Issues with Boyfriend's twin brother...

Hi Everyone, I am trying as best as possible to educate myself about this.

I am not a twin, however my boyfriend is. We have been dating for about 2 and half years so far and from the beginning his twin brother has caused us both grief. When things became serious between us the other twin was even meaner. I have been shoved, threatened, named called and gossiped about by the other twin, for no reason it seems-I barely see the other twin.

My boyfriend assures me it's nothing and that I should just give his brother time to mature and grow, but we are now all in our mid 20s and the problems are not going away. We have approached the other twin, together and separately and expressed our concerns, but this did not work. He just seems to be angry EVERY DAY. His moods are also up and down. Sometimes (and I mean rarely) he is civil, other times, like during family events that I am invited to he is mean, cold, and ignores me all together. What is most hurtful is that he gossips and says demeaning things about me to our mutual friends. He tells them I have stolen his brother and "changed" him and that my boyfriend is not happy and that I have just brain washed him. The list goes on....

I am quite upset over this and I have tried to be as understanding as possible. I have even offered to my boyfriend that we would take a "break" so he could figure things out with his twin, but this was not an idea he accepted.

What do I do? Not do? Please help. We have tried everything to make the other twin happy. We tried doing things with him, inviting him to place and events with us, and he just flat out refused or ignored us.

My boyfriend and I are considering marriage and we are worried that the issues we are having with his twin will never go away.

 

It is hard when your twin gets into a serious relationship (mine got married in May) Especially when its someone you wouldn't have chosen for yourself. (I wouldn't have looked twice at my bil but he makes her happy so I bite my tounge quite a bit)

Really, its not your issue to have to deal with. Your boyfriend needs to talk to his brother and tell him that you are with him and that he either has to deal with it, get over it or forget it. If your boyfriend doesn't want to do it then you should re-evaluate your relationship. I'm sure no one wants to get into an ultimatum situation but he does need to understand that there will be more than eachother in their lives.

Your friends, if they are real friends, will see though his bitterness and make their own decisions based on that.

Have they had much separation in their lives? A lot of times there is a lot of resentment when different things start happening.

 

Twin_Curious, I just wanted to say that I agree with Kendra on this issue, and also that I noticed how in another thread you said that your boyfriend was preparing to slow exlude his twin from your lives.

While I understand that, I do think it's not going to help the situation. The brother sounds as if he's jealous - removing him from your lives (while understandable with how nasty he sounds) won't help with any resentment he has. In fact, it'll probably make the aggravation worse; he might see you solely responsible for that.

In the end, really, it is your decision on how to deal with this, but it's a sad thing if it ends up with their own relationship ending. Perhaps your boyfriend needs to tell him that, instead of just slowly moving away? As Kendra said, ultimatums aren't exactly the most favourable situation to get into, but perhaps if the brother sees what he has to lose he'll stop. If he doesn't, then at least the family split wasn't just something you and your partner initiated as a last-ditch tatic.

 

Thanks for the advise ladies. I guess my boyfriend and I are running out of ideas. We have been experiencing these issues with his brother for over 2 years now. We have tried to talk to him together, my boyfriend has tried to talk to his brother ALONE several times and nothing has helped
I agree with you that distancing ourselves from him may not be the best way, but what else can we do when he is always swearing , shouting and arguing when we are around? He even said he finds us "annoying together" I don't know what to do, I guess I will have to keep swallowing it all.
My boyfriend believes his twin has anger management problems and depression. Is this a possibility in cases like this?
The parents of the twins have spoken to the disgruntled brother, but again nothing has helped. The only thing that has stopped is the violence. The brother finally stopped hitting my boyfriend, which is a relief because that was getting out of hand. He was hitting him/at times punching him in front of peers and friends, seemingly unaware that other people would think this was inappropriate....

-What should I do then? What do I tell my boyfriend?

 

Has your boyfriend told his brother that you are a non-negotionable person in his life? If a flat out, no wishy washy, lay down the law conversation has been had (that you have witnessed, he may tell you hes done it but he might not have) then you might consider distancing.

What is their relationship like when you are not around? Do they have separate lives beyond their love lives? You said you are all in your mid 20s, how mid 20s?

 

We are 23 and 25. He had told his brother "flat out" what his intentions are with me. He has told his brother he intends to marry me, his parents have too.

When they are together without me around, they still argue according to my boyfriend. When my boyfriend and I first met he confided in me that his brother hits him (in the head) I was scared because I had never heard anything like this before. I thought it was an isolated incident but learned very quickly that was not the case. My boyfriend finally told his parents and since they both live at home, the parents threatened to kick his brother out if he did not cut out the violence. Since then he had stopped. They have not suggested he get help for his anger issues though.
They do seem to have separate lives. My boyfriend is currently doing his master's program in an intensive field. His brother unfortunately did not meet the academic requirements of any schools and is looking into US schools at the moment. He is always just at home playing on the computer or with video games. He has a girlfriend of his own who comes from a very strict Indian family and so there are restrictions on their meetings and he can't do things with her he would like, eg. travel, camping etc. He can't stay over at her house and she at his etc. she is also 25...
I don't know, perhaps his relationship problems make him this bitter?
I am trying hard to understand, it's hard. I wish he could just be happy and find his place in life instead of constantly commenting on mine and my boyfriends (and criticizing)

I just want peace this is sooo complicated.

