NTR Is President Obama being insensitive?

I wouldn't have cared if Obama was Muslim or not (wouldn't have voted for him either way), but for a lot of voters I do think religious affiliation is important. It's not important to me anymore, but only because like you said, most of them lie about it. A true religious affiliation would let voters know about values, at least some of them. If I see that a candidate is Catholic, in my mind I should be able to assume they are a practicing Catholic agreeing with the tenants of their faith and therefore again abortion.

 

oh no - rather I think she gets it quite well...

I think the majority of the post was tongue in cheek - not sure about the last part...

 

I think this is pretty ironic, given that just prior to the election in 2008, there was a huge scandal involving something said by the Christian minister from the church Obama regularly attended in Chicago.

 

Your right, I have some strong opinions about Christianity as a whole. I tend to lump them all into the Christian right and I know that is not really accurate. There are a lot of liberal and moderate Christians out there. So I apologize for that. I will say that I have really close and loving relationships with many Christians and even though I disagree with their beliefs more and more everyday, it doesn't change the fact that I love them. I would also never tell them they couldn't build a curch anywhere they wanted or tell them they couldn't worship the way they feel is right for them. It is their buisness and I'm glad we have this freedom in this country.

By the way, have any of you been to the ground zero, lower Manhatten area. That is a really busy area. A muslim community center 2 blocks away would hardly be noticed with all the other buildings and hustle and bustle that is already there. I don't find it disrespectful at all. Along with the fact that Sept 11 was an attack on America by Alqueda(sp?) not an attack on Christians by Muslims. I find it a very egocentric veiwpoint for Christians to think that this is their country and no one elses.

 

Heck, even Gladstone at Cracked weighed in on this issue. (NSFW language) He brought up a really good point though:

 

I don't know if anyone watched the commentary I linked from Keith Olbermann but this piece from Roger Ebert (which Donita posted on FB and I stole!) is a MUST READ!! Please read all the way to the end. His "Green Field" concept is superb!! No matter which side of the political spectrum you find yourself, I think this article is worth reading. And a retail mall? Really? People are objecting a mosque (really an Islamic community center) planned to be built two NYC blocks away but no one has a problem with a retail mall being built over the top of what, for all intents and purposes, is a burial ground to the victims of 9/11? Seriously?

Roger Ebert: Ten Things I Know About the Mosque

 

That is an excellent article. Thanks Kim (and Donita!).

 

thank you Kim! i am literally sitting here with tears on my cheeks after reading The Green Field. awesome. :good:

 

I would prefer a green field to a mall and subway station. :/

 

Me too. And that piece made me teary as well, Rachel. :cry:

 

Thank you Kim(Donita too!). That was a great article and I LOVE the idea of The Green Field. So beautifully said...

 

That was a good article. I still dont completly understand why people have a problem with this being built? is it only because its not a Christian center? Would someone mind answering that?

Thanks,
Brandy

 

Brandy, I don't think anyone can answer it without revealing their prejudice against Muslims. No one will answer the question of how far away from Ground Zero is acceptable.

 

Unfortunately money will win out over a green field. The property IS sacred, BUT worth millions because of its location. Those in power are not looking to find a peaceful place for families of the victims to go to, they are looking to see how they can get the most bang for their buck.
As for the community center I don't really have an opinion either way, I don't live there, I did not lose anyone personally and therefore think it should be voted on by the victim's families. Does the Islamic group have the right to build it there, ABSOLUTELY. Is it in poor judgment but not for the reason most believe. I don't see this center ever being truly accepted if built. I see graffiti, vandalism and protests from those who are against it. If the Islamic group wants to extend good faith to the victim's family (not the general right wing American public) they should move it somewhere else, UNLESS a vote by the victim's families shows they are not against it. What a sight it would be to see a victim's family member shaking hands with the head of the center on opening day. What a gesture of goodwill and acceptance that would be for our country.

