NTR Is President Obama being insensitive?

Are you aware of how many of those same Muslims supported the war? Are you aware of how many Muslims face a real threat from these terrorists on a daily basis? Or have families back home who do? Do you honestly think they're just sitting there in America, halfheartedly condemning the attacks when 1) People of their own faith commit such atrocities and stand up to destroy any respect people may have for them 2) Pose a serious threat to their own religion 3) Kill in the name of their God. If the roles were reversed, what would you do to prove you were unlike the fanatics of your religion? Fade off into the sunset? So really, is this what some Americans want? Muslims to "not do anything purposefully to bring more pain." What should they do? Not build a community center near Ground Zero? Not build one in NY? Not build any more mosques in the United States whatsoever? Maybe all pack up and leave, because just being there could be considered purposely brining pain to someone right? Let me as you where you (general) would want the line drawn if it were you, and your religion? Are you out there saying "Let's not build any more churches because the Phelps are morons, and if we allow churches which could remind people of their disgraceful behavior, we'd be hard hearted, cold and arrogant?"

 

:clapping: :bow2: I would give you a million points if I could. Your perspective is so unique and important for all of us to hear and remember. Fabulous post.

 

:bow2:

 

You have said it better than I could have, as usual!

Thanks for lending your perspective, Anne. I think some people tend to lose sight of the big picture and things that happen outside of their own world.

 

For those of you that do not want it built, just be ready to to support the same side when a Christian church/Jewish Synagogue, etc... is denied to same permit. If we start making decisions based on faith, we are setting a precedent which will snowball. To continue to provide the right to freedom of religion, we need to offer that right to all our citizens, not just a token few.

 

It's worth reading the whole thing, the end is particularly strong.

Why we should build it.

 

I cannot believe I am hearing this in 2010! I am a conservative christian, but this kind of religeous oppression sickens me. Does anyone remember that freedom of religion is what our country was founded on? Of course that's probably what you biggots are hoping for- "Why don't all those muslims just get out of here anyways?".

 

Yes, I do think they are sitting here in America half heartedly condemning the attacks. Though I thoroughly understand they would not commit such acts of violence themselves, I do believe that they feel a sense of justice when it occurs. I don't care where Muslims build mosques.....as long as it is not on the ground where other Muslims have perpetrated terrorist acts. As far as Fred Phelps, I condemn him & his hate-filled beliefs....and would support denying him the right to build a church anywhere...using any state or local ordinance to subvert his plans - there are some cases that religious freedom is not absolute, just like freedom of speech is not absolute. Building a church/mosque/temple in an area that will incite more discord, create more pain & is blatantly provocative can & should be prohibited. Liberals everywhere should give a large kiss to Fred Phelps rear end for all the ammunition he has given them. And....as repulsive as his ideology is.....he has not bombed a building & killed thousands of people. As for McVeigh.....I think America....this nation with a 78% majority of citizens claiming a Christian faith.....it was clear what we thought of his actions & the fact that he has been moldering in a grave for years leaves no doubt to our resolve to deal with the actions he took in support of his beliefs. So please....bring up Phelps when he actually does something besides show what a wicked idiot he is & bring up McVeigh when you see right wing extremists building a church on the grounds of the federal building in Oklahoma City - that is when you will have a cogent argument involving those two individuals.

 

i think the point is though that the only reason it would do that is because people are laying the blame for 9-11 at the feet of all Muslims rather than at the feet of the few extremists who are actually to blame. and THAT is intolerance.

 

The proposed community center is not being built at Ground Zero. It is to be built two blocks away in what was once a Burlington Coat Factory. There is nothing at all sacred about Burlington Coat Factory.

And McVeigh is exactly a case in point. We blamed him for his actions, not his church. We need to blame Al Quaeda, not all Muslims. We are at war with Al Quaeda, not Islam.

 

I think this is the whole point though. If you did see someone proposing a Christian church near that site, it would be regarded as a sign of healing or peace. If Al-Quaeda was proposing building a mosque near ground zero, outrage would be justified and swift. This has absolutely nothing to do with 9-11 though. We wouldn't even be hearing about it if the terrorists hadn't claimed Islam as their religion. We should be thanking our lucky stars they didn't claim Christianity as their religion. Killing Americans has no more to do with Islam than it has to do with Christianity. Let's direct our anger towards the people actually responsible for our pain and sadness.

 

I personally am not laying the blame at the feet of all Muslims for 9/11 - but I am laying at their feet a charge of insensitivity, arrogance, provacation & a callous disregard for the pain of others. I AM intolerant of actions taken with the full knowledge that they will cause unrelenting pain to others, when any other option is available. It would take a fool to think that the Muslims building this center/mosque are not doing it with the intention of drawing a line in the sand & daring anyone to cross it.