 

Hi again, to anyone out there.....
I don't know what to do anymore....my boyfriend's twin is getting more and more cruel with his comments and behaviour towards me. I have been with my boyfriend for 2.5 years and I don't think I can take it all anymore I love him dearly, but what am I to do. Accept that I will be stepped on for the rest of my life? Should I consider this the price to pay for love?
I am starting to experience some depression over the issue since it has been going on for so long now.I constantly feel torn on this issue.
Please anyone, out there, any advice?

 

QUOTE(Twin_Curious @ Aug 25 2008, 02:42 PM) [snapback]946270[/snapback]
Hi again, to anyone out there.....
I don't know what to do anymore....my boyfriend's twin is getting more and more cruel with his comments and behaviour towards me. I have been with my boyfriend for 2.5 years and I don't think I can take it all anymore I love him dearly, but what am I to do. Accept that I will be stepped on for the rest of my life? Should I consider this the price to pay for love?
I am starting to experience some depression over the issue since it has been going on for so long now.I constantly feel torn on this issue.
Please anyone, out there, any advice?



If things are as bad as you say they are, and his brother treats your boyfriend that badly, I would definetley consider distancing yourselves from him, how hard that may be. It might be alot better if at least for a little while there is no contact. I can't imagine this situation being good for your boyfriend. Especially since he seems to be violent with his own brother. There is no excuse for violence whatsoever.
Maybe if his brother realises that you two are serious and are willing to exclude him from your lives he'll realise what he is about to lose if he doesn't smarten up. He sounds like he has some serious issues going on but if he's not willing to get help I do not think you can do much about that.

If your boyfriend isn't willing to cutt contact with his brother for at least some time than I would consider getting out.
You should not accept being treated this badly and if your boyfriend really loves you than he will not allow and accept it either you being treated badly either, even if it is his twin.

I love my sister dearly and could not imagine my life without her, but if she were treating someone I loved that badly I would not accept her doing that. I would make it clear that she should start treating them well or I might distance myself from her.

This is just my opinion however, hopefully you'll figure out what's the best thing to do for all of you :hug99:

 

Thanks for your reply. It is really reassuring and helpful. Alot of people that I talk to about this don't really seem to understand. They think that twin are always "best friends" and never fight or disagree, simply because they are twins.
I know that my boyfriend's twin brother is going through some serious issues and but I as you mentioned I am starting to accept that I can't change that, especially because he does not want to get any help or advice himself.
I was thinking that maybe he is struggling with some identity issues and anger, but I am not an expert in this field....He was always the dominating one according to my boyfriend, attempting to control, comment on and influence everything my boyfriend ever did. When I started dating my boyfriend I guess he changed a little (which had more to do with his career choice and work), but the twin brother blamed and continues to blame it all on me. He say his brother (my boyfriend) has become stupid, that I am stupid and that he "can't stand us being together" (those are his exact words).
I guess I will have to continue on the best that I can and hope that he calms down, because I agree with you that there is no excuse for violence, and blaming it on "twin issues" is just a scapegoat for avoiding other problems which may be lurking for him below the surface.....

Thanks!

 

Just wondering, should I give up on a possible resolution with my boyfriend's twin brother, or should I keep hoping that he will come around? I really hate this situation The worse part about it all is that the father of the twins constant keeps joking about how my boyfriend's brother hates me, always giving him notice if I am going to be at their home, and being sarcastic etc. It's really painful.

 

You need to decide how you want this to go. You are the one being added into all sorts of exsisting relationships. Many people have bad relationships with their inlaws and you may just end up being one of them.

You could have your boyfriend talk to his father about how is joking makes you feel.

 

Thanks so much for your response. I am willing to accept the issues with the inlaws, whatever those may be because I love my boyfriend.
Alas, things have only gotten worse since my last post, alot worse. The twin brother who went away to school in another country has sent a "family wide" email to his family excluding his twin brother in the email. In the email he announced how much he hates me and him together and that he never wants to see us when he comes home to visit. He even said he does not want our presence for Thanksgiving. I mean he does not even live with his parents since he went away to school but is trying to dictate who his parents can and can't invite to their home. The email was 3 pages long detailing apparent actions against him and ways in which we have been mean to him and the scary thing is that they are all COMPLETELY FALSE ! His other brother and sister are surprised and taken aback by the email, but the parents are arguing heavily about what to do with all this. They told my boyfriend that his twin is "not doing well on his own" at school....it seems they are blaming him for his brother's problems....

I just want everyone to be alright and I don't want to get involved that's for sure. Is it possible that his twin brother is suffering from some sort of depression prompting him to act in such a bizarre manner. I am hoping his parents can help. My boyfriend has tried to find a "twin therapist" but had no luck. Do those even exist I am wondering.
The father also seems to believe it's all my boyfriend's fault (and mine by default) and he believes the email. He even threatened to kick him out of the house! I am really worried for him.

