucket for lying them in but then you can remove the bucket so they can stand on it.. so it is useful longer.

 

So I didn't take the fenugreek last night at bedtime, and lo and behold they slept well after their 2am feeding.  BUT.......this morning they were back to their nursing strike meltdown behavior that was what caused me to start taking fenugreek in the first place (see this thread in the breastfeeding forum).  I can't win with these babies!

 

Babies! Gah!

You are doing such a great job with them. Really.

I had a little success with oatmeal increasing supply. It might be worth a try.

 

I wrote you a note in the other thread, about other things that might help increase supply.
 
I was also wondering if you could take the fenugreek only in the morning & afternoon. I don't know how fast it 'clears' your system. Did you take it yesterday morning and yesterday afternoon?  So only missed evening dose? and then they slept?  
Maybe take a 1/2 or 1/4 dose tonight?
Just brainstorming
 
What a time you have had! 
It looks like you have confirmed the cause of the waking and also the nursing strike problem.. now to find the best way to increase milk production and NOT make gassy babies!
 
What a time you have had!  I am sure you are f.r.u.s.t.r.a.t.e.d.  
Hang in there!
 
 
 
Below are two web pages that i found helpful.. The first is herbs that DECREASE supply (no one seems to talk about that!)
http://www.justbreastfeeding.com/low-milk-supply/peppermint-and-other-herbs-that-can-decrease-breast-milk-supply/
http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/low-supply/

 

Thanks for the encouragement and the links!  I took only one fenugreek pill yesterday at noon and they slept pretty well last night, just one gassy episode around midnight (their bedtime feeding was of milk I had pumped the day before).  After their gas episode they slept until 3am before needing to be fed, then a little gassy at 5:30 and starting to wake up at 6:30 which is their "normal" routine.  This morning's nursing went pretty well (no screaming, just Cecilia deciding she was more interested in cooing at the dog than nursing) and I pumped a boatload of milk when I got to work (12oz in 15 mins!) so my supply seems to be okay still -- probably because I got more sleep!

 

That sound encouraging!