I do understand that some can see a clear, distinct line between Muslim extremists & the Muslim faith as a whole but it is not so clear to others. The stats I have seen place the number of worldwide Muslims who consider themselves to support radical, fundamental extremist beliefs at 7-13%...that is over 6 MILLION members of the faith.....a far cry from the 5or 6 "Christians" who were a part of McVeigh's group. It is disingenuous to act like there are only a handful of Muslims who would support terrorist acts....it is in the millions so I do think that reflects on the Muslim faith as a whole. If Muslims want to be understood as having no enmity toward America....then they need to recognize when their words or actions are provocative. I realize the building is in a building two blocks away....but the leaders of the Cordoba Initiative CHOSE that area to make a point that it was near Ground Zero & that the center would be used as a place to bring different faiths together - but if that were truly the aim, once so much opposition flared up.....and they would not consider moving....clearly their goal is division, not healing.

 

Or someone mired in his/her own biases. Read the article I posted for another perspective. Here it is again. They are already meeting there and have been for quite some time. This story is whipped up by spinmeisters like Gingrich who wish people to think it is arrogant and drawing a line. He is well spoken, but he is wrong. Wrong about their intention, and wrong about what is the American thing to do.

eta: typo

 

I guess I still don't understand what makes you think that their intentions are negative. Maybe they are building to try to show that this is the true Islam, not 9-11. Maybe they are trying to support, heal, and minister to the community. Why the assumption that their motivations are evil?

 

In the article I posted they have excepts from an interview the builders. Their intentions are exactly as you describe. They are not evil.

 

People are judged by their actions, not their words. I clearly understand the announced intention to create a place of healing....but when the leaders clearly see & hear how hurtful their plans are - their refusal to reconsider reveals the true nature of their hearts. If they truly want to heal, they will chose another location in deference to those who are facing pain from their actions. I have not read anything any politician has written or heard anything they have said. I have voluntarily restricted my reading to the statements of the group planning the build the mosque and the 9/11 survivors & families who lost loved ones - those are the only viewpoints I want to consider at this time. I did hear Obama's viewpoint....while he declined commenting on this particular issue, he did make a statement on religious freedom. I appreciate that....but he failed to acknowledge that religious freedom is not absolute - meeting places & behaviors are subject to laws & ordinances. Frankly, I hope the group finds a better location - if they do build that close to Ground Zero it will not bring healing or understanding - it will promote more disrespect & suspicion.

 

I need to remind everyone that you need to adhere to our TOS:

Thanks.

 

Is it a mosque?
Quote from THIS article:
First here are the facts: The building in question is planned to be a Muslim community center, a sort of YMCA (or, I suppose, YMMA). The plans are for it to have fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court), a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant and a cooking school, exhibition space, a library, art studios, a 9/11 memorial--the impudence! the outrage!--and childcare facilities (which no doubt will soon be referred to as a "Manhattan Madrasa"). And it's also going to house a mosque.
But calling the entire building a mosque is a bit like referring to the Empire State Building as a 103-story Walgreens because the pharmacy chain has a store on the ground floor.

Why don't they pick a different spot?
Because they OWN THE LAND. There is already a building there that they are using for religious purposes. Apparently the whole hoopla here is whether or not they can have a nicer building.

This is surrender!
In order to surrender to someone, you (by definition) have to be in conflict with them. We are not at war with the work-a-day Muslims of New York City.

This is insensitive!
Even though we might want it to be different, laws are not passed based on whether they will hurt someones feelings.

 

I acknowledge I should have chosen my words with more care. I will be more cautious & apologize for the lack of discretion.

 

Photos of stuff that is the same distance from Ground Zero as the proposed community centre. Very hallowed.

 

I'm not afraid. To me it is called disrespect. Those directly effected (personal connection to people who lost lives) have stated that they do not want the mosque/community center built so close to ground zero. They have not said they do not want Muslims to be free to practice their religion. Not permitting this mosque to be built is not denying Muslims an ability to practice their religion or practice outreach. No one has said that they want any existing mosques destructed. All that is being said is that a new mosque (and yes I know it has other functions than just being a mosque but one is that of a mosque) not be built so close to where some fringe members of this religion killed so many. Why can't other peoples sensitivities be considered?

 

oh and to the image links so what. Those businesses had nothing to do with what is happening or what happened on 9/11 they did not have any connection (fringe or otherwise) to those who did the murdering

 

But those street vendors are profiting from what happened. See the towers in some of their merchandise and how many people wore FDNY stuff before 2001? (not that its not their perfectly good right to sell officially licensed merchandise but it wouldn't be selling if there wasn't a Sept 11) (lets not get into bootleg knockoffs)

How close is too close for this community centre? 3 blocks? 10? Murfeesboro Tenn?