-Scared and Confused

 

QUOTE(Twin_Curious @ Oct 7 2008, 11:03 AM) [snapback]1015566[/snapback]
Thanks so much for your response. I am willing to accept the issues with the inlaws, whatever those may be because I love my boyfriend.
Alas, things have only gotten worse since my last post, alot worse. The twin brother who went away to school in another country has sent a "family wide" email to his family excluding his twin brother in the email. In the email he announced how much he hates me and him together and that he never wants to see us when he comes home to visit. He even said he does not want our presence for Thanksgiving. I mean he does not even live with his parents since he went away to school but is trying to dictate who his parents can and can't invite to their home. The email was 3 pages long detailing apparent actions against him and ways in which we have been mean to him and the scary thing is that they are all COMPLETELY FALSE ! His other brother and sister are surprised and taken aback by the email, but the parents are arguing heavily about what to do with all this. They told my boyfriend that his twin is "not doing well on his own" at school....it seems they are blaming him for his brother's problems....

I just want everyone to be alright and I don't want to get involved that's for sure. Is it possible that his twin brother is suffering from some sort of depression prompting him to act in such a bizarre manner. I am hoping his parents can help. My boyfriend has tried to find a "twin therapist" but had no luck. Do those even exist I am wondering.
The father also seems to believe it's all my boyfriend's fault (and mine by default) and he believes the email. He even threatened to kick him out of the house! I am really worried for him.

-Scared and Confused


I just read your blog and I know this was posted quite awhile ago but I really need to vent right now. No I'm not 19, but I am almost turning 16. I've been desperate enough about the problem I have to google online for advice on how to deal with the exact crap your dealing with now. See I'm dating a twin too, and his twin brother.....******. Won't even go into THAT one cause I'll trust that you get that. Since your on the base of education yourself with this. I have a theory that this has more to do with that JUST your situation. I'm younger and it's with a totally different set of twins. I think it may be a natural bearing for twin guys when one gets into a serious relationship with a girl and the other doesn't. Just know your not alone. I'm happy to know I'm not alone on this. For maybe 7 months now, my boyfriends twin brother has been giving us so much stupid crap for absolutely no reason. He's called me names, tried to make me look bad, made fun of how me and my boyfriend would simply go to the movies, etc. He literally finds things to get on me for and it drives me insane. But get THIS, the twisted part in my story is that my (former) best friend was dating him till about a month ago till she broke up with him. And notice how I said former. BESTFRIENDS + TWINS= XXXX
Don't do it. Now that you say, you've been dating since you were about 18 if my math is right?...that's a really long time to have been dealing with that stuff. And it never went away? I'm scared of it not going away myself. I love my boyfriend with all my heart. But I'm worried that his brother is just never going to grow up. I don't know what to do about it. I'm actually suppose to be at dinner with them this moment but my parents didn't let me go because they knew that the twin that doesn't like me would be there.

I've been playing up with a lot of theories as to why he's acting this way. The most apparent would probably be jealousy. Not to brag or anything, but I think it's the fact that I'm the kinda multitasking artistic/athletic/debate type of girl and my boyfriend is pretty simple and you'd never think we'd ever date. The other reason I think may be the fact that he hasn't established his first serious relationship yet and his brothers ahead of him.

Yet it's basically surrounded on jealousy.
I really hope you reply to this.

Good luck...and luck to me as well....we both need it.

 

I've been watching this thread for a while, but I haven't replied for reasons that will probably become clear...

I think you are the problem (that goes for both of you). What you are not seeing is that you are getting yourselves involved in an existing "system" (for lack of a better word) and you are upsetting the balance by trying to have them change their behaviour to fit your sensitivities. It is perfectly normal to tease and make fun of each other. It is also perfectly normal to extend that to others (Joyce, Kendra, Brenda and Gerda have all been on the receiving end of this from both Richard and I) who may or may not be used to it. Both of you appear too sensitive about this and take these comments too seriously. It most certainly isn't jealousy and calling your "boyfriend" (at 15?) "simple" probably doesn't help matters. My theory is that you both need to relax and accept that behaviour that may not seem normal to you is perfectly normal and acceptable. I would also suggest that you realise that at most you come 2nd and regardless of the what they tell you their twin brother comes first (and that goes for everything including how much time they spend with each other). In other words, you need to figure out where you fit in the existing structure and either accept it or go elsewhere. They aren't going to change for you.

 

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Oct 25 2008, 09:27 AM) [snapback]1041313[/snapback]
I've been watching this thread for a while, but I haven't replied for reasons that will probably become clear...

