What religion is Santa and candy canes?

There is nothing wrong with it and I do it also!

Who is being non-tolerant? I thought we were just discussing, I wasn't upset by anything anyone had said and I hope I did not upset anyone either...

No, but maybe I missed something!

I'm glad I was able to share! It was awesome to get the candy out of the house and not an issue!!!

 

Looking back at my childhood, I would have drastically missed the room parties, concerts, and events all centered around the Christmas holiday. It just would not have been the same. As long as no one is forced to participate, I just don't see the issue.

 

I just wanted to say I'm sorry for quoting so many posts, but I only got around to this thread now and I have a lot of thoughts on this topic.

She can't be too devout in her religion if she said the above. Simply because the whole essence of christmas is celebrating something that as Jews we shouldn't believe in. The fact that some people have chosen to do away with the religion factor in christmas, doesn't make it so.

:acute:

It is different because christmas goes against anything and everything jewish. It's not a neutral topic for a believing jew. It can't be. We don't believe in other gods, and thus, celebrating the celebrations of those other religions is really fallacious. She can try to convince herself that it's just giving gifts etc... but that's just fooling herself. It isn't.

In years past, when the US was a less politically correct place (and IMO, a lot less complicated), the jewish immigrants who came from Eastern Europe really struggled with the holiday celebrations in the schools. The kids were always left out and didn't get christmas cards etc... It was a rough time for the kids. But they knew and understood that it isn't something that we, as jews can celebrate. It's not 'just another holiday' and it can't be that, to a jew.

Are dreidel and latkes against your religious beliefs?

Do you mind elaborating as to what the customs and traditions are?

Although she isn't teaching that, by virtue of celebrating christmas, she is giving them a message. And a wrong message at that. There are many things in life that we want and can't have.

 

As I wrote above, that's just your personal decision, but the facts on the table are different. It isn't about a fight. If one believes in G-d as a Jew, they can't be believing in Christmas. By choosing to believe in G-d, they are accepting that they will not have another God. Choosing to change their religion to suit their current needs doesn't make it that way.

That's like saying that it's inevitable that kids will eat junk food, so we might as well serve it for school lunches. It does happen, but again, it doesn't change the reality that intermarriage does dilute things. A non Jew maintaining the Jewish traditions because of their jewish father doesn't make them jewish and nothing will change that (other than conversion).

That's your choice. Does celebrating a Jewish holiday go against your religion?

To be honest, I don't think the dabbling and diluting is the biggest issue here. I think that it is fallacious to try and convince oneself that celebrating christmas as a believing jew is Ok.

 

She would like to believe that, but again, she's simply trying to shield her kids from a reality that is different than she'd like it to be. I think what most people don't realize that by celebrating christmas as a jew, you are turning your back and on the persecution and suffering that jews experienced years back for not wanting to accept the christian religion. Many many of our great (X10 or whatever number) grandparents died rather than convert. It isn't just about a cool tree or the gifts.

I don't see anything here that's disrespectful. I see it as a civil discussion between adults with differing beliefs. (Well, maybe my posts came out disrespectful, but that's really not my intention. I don't have a great way with words, so I'm sorry if any of you feel that what I wrote was offensive.)

 

I can sense disrespect here, but don't think it's intentional. The fact remains, we cannot raise our children to be respectful and tolerant of other beliefs, if we completely remove them from their world. My children will be exposed to the many holidays celebrated in the winter, and will learn to respect those who observe them.

Teaching a child to enjoy something visual that is symbolic of another religion's holiday does not translate into a denial of their own roots and beliefs. And it goes both ways. That's my two cents

 

I have absolutely no disrespect for a celebration of any holiday. That doesn't translate into me having to celebrate that holiday.

 

Three that come to mind are Chanukah Gelt, sufganiyot and latkes. Whilst all three have some connection there is no religious reason for these specific customs (which is why they vary from region to region).

No, it is (to use your example) understanding that it is normal for children to eat unhealthy food and that it is better to manage the impacts of doing it than to pretend it doesn't happen or that it can be stopped by vilifying those who engage in that behaviour. Does it dilute things? Maybe it is but is it better to have somewhat diluted traditions or none at all?

True but somebody that is born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is Jewish and (provided they are female) their children would also be technically Jewish yet vilifying inter-marriage is likely to turn this group away rather than towards Judaism.

 

Actually, there is mention in the seforim (gosh, can't remember how to translate that word) about giving chanukah gelt. And the sufganiyot and latkes is to remind us of the oil that was found etc..

I hear you on both points. That puts it in a different perspective for me.

 

I didn't know this. I was aware that it was a custom with a long history but I did not think there was a specific religious reason for it.

I know - which is why I said there was a connection - but as far as I know there is no specific requirement for sufganiyot and latkes specifically. After all, the potatoe was only introduced in Europe in the 1500s (more than 1,500 years after the events that led to the celebration of Chanukah).