Islam didn't do the attacks, people who claim to be Muslim did. What would you like the millions of Muslims to do? I hear "they are sitting back and doing nothing", they ARE. Its like Baptists telling Episcopalians to stop doing something. Same root, different denomination.

 

The people who perpetrated the bombings are Muslim who claim their doctrine directly from the Koran. And they have the support of millions of Muslims. Where? Anyplace out of direct sight of where the WTC stood would be fine - so the people who suffered through 9/11 don't have to look at the big finger that is being given them by the group wanting to build there.

 

I keep seeing the bolded part being stated and while it may be true, it is not the whole truth, some families and friends are against the mosque but other are In support of it Why are the views they hold less important than the views of the anti's? In fact Michael Bloomberg who is also in favour of the project was at a fund-raiser with some of the victims and families recently and reported

source

You say that as if the proposed community centre is going to tower above everything and be visible for miles, Now I have never been to New York, but I did grow up in London and If it is anything similar in street design the Centre will not even be visible further down the street it is on, let alone from two blocks away. This picture is a bit exaggerated but it gets the point across that nothing is being actually built, the plan is to convert an already existing building with a prayer room somewhere inside it.

 

I love this! I need to send it to my dad- the man who watches 5hrs of Fox news a day and wants to have Glen Beck over for dinner. :laughing:

 

Hear hear.

 

oh your dad too? LOL...first words out of my dad's mouth "there go the (expletive) liberals again"

 

Bing. You TOTALLY get it!

 

I didn't have the time to read every post in this thread but I wanted to say that I grew up in New York City and I personally lost people I loved on 9/11. I have no problem with this center being built.

 

I have a feeling that people who would feel pain or sadness by a community center/mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero would also feel that same pain seeing anything Muslim anywhere. I don't think it's fair to penalize this group because some people have bad feelings about an entire religion because of a few evil destructive nutcases that claimed that religion as their own. (Although it's pretty clear they weren't practicing what the Koran teaches.)

 

It looks like there is some speculation that they may end up moving it after all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/ground-zero-mosque-to-mov_n_684030.html

I never mentioned this when I posted before, but they have never ruled out moving it. I listened to this interview the other day with one of the main people in the planning of the center. It's pretty interesting. She talks about the meetings they have had with families of those who lost loved ones on 9/11.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/12/i_fear_for_my_country_muslim

 

yes it all sounded nice. Then the bottom line of the story read
UPDATE: According to the Park 51 Twitter account, Haaretz's report of a move is "completely false."
twitter link
so yes they HAVE ruled out a move and state "We are committed to plans of building Park 51"

 

I don't know the source of your figures but they are obviously incorrect. Even if 6 million Muslims did support "radical, fundamental extremist" beliefs (I would be interested in how your source defines this), this is not your stated 7 to 13 percent but 0.38 percent (there are approximately 1.5 billion Muslims). If 6 million people represent 13% of Muslims, that puts the number of Muslims at 46 million.

You are demonstrating exactly the type of prejudice and incorrect logic that underpin your whole argument. Lets follow the thought process here:

1. You give credit for what has been done to McVeigh to a single country's Christians (regardless of individual beliefs) for what was done by a secular police force following the laws of a secular country.
2. You (correctly) dismiss blame for what Phelps does since he only represents an insignificant proportion of Christians.
3. You then do the opposite by blaming all Muslims (regardless of their beliefs and where they live) for the actions of what represents just as insignificant a proportion of Muslims.
4. You then claim that Muslims are not doing enough to fight against Al-Qaeda and imply that they should show their "resolve in dealing with the actions they've taken in support of their beliefs" (presumably by capturing, sentencing and then killing all members of Al-Qaeda).

Let me remind you of a few facts:

1. The United States is a country. Muslims are not a country.
2. Al-Qaeda was based in Afghanistan which was toppled by NATO forces led by the United States. None of them have managed to do what you claim you want Muslims to do. If the most powerful military can't do what you expect, how do you expect individual Muslims to it?
3. There are extremist Christians (responsible for a greater numbers of deaths than Muslim extremists) in many parts of the world. As a Christian, should we hold you personally responsible for their behaviour?

These "sensitivities" are a smokescreen for a desire for revenge or their own prejudices. They are not being considered because by succumbing to people's prejudices you are bringing yourself down to the level of the people that are ultimately responsible for the attacks. Discrimination, hate and ultimately killing is what happens when people's prejudices are allowed to dictate behaviour.