I think you are the problem (that goes for both of you). What you are not seeing is that you are getting yourselves involved in an existing "system" (for lack of a better word) and you are upsetting the balance by trying to have them change their behaviour to fit your sensitivities. It is perfectly normal to tease and make fun of each other. It is also perfectly normal to extend that to others (Joyce, Kendra, Brenda and Gerda have all been on the receiving end of this from both Richard and I) who may or may not be used to it. Both of you appear too sensitive about this and take these comments too seriously. It most certainly isn't jealousy and calling your "boyfriend" (at 15?) "simple" probably doesn't help matters. My theory is that you both need to relax and accept that behaviour that may not seem normal to you is perfectly normal and acceptable. I would also suggest that you realise that at most you come 2nd and regardless of the what they tell you their twin brother comes first (and that goes for everything including how much time they spend with each other). In other words, you need to figure out where you fit in the existing structure and either accept it or go elsewhere. They aren't going to change for you.


Being pushed, hit, punched, or in any other way, is never, ever, ever acceptable or normal. I don't care if the siblings are twins or not. Period. I agree that the family won't change, but is it really right that she would forever come "second" to a twin brother? Not being mean, just asking, as I really respect the honestly with which you've answered this.

 

QUOTE
Being pushed, hit, punched, or in any other way, is never, ever, ever acceptable or normal. I don't care if the siblings are twins or not. Period. I agree that the family won't change, but is it really right that she would forever come "second" to a twin brother? Not being mean, just asking, as I really respect the honestly with which you've answered this.


I was referring to the comments, not the hitting (although I won't deny that it happens and is common). I see your twins haven't been born yet but you will probably find that hard feelings don't last long (10 minutes at most in my experience and normally far less than that) no matter how bloody the incident

As far as her coming second forever, yes it is right. In most cases you don't need to prioritise (in the same way that you normally don't need to chose between friends and family), but if you do have to make a choice the answer is obvious in my opinion. Is it fair for her? Probably not and I can accept that not everybody likes that, but that is the way it is.

 

I'll have to agree with Adrian on what he has said.

QUOTE
Being pushed, hit, punched, or in any other way, is never, ever, ever acceptable or normal.


It might not be acceptable to you but it is certainly normal. There is a difference between pushing and hitting intending to hurt and the sort of thing that happens between brothers (particularly twin brothers). I know people don't like to hear it but it will and does happen. Some parents might think their children never do it but it generally doesn't last long with nobody getting hurt and nobody else being involved. As an example, several years ago Adrian and I were having a "disagreement" ( ) just as somebody happened to come to the door asking for a donation (if I remember correctly). Our mother opened the door just as we were pushing each other around in another room and proceeded to make a bit of noise. Apparently the person who was at the door was worried that somebody was getting hurt and was surprised that our mother wasn't bothered. There were no lasting effects to anybody (well perhaps the person who came to the door who had her ideas about twins never fighting shattered ). If nobody but us had been home at the time nobody would have known anything had happened (including our parents).

 

To the OT, from what you've posted so far, I think it's time for you to stop doing the worrying for both these brothers and tell your bf in no uncertain terms to figure this one out. You've mentioned that his behavior bothers your boyfriend also who himself has considered putting a distance between him and his brother, which is why he needs to take some kind of stand on this if he is serious about having a future with you, however this person may be related to him.

The problems are coming from his brother who is either 1) Suffering from serious issues or mental stress or 2) Is way too dependent/attached to his twin brother. They are 25 years old and while I can appreciate their twin bond and all that, it's not very healthy IMO for ANY sibling to obsess so much over the other and their life.

 

QUOTE(Anne-J @ Oct 25 2008, 10:17 PM) [snapback]1041344[/snapback]
The problems are coming from his brother who is either 1) Suffering from serious issues or mental stress or 2) Is way too dependent/attached to his twin brother.


She is the one who entered into an existing system, not his brother. Should his brother adjust? It would probably make things easier, but ultimately he isn't the one who changed. Regardless, not taking a stand (as you said) is to me an indication of who really comes first (rightly so in my opinion).

 

No, I see what you're saying about two brothers physically bopping each other around. I have a son and a stepson who are only 6 months apart in age, and believe me, I *do* find myself yelling "GET OFF before you kill each other!!" And I'm totally not naive enough to think my twin girls won't bash hell outta each other too. (God knows my sister and I did and we're 10 years apart!)
What I read in Twin-Curious's post was that the twin brother was hitting etc, HER, and they're not rambunctious kids anymore, they're in their 20's. My point is simply that there is a huge difference between two brothers braying hell outta each other, and a 20 year old man hitting or pushing his brothers girlfriend. I know it may seem sexist, but I feel it's true. JMO!

QUOTE
They are 25 years old and while I can appreciate their twin bond and all that, it's not very healthy IMO for ANY sibling to obsess so much over the other and their life.


*This* is exactly what I mean, as far as she should come first, if they're going to marry. The brother isn't going to be bearing his twins children, cleaning his twins house, working alongside his twin to pay a mortgage, and being a lover, wife, partner and mother (or whatever of those roles she does or does not decide to take on). She is. In short, I guess what I mean is, to be indelicate, is his twin brother gonna be keeping him warm at night? Nope. Probably not.