 

Like the rest of the public, some family members are for it and some are against it. I personally don't see why anyone but the owners of the property get to weigh in on it. I don't want to put what I do with my property up to a national popularity contest. This uproar is ridiculous. It goes against all that America stands for. It's an international embarrassment and IMO a "win" for the terrorists and all those that hate America. If this community center/mosque had the overwhelming support of the American public (or better yet, was a total non-issue) we would show the world we live our founding values, that America is truly a melting pot of religious tolerance/pluralism. Instead, we're sending the message that it's rhetoric we follow when it suits us.

 

This is precisely why it would make such a big statement.

 

Ok, noted... there have been recent talks now of building a pig slaughter house beside the mosque.. it it thier legal right... Obviosly insensitive, but legal right... I wonder how everyone would react to that.

 

I am saying that I am not predjudiced because I do believe in freedom of religion. If Jews had crashed the planes into the twin towers I would also be against them putting up a place of worship so close to ground zero. Same goes for any religion, be it Christianity, Hinduism, whatever. For me its just plane insensitive, thats all and that is my opinion. But of course they do have every right

 

What you are describing is prejudice. Framing it as insensitivity does not change that. Stating a belief in freedom of religion does not change it either. Freedom of religion and prejudice are not mutually exclusive.

 

Why is it insensitive? I really don't get how building an Islamic community center (or a church or synagogue) two NYC blocks away from Ground Zero is insensitive. Can someone explain that? Seems insensitive to me to blame an entire religion for the wrongdoings of a few sick individuals of an extremist sect. Innocent Muslims also lost their lives that day working in those towers.

Insensitive to me is building retail space directly on what for all intents and purposes is the burial ground for victims of 9/11.

 

Just more food for thought: My ILs spent a month in Germany this summer and came back amazed and in love. They toured the country, drank the beer and soaked up the history. The one thing that stuck with me from their travels is that all over the country the people are still remorseful for WWII and Hitler's actions. I think this is a good comparison. Hitler was one man, with an army. He ordered the atrocities and those who went against him faced the same atrocities. There was no freedom of speech or religion, you went with the Nazis or you died, were tortured or left everything you knew behind. Present day Germans are not responsible for Hitler and his Nazi army's actions, BUT they still accept responsibility for it. Sound like a certain terrorist we all know???

I think most of us know that ALL Muslims are not terrorists, like most religions it is a small number of zealots who act in a way that brings out a passionate reaction from those they disagree with or see as the enemy. However, given the events of the last nine years and for most of us alive today this was the most traumatic event we have and hopefully will witness happen to our country and its citizens. I'm not saying that ALL Muslims have to take the blame, but understand that as long as people are still acting/killing/torturing in the name of Allah, there will be prejudice and resistance. This group does not NEED to ask permission to build their community center, but like the Germans, for the sake of peace and harmony within the community wouldn't it be better if they didn't build it where it is planned? Wouldn't it go a long way in the minds of those most affected by 9/11 if they reached out with a gesture of goodwill and said "We do have the right to build here, but we understand this may cause some pain so in respect to that we will build somewhere else as a gesture of goodwill from the local Muslim community"? Think of the peace it would bring. If they build it in the present day spot no one will have peace, harmony or goodwill. There will always be some crazy protesting, vandalizing, or doing worse on both sides. The zealots will come out from both sides and what started out as a "community center" will become a "controversy center".

 

I don't think that is a fair comparison at all. The Nazi's systematically discriminated against, rounded up and then murdered millions of people and many Germans were either complicit in these actions, or did nothing. Many Germans might accept responsibility but I don't know anybody personally that blames those who were either very young or had not been born yet for what happened. In comparison, what happened on September 11th, 2001 was done by a small group of extremists and it was done without warning. How do you expect people to stop something from happening when nobody knows about it?

 

Thank you, Richard. I was trying to figure out how to say just that. :good:

 

That Roger Ebert link had so many excellent points. Thank you for the link.