 

Esther, too many to quote, but thank you for articulating, based on Jewish belief and law why Jews should not celebrate Christmas.

I really see no disrespect in this thread, quite the opposite.

Regarding your bolded comment, I just don't see it the same way. You also say it goes both ways. I don't know where you grew up, but where I grew up, I learned all about Christmas via school pagents and whatnot, but no one learned about Channukah or Passover unless I told them. I see that as a double standard. Now I grew up in the 70s, it has a changed a lot, but I'm speaking from my own experience.

No one in this thread is saying teach you should only teach your kids one religion. I do have believe however it is best to practice one religion in your home. You can expose to kids to other belief systems and practices by visiting families who believe differently, going to museums, reading books, etc but that doesn't mean you need to have a Menorah in your house or host a Seder. I know all about Lent, although not all of its religious connatations, but I wouldn't ever have my children observe it as a way to learn about it, it's not my holiday to celebrate.

 

Wow really? Isn't a person's personal belief not up for judgment as so many religious people claim? Aren't there always mentions of how someone's relationship with their God and religion is known only to them and their God?

I don't mean to sound rude and disrespectful at ALL, but isn't it possible that some Jews have moved passed that? Have their own way of remembering their past? This looks like a very slippery slope to me. What's next? No contact with Christians because that could also mean turning their backs on the persecution and suffering they suffered for not embracing the religion those people offered? Learn about them but don't mingle?

I'm having a very difficult time trying to understand why you think other Jews should or should not do something? Is that how it works? I mean, would she telling you that you're wrong, and you should do it that way be the right thing to do? I don't get it. Why such concern for how others live their (religious) lives?

There are a number of people here, who celebrate religious festivals which are not their own, so according to you, they're all wrong and shouldn't do that.

I'm actually a little baffled.. since I don't believe anyone has the authority to point out how another should conduct their religious beliefs, short of those people hurting others because of it.

 

I'm going to do my best to respond, speaking for myself on this issue - and with the caveat I'm not very well versed in Jewish law or otherwise, but I think I have the general concept correct. Religions, by their very nature, have a number of rules. Those rules are surely open to interpretation, the way I practice my Judiasm is very different than Esther (I know she is observant, keeps kosher, I don't do these things). However as someone who was raised observant, it was always quite clear Christian traditions, such as Santa or a Christmas stocking, had no place in our house. to me that is a fundamental tenant of being jewish and no observant Jew i know would accept Christmas in their house. There are Jews who do (generally interfaith or reform) and I was responding to the reasoning given by Kim's friend.

As to your bolded comments, I'm speaking as Jew who feels people who identify themselves as Jews should not celebrate other holidays. I wish I could find a better way to articulate it. It's hard to go against the norm in this world. It's hard to miss events, etc because the US operates on a Christian calendar, not the Jewish calendar. Sandy Kofaux had to sit out a WS game because it was on Yom Kippur. To me, when people see other Jews having a "Channunkah bush" (which isn't from any Jewish history, obviously) they assume I have it and I'm in the position of having to explain myself. it simply isn't a Jewish custom. Does that make sense? I'm not asking the world to change for me, i think we have come a long way in accomodating and respecting other religions.

Regarding the final bolded comment, which doesn't make a ton of sense without my quoted comment, I'm speaking to how our Jewish literature guides us in terms of observance. To be a BAC is to accept Jesus as your savior, correct? The Jews do not believe Jesus was our savior, so if a BAC were to celebrate Yom Kippur that would seem odd and "against his religion."

I know this issue of "how we practice religion" isn't unique to Judaism, that's why there are many different Christian denominations and many sects of being Jew.

And I appreciate how this sounds - and I'm certainly not infringing on anyone's freedoms, just expressing my opinion and why this issue bothers me. I guess it might be interesting to hear from a Christian who lives in Israel where the work day is Sunday-Thursday and they are the minority.

 

Let me see if I can make more sense of why this confuses me. To the first bolded part: You are guided by your literature. Yet, you choose which observances to keep and which to not right? So, why is it so wrong if someone else does the same, in another area? As in, chooses to not follow something? Aren't you also in essence "going against those teachings/guides?"

The second bolded part, may be against someone's religion, but only if they celebrate it with belief. Not if they just celebrate a version of it (and their kids will soon know it's all make believe). I light a menorah in my house every year, I'm not Jewish, and I don't beleive. It's a lovely tradition, and I want to do it. Shouldn't that be enough without someone else insisting that I'm actually following a belief?