 

QUOTE
She is the one who entered into an existing system, not his brother. Should his brother adjust? It would probably make things easier, but ultimately he isn't the one who changed. Regardless, not taking a stand (as you said) is to me an indication of who really comes first (rightly so in my opinion).


Existing system? She entered into a relationship with a man, his sibling is just that his sibling and should behave as any sibling would when his/her brother/sister finds themselves a boyfriend/girlfriend. Are you saying it's different with twins when their twin dates? If so then that's a little strange no?

Having a twin connection is fine, but come on.. sending out emails to the entire family talking about how much he hates their relationship? Abusing and pushing around his brother's girlfriend? Hitting his brother because he doesn't approve of his relationship? Either this guy hasn't grown up past the age of 5 mentally or has serious psychological issues.

As for "rightly" taking a stand, only he would know best. Honestly though he's just 25 and this is one girl.. he has a lifetime ahead of him. And if he constantly puts his brother first and the obsessive behavior continues with every woman who enters into their "existing system" (who knows, it could happen) then I think that twin relationship would be a downright unhealthy one.

ETA: sp

 

QUOTE
What I read in Twin-Curious's post was that the twin brother was hitting etc, HER, and they're not rambunctious kids anymore, they're in their 20's. My point is simply that there is a huge difference between two brothers braying hell outta each other, and a 20 year old man hitting or pushing his brothers girlfriend. I know it may seem sexist, but I feel it's true. JMO!


I don't see anything to suggest that he was hitting her. I would agree with you if I thought that was the case, but I don't. To be honest, I think most of the post is a bit of an exageration. I see this:

QUOTE
I have been shoved, threatened, named called and gossiped about by the other twin, for no reason it seems.
. So there was a bit of shoving? Doesn't sound nice, but shoving isn't hitting last time I checked. Then she says this:

QUOTE
I barely see the other twin


So if she barely sees him (especially now that she says he is in another country) when does all this shoving happen? I would expect it may have happened once and she might even have initiated it.

QUOTE
*This* is exactly what I mean, as far as she should come first, if they're going to marry. The brother isn't going to be bearing his twins children, cleaning his twins house, working alongside his twin to pay a mortgage, and being a lover, wife, partner and mother (or whatever of those roles she does or does not decide to take on). She is. In short, I guess what I mean is, to be indelicate, is his twin brother gonna be keeping him warm at night? Nope. Probably not.


I don't see what your point is to be quite honest. She may or may not do all those things for him, but that doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned. I admit (and I've said it in a previous post too) that it may seem strange or "wrong", but that is the way it is.

QUOTE
Existing system? She entered into a relationship with a man, his sibling is just that his sibling and should behave as any sibling would when his/her brother/sister finds themselves a boyfriend/girlfriend. Are you saying it's different with twins when their twin dates? If so then that's a little strange no?


Yes it is different, but it isn't strange. How much time do most brothers (who are not twins) spend with each other (physically/telephone/etc) every day from 15 years old onwards? Quite a bit less than twins do in my experience. Like it or not there are differences which others have to accept if they want to participate. Kendra said the same thing in one of her posts: "You need to decide how you want this to go. You are the one being added into all sorts of exsisting relationships. Many people have bad relationships with their inlaws and you may just end up being one of them." Of course she chose to ignore the first part and concentrate on the last part...

The fact is that there are different aspects involved than in a simple relationship between two singletons. I certainly expect Richard to take a greater interest in everything I do than my younger brother. To give a bit of an extreme example, when I raised the idea of moving to Australia (less than six months before we actually did it), my younger brother wasn't interested in the slightest. Richard thought it was a good enough idea to come with me See the difference? The same thing applies here. His brother is coming with them "into" this relationship regardless of where in the world he is and what his feelings may or may not be. He has every right in my opinion to say what he thinks. In fact, as I have been trying to point out she is actually coming into an existing relationship which regardless of the dynamics between them already exists and is already set up in a certain way. This may sound a bit too systematic, but that is the way it is.

 

Thanks to everyone who has provided me with some insight into this.
In response to the previous post. To be clear, he did push me on several occassions (unprovoked) in the past. NOW he is not in the country but regularly sends emails home 4-5 pages long with a variety of rantings about what he does not like about my relationship with his brother. The sad thing is that he describes all these events as having occurred in the past, but they NEVER did, they are completely false. He seems to put a negative spin on everything and insists I am "controlling" his brother. Does this sound healthy for a 25 year old male?

I have since spoken to other twins in my life in the last while, and they all agreed with me that his behaviour is outside of "normal ranges". Ie. twins have a different relationship than other siblings but there are ranges of normality and he is clearly outside of them. I don't think that I am "exagerating" as mentioned by the previous post either. I have never been shoved, name called, gossiped about or ridiculed by ANYONE to this extent, especially unprovoked. I refuse to accept that this is normal, it can't be......

I agree that like any relationship, you are entering into a new realm (something pre-existing) however I do believe that there are boundaries of normal/healthy human contact regardless of the type of relationship you are entering into, weather friendship or romance. What my boyfriend's brother is doing is not normal (at this point). As someone mentioned earlier, perhaps when you are 10 or younger pushing and shoving is more easily understood, but at 25 ?
What is going to happen when they are 30?