 

This is my point as well... This is what I'm saying about being a bigger person and not putting it up there because people are hurt by it. A lot of people can not understand why it's insensitive, but I am one of the many who do and these are my feelings as well... its a fantastic act of peace from their part and a huge gesture of goodwill. I believe Americans will step back and look up to Muslims for this. It's not that I don't want the community center there because I don't like Muslims, for me it's to keep the peace.

 

Yet clearly there are many people (including as mentioned earlier in the thread, victims and their families) that support the building of this community centre. Why should those that object to this project be able to veto everybody else. The unfortunate truth is that regardless of where this community centre is, people will object to it. If that was not the case why has nobody (in this thread or elsewhere) been able to answer the simple question of where it would be appropriate to build it? The other problem (as has been pointed out) with the logic of those that oppose this project is that the people behind this project are not connected in any way to those that were responsible for the September 11th attacks. All the terrorist were men. Do you object to the building of a gym for men where this community centre is planned for? All the terrorists wore clothes. Do you object to a clothes shop being placed in the same location (or for that matter on the site of the world trade centre itself)? How tenuous of a link is too tenuous for something not to be "insensitive"?

 

Oops! One of the "Ground Zero Mosque" funders is also a large shareholder in Fox News. So in turn, Fox News is funding this. Why is Jon Stewart the only one who really gets to the truth?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/stewart-fox-prince-alwaleed_n_692234.html

 

I saw this this morning. So glad someone is covering this. Fascinating and so disturbing.

 

i love the way he uses humor to cut through the BS :good:

 

I love Jon Stewart! My boys watch him every day too. So funny but so right on.

 

You should check out this article by Charlie Brooker. Very funny (in an ironic and quite-scary-because-some-of-it-is-true kind of way).

 

I think it is ridiculous to ask American Muslims to "be the bigger person" here when they haven't done anything wrong. I think the Christians in this country need to be "the bigger person" and stop protesting against the Mosque. I think if I were Muslim, I'd be really frustrated at people saying that I am somehow responsible for something I had no part in and should just bow down and follow the Christian directives on this. In fact, that would make me want to stand up taller and prouder of my religion and beliefs and stand my ground. I hope they do stand their ground. They have every right to build the community center.

 

Why I agree with the mosque being built, I have noticed its not just Christians who are against it being built. Also many christians are not against it. I still don't under stand the big deal about it..but also have seen a lot more against it then for it. Most people who are against it are hearing or reading rumors that its gonna open on 9/11 but I have read it won't open until 2013. So I am not sure what the big deal is... Brandy

 

2jellybeans said it right on!!!

 

You are entitled to your opinion, that is what makes a good debate. However, Al Qaeda systematically planned and set forth the attacks that killed thousands of people. This is not on the scale of the Nazis autrocities, but try explaining that to a mother who raising her child as a single mother because her husband was killed in one of the towers. You are correct in that September 11th was carried out by a small group of extremists, but Hitler did not start with an army either. It takes a seed to grow a Sequoia.
I also NEVER said that ALL Germans were to blame for what the Hitler and his army did, nor did I say they should be to blame. What I DID say was that they are remorseful for what people representing THEIR country did to millions. My MIL was in awe and could not say enough good things about the people of Germany, she cannot wait to go back.
As for people not knowing about the plan for the 9/11, I am not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but if we are to believe the media that our government had knowledge that an attack was imminent, do you also expect me to believe these extremists families and friends did not have some idea what they were up to? I do not believe for one minute 9/11 attacks were planned and set forth by those who died at the control of the planes, there were many other minds involved that are still alive plotting and planning against those they see as the infidels. I also want to clarify I do not believe ALL Muslims hate us and are planning attacks against us. I
I also want to add I have never said the group does not have the right to build their center where they have it planned. It is their land to do with as they see fit. What, I have said is if they do build it where it is planned, I do not believe for one minute they will ever have any peace. Protesters will be outside their doors, vandals will attack and whether we agree with it or not we all know it will happen. For the sake of themselves and the community wouldn't it be better to find a compromise?