As for the last bolded part. I live in a Muslim country, where only recently the weekend changed to Sat-Sun. It was always Fri-Sat because Muslims hold Friday sacred. I belong to a minority group, and my family's religious 'day of rest' did not coincide with the holidays. We got one day off for Christmas (working people) and as a student I gave a number of exams on Easter Sunday. It was not right, many here also keep insisting we we're a completely "free" nation. So, I can empathize with you there.

 

The idea of the oil is to have fried foods, not specifically those foods. Many choose french fries or other somesuch.

You seem to have missed a vital point in all of this. We are discussing what our thoughts on this topic are. I would never ever judge anyone for what they choose to do. I would never tell them anything. However, this is being discussed and just as (I wish I remembered her name) Jellybean shared that her friend celebrated christmas, I am sharing my point of view on this and saying how we see it from our point of view. Moving past that might be doable. But again, one of the biggest parts of our religion is that there be no other god. So to celebrate another god is going against one of the bases of our religion. I'm not judging her for doing that. I'm simply stating the fact that although her friend views it as tolerance, it is actually a mixture of two beliefs, which go against each other.

I don't care what other people do in their own homes and again, would never judge them for doing so. I have no concern as to how others live. I am sharing my point of view in this thread just like the other tens of posters did before m.

 

The vital point in this is.... The woman is decorating her house, and celebrating Santa, who is not a god. He was just a man who helped people all through the year. Not specifically during Christmastime, and neither did he go around doing charity only for Christians. Later, he evolved into a red suited fat guy, who gifts only children on December 25th. He then became an adoptable tradition, and no one is less devout in their faith if they love him, and welcome him into their home.

I really don't understand how that could go against any God or religion. It just comes across as strange that people would even think that. But, to each their own, I guess.

 

Which means eating Latkes specifically during Chanukah is a non-religious tradition unlike eating matza during Pesach or to use a non-food example, the use of the lulav and etrog during Sukkot.

 

Schools have gift shops??? :unknw:

In the school I went to we really didnt discuss christmas and religion, religion was taught up until the 9th grade and that was only once a fortnight. I remember debating with the teacher because his views against other religions were not good at all, they were horrible and unfair really also about his other views ( eg. adoptions, mix race couples and children etc.) which he shouldnt of been saying even though they were his views. Not something 14/15 year olds need to hear! My graduating class there were only two people who did religion studies and that was by distance education as the school wouldnt offer it

 

I grew up in a public school system in Kansas, entering Kindergarten in 1980. I was fortunate it seems that my school system incorporated music and practices from multiple religions during the holiday season. They did not exclude Christmas, rather they encompassed others who celebrated other religions. In my son's current school system here in Ohio, they are doing the same. He is learning about the many religious celebrations at the holiday season, not just Christmas.

And I am truly only referring to school here. Of course in my home, we practice Christianity and celebrate Christmas. No, I do not display any symbols of another religious holiday. I am not implying anyone should do that (celebrate another holiday).

 

I knew you would nail me on the literature stuff - the whole if you follow one rule in the Bible, why not all of them discussion. I tried to address this in the Den. Basically, you can be a Jew and not believe in G-D. If you do believe in G-D, it's my understanding that observant Jews follow "his rules" to get closer to him. (I'm oversimplifying here). For me, I believe in the importance of the Jewish state of Israel - and part of that, to me, is marrying a Jew, having Jewish children (which I have done). But I'm not trying to get closer to G-D - I am trying to preserve Jewish culture and tradition. Ugh, I realize how circular this sounds and maybe it's because it's not completely rational.

But to your question about choosing not follow something, I really don't see the whole Christmas in the home thing as optional. Unfortunately I'm not well versed enough in the Torah and it's rules - but I do know some of the rules (keeping kosher) had to do with health, food cleanliness, things that had a practical application and now are part of religion.

 

Yes. That's the bottom line. And I will reiterate. I agree to each their own. I'd never say anything to anyone about the above. No matter what their views were, or my views are. I can discuss it in this forum though.

Yes. It's not Jewish law. It's Jewish custom though.

 

It baffles me as to why people are so afraid of seeing other people celebrate their faith, traditions and holidays. If the school gift shop has santa's, candy canes and menorahs for sale....no one is saying you HAVE to buy it or celebrate it. Heck...EVERY store you walk into this time of year is decked in Christmas decor. Are these people planning on taking on retail America next?

Bottom line I think this ban is over the top. Sounds like a few people who have too much fear and way too much time on their hands in creating this fuss. They really should put their energy into doing something positive and self-serving for another human in need. That would achieve a lot more than preventing the sale of a simple candy cane. Sounds like these people have been reading far too much of Dr Suess' Grinch.

 

I've stayed out of this discussion thus far but I really like how you said that. Couldn't agree more.

 

If you read the second article in the original post you would have seen that this policy has been in place for years so it is the people that oppose the policy that have too much time on their hands.

In any case, non-faith-based schools should not be seen to be promoting any religion and these things count as religion.