The parents now visit the brother almost weekly (which is a 5 hr drive away) to check on him and make sure he is "doing ok" because even they have now acknowledged that he needs to "grow up" after they have read some of the letters. I think they are many years away from ever accepting he actually has any serious issues, but atleast it's a start.
Putting aside the twin relationship, from everyone's posts it does seem to me he could have some underlying mental health issues.... Again we are not talking about a 10 year old kid here....

 

Sorry, but your reply only confirms what I thought (and posted).

It is quite clear to me that you are looking for support for your interpretation of events. It is difficult for me to say one way or another since you aren't providing us very much information and are at most 1/3 of the story. Having said that your posts are filled with (conscious or subconscious) exageration and references to mysterious "letters" which you claim are false. The fact is you are exerting pressure on your boyfriend so I don't believe that everything you claim he writes is false. Furthermore, you specifically state "I refuse to accept that this is normal." Why post then if all you want to do is confirm your own interpretation?

As for his parents visiting him "almost" weekly... I'm sure my mother would too (or would expect me to visit her "almost" weekly) if I lived only a five hour drive way. I'm not dependent, nor do I have "issues" but my mother is a bit of a worrier and I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case here.

I'm going to make the suggestion that you invite him to come and post here. Maybe then we'll get both sides and we can see his "problems" and if not then at least we get another member!

 

Ofcourse I am looking for support, support in general. I am not pressuring my boyfriend, on what do you base this assumption?. I write this in a forum, so as to prevent overwhelming him with my concerns. I let him deal with this as he sees fit. It's his brother after all....

Ofcourse " I refuse to accept" the behaviour, who would want to be treated like this ? I think you are having difficulty putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
I am not also not asking anyone to change, but respect needs to be present on both ends don't you think? Being a twin should not be an excuse for being a "jerk", something that everyone has to accept.
As I mentioned before, there are ranges of acceptable human behaviour and I THINK that what I have experienced is outside of that.....

 

QUOTE
I am not pressuring my boyfriend, on what do you base this assumption?


On this:

"I was thinking that maybe he is struggling with some identity issues and anger"
"Is it possible that his twin brother is suffering from some sort of depression prompting him to act in such a bizarre manner."
"Putting aside the twin relationship, from everyone's posts it does seem to me he could have some underlying mental health issues"
"I refuse to accept that this is normal, it can't be......"

and so on... What makes you think that your feeling towards his brother don't affect anything?

QUOTE
Ofcourse " I refuse to accept" the behaviour, who would want to be treated like this ? I think you are having difficulty putting yourself in someone else's shoes.


Not quite. As I stated earlier in this thread, I understand where your feelings are coming from, but you are missing an enormous element in why it is happening and are not addressing the real issue (and I can assure you it isn't some imaginary "mental issues" which you aren't qualified to diagnose anyway).

QUOTE
I am not also not asking anyone to change, but respect needs to be present on both ends don't you think? Being a twin should not be an excuse for being a "jerk", something that everyone has to accept.


You are asking them to change which is what I have been trying to point out. You may not be explicitly asking them to change, but by your behaviour you are. Seeing as how you say you have mutual friends, I suspect that your boyfriend's twin has a point (or several). His letters may or may not be exagerated themselves, but I don't believe for a minute they would be completely false.

What I have been trying to point out is that you are causing yourself problems by not trying to recognise how your behaviour is causing this issue as opposed to trying to blame it on fictitious "twin" problems or "mental" issues. As I said in my previous post, you should invite your boyfriend's twin to come here. If your concerns and comments really are sincere then surely there would be no harm in doing that?

 

Ok so what do you believe are behviours/actions etc. on my part that would have instigated his behaviour? (If this is what you believe is the case). You said that I am trying to diagnose him....that is incorrect. I am just trying to make sense of what is happening. Mental illness does run in his family and so that is why I thought of it...

Also, you are not distinguishing between what I feel/and think versus what is actually done or said. How are you certain that I actually mention all this to my boyfriend with the intention to "change him" as you imply? Why would I want to change anyone ?

I came to this forum to find a solution and all you have posted so far implies that I am the problem, so what are you implying then, that we should break up? What if I told you that all of my boyfriend's exes have experienced the same problems with his twin ? Are you saying that all these girls ARE THE PROBLEM?

In terms of bringing him to this forum, I wouldn't do that.....since you mentioned that it is me who is "entering into a pre-existing relationship", it is obvious I am struggling with it and hence I am here....if my boyfriend's twin is who he always has been (a part of this pre-existing relationship) then clearly he has no problems or issues that need to be resolved (sarcasm here). That is what your comments seem to assume. So further to that, why would I bring him here? To make the situation worse?

You seem like a very cold person who has obviously not shared this experience.

If there is anyone out there who has been through this and was able to find a solution or atleast some peace please let me know what steps you took.
If you don't feel comfortable posting here, please send me a message through the forum, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

QUOTE
Ok so what do you believe are behviours/actions etc. on my part that would have instigated his behaviour? (If this is what you believe is the case). You said that I am trying to diagnose him....that is incorrect. I am just trying to make sense of what is happening. Mental illness does run in his family and so that is why I thought of it...

Also, you are not distinguishing between what I feel/and think versus what is actually done or said. How are you certain that I actually mention all this to my boyfriend with the intention to "change him" as you imply? Why would I want to change anyone ?


I don't live with you so I couldn't tell you exactly what behaviour it is. Why don't you ask his brother if his e-mails don't make it clear to you. As I've said countless times in this thread, you don't need to explicitly say anything, but if you don't think your feelings don't come across in your behaviour you are deceiving youself.

QUOTE
I came to this forum to find a solution and all you have posted so far implies that I am the problem, so what are you implying then, that we should break up? What if I told you that all of my boyfriend's exes have experienced the same problems with his twin ? Are you saying that all these girls ARE THE PROBLEM?


Go back and read the post by the 15 year old experiencing the same problem. It doesn't have to do with who is involved, it has to do with the lack of understanding of what you are involved with. Clearly you first need to understand how you fit into the existing relationship and then see for yourself how your presence has changed it. Only then will you actually be able to see why this is occuring. It all comes down to understanding of the situation. While I can't tell you what you have been doing that is causing this (only you can do that), I can tell you that your lack of understanding of how you fit into the existing system is preventing you from finding the root cause of the issue.

QUOTE
In terms of bringing him to this forum, I wouldn't do that.....since you mentioned that it is me who is "entering into a pre-existing relationship", it is obvious I am struggling with it and hence I am here....if my boyfriend's twin is who he always has been (a part of this pre-existing relationship) then clearly he has no problems or issues that need to be resolved (sarcasm here). That is what your comments seem to assume. So further to that, why would I bring him here? To make the situation worse?


All the frequent posters on this forum that I know of don't have any "problems or issues that need to be resolved" (no sarcasm in this case). To imply that all this forum is good for is for solving other people's issues does a disservice to the forum and its participants.

QUOTE
You seem like a very cold person who has obviously not shared this experience.


Actually, my body temperature is 37 degrees last time I checked Simply because you don't like my response doesn't make me a cold person! What do you want everybody to say? "Of course it is his problem. He obviously has mental health issues!"? Sorry, but I stand by my replies and character insults aren't really necessary.

 

Yes, 15. I respect your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine when I say that I don't honestly think that even farther into the future that the twin brother would always be number one over his girlfriend. I'm not speaking of my case here but in general I think it's very realistic to say that as the relationships begin to become more serious and intimate, there comes a point where there is no longer a "top" list. It becomes two separate matters of importance all together. Neither is more important that the other. Both are cared about in different ways on different levels and both have a special place in the twins heart. Whether they be conflicting or not. I find your system theory a little confusing but I think it's only because I don't entirely get it.
I understand that their was the brother/brother system to begin with, but there's always room for change. People change all the time, twins or not, heck my twin's 15, her twin is in his 20's. I think it's unrealistic to say that they won't change. I'm not a twin myself but I figure that's how it is for all families and siblings right?
I agree with the user that replied stating that pushing, shoving, harassing, etc., is NEVER exceptable, I don't care who you are, acquaintance, friend, parent, and especially twin brother. You have no right. Yes, something needs to be done about it and absolutely NOT will people dealing with problems like mine accept that.

 

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Oct 29 2008, 09:13 PM) [snapback]1048093[/snapback]
I don't live with you so I couldn't tell you exactly what behaviour it is. Why don't you ask his brother if his e-mails don't make it clear to you. As I've said countless times in this thread, you don't need to explicitly say anything, but if you don't think your feelings don't come across in your behaviour you are deceiving yourself.


If she accepted or recognized anything that the twin brother said about her was true in the emails then I don't see why she would be making what seems like an honest cry out for help, and not state ALL of the story. OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THE GUYS COMPLAINTS ABOUT HER DOES SHE ADDRESS, ACTUALLY HAPPENED. If she asked him why he was doing all of this (again..), really come on, what do you think he'd say? All of the sudden the sky would become clear and he'd tell her the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Sure she doesn't have to explicitly say anything, but her point is short and sweet, it's hard to put yourself in her shoes. I can say that you really don't have much room to talk unless you've experienced and actually KNOW what your talking about. Seriously, cut her some slack, deceiving herself? really now, so apparently because she feels continuous frustration and hurt and confusion, and since she's established how she feels, she should act directly according to it, not even missing a beat right? Reading her original posts, she's taken several courses of action (in case you missed those parts) all this time still feeling these emotions and thinking these same things, you can't hold her accountable for not knowing what further to do in such a complicated situation. As I stated, it's hard for you to judge her because you yourself can't understand the situation. No matter how much you think you CAN understand, you simply don't to the level that you think you do. Crap, who am I to say any of this? eh, I'm human. I realize people make mistakes, I realize life is complicated by the hit of 15. Heck nothing I'm dealing with is a nearly as complicated and aggravating as she is, but I can get it to a point. It seems like your dismissing the situation as if the answer is smack dab in front of her face and she's too blind to see it.

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Oct 29 2008, 09:13 PM) [snapback]1048093[/snapback]
Go back and read the post by the 15 year old experiencing the same problem. It doesn't have to do with who is involved, it has to do with the lack of understanding of what you are involved with. Clearly you first need to understand how you fit into the existing relationship and then see for yourself how your presence has changed it. Only then will you actually be able to see why this is occuring. It all comes down to understanding of the situation. While I can't tell you what you have been doing that is causing this (only you can do that), I can tell you that your lack of understanding of how you fit into the existing system is preventing you from finding the root cause of the issue.


Okay here, lets attempt understand everyone now shall we?
1. Twin brothers. Happy perfect family. Love Love Love.
2. Twin brothers = BFFS FO LYFE!...
3. One twin falls head over heels for a girl.
4. Twin and Girl are happy.
5. Twin brother slowly acting immaturely towards new couple.
6. Twin and girl counter-reaction to twin brother.
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....1 year later.....
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....3 years later....
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....4 years later....
This is it right?...yes I believe so please correct me if I'm wrong. So lets get to the understanding part, follow closely now....hmm she doesn't fit into the system, because the brothers established a system where having other people close to one or the other just simply wouldn't work out right? Cause that's defying the prior system. So lets see...root of cause...
well I guess you would consider the root of the cause right where the problems started am I not correct? So I believe that starts with HER. Right? So she came in and "changed" the brothers the relationship. This seems to be what your implying. Based off of that you are also implying that if she were dating the other twin, the brother would have reacted similarly to how the "problem" twin is acting now. It's just a matter of understanding what you were involved with to begin with right? Which was this impenetrable system that universally shouldn't be messed with otherwise bad things like the past events that have happened to her would happen. This seems to be what I'm getting.

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Oct 29 2008, 09:13 PM) [snapback]1048093[/snapback]
All the frequent posters on this forum that I know of don't have any "problems or issues that need to be resolved" (no sarcasm in this case). To imply that all this forum is good for is for solving other people's issues does a disservice to the forum and its participants.


She's not going to bring him into the forum, think logically for a second. First off, what good is that going to do? Satisfy because you'll here both sides? sounds pretty selfish to me. Even if he did go on here, do you really think he's going to tell you the truth? Then again, sure we don't know for sure if she's telling the whole truth because this is merely an online community where we can be or act like whoever we want, but going off of that fact, what really makes you think that, that him coming on here would be worth anyones time? Do you really think, YOU and everyone else getting to see both peoples opinion via online is gonna help their situation? It's called face to face confrontation. That's obviously already occurred with no success, do you really think an immature little cyber battle will help the already paused progression? Come on now, your the adult not me.

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Oct 29 2008, 09:13 PM) [snapback]1048093[/snapback]
Actually, my body temperature is 37 degrees last time I checked Simply because you don't like my response doesn't make me a cold person! What do you want everybody to say? "Of course it is his problem. He obviously has mental health issues!"? Sorry, but I stand by my replies and character insults aren't really necessary.


No, it doesn't make you a cold person or give anyone a reason to insult anyones character via online. Your opinions on one issue don't judge how you are in every other aspect of life, it just happens to rub off that way in your understanding and interpretation of this situation. The way you are making accusations and assumptions at her without so much of any type of questioning or reasoning toward the fact that MAYBE just MAYBE she's not at fault, is an insult itself to her because that's just extremely unfair. I'm sure she wasn't expecting all the replies to surround the same opinion but she probably wasn't hoping for a ridiculously biased opinion from someone who hasn't even heard the other side.

Oh and I'd gladly appreciate a reply, from reading this thread it seems that you've been challenging every word she's said. I'm up for some friendly debating. Try me :].

 

First, I don't see this as a debate. She asked a question, I answered it, she questioned me on my answers so I responded to those questions. It is hardly a debate when we are only being provided part of the information (and I'm not saying she is withholding it either, just stating that we don't have all the information).

In any case...

QUOTE
Yes, 15. I respect your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine when I say that I don't honestly think that even farther into the future that the twin brother would always be number one over his girlfriend. I'm not speaking of my case here but in general I think it's very realistic to say that as the relationships begin to become more serious and intimate, there comes a point where there is no longer a "top" list. It becomes two separate matters of importance all together. Neither is more important that the other. Both are cared about in different ways on different levels and both have a special place in the twins heart. Whether they be conflicting or not.


Your comments lead me to believe that you realise what I am saying, but have interpreted my comments slightly differently. As I pointed out, this isn't a case of always agreeing with his brother over anybody else or even deciding to spend one time with one person over another, my comments in regards to his brother taking priority have to do with ultimatum situations. It generally doesn't become an issue at all unless somebody forces the situation.

QUOTE
I understand that their was the brother/brother system to begin with, but there's always room for change. People change all the time, twins or not, heck my twin's 15, her twin is in his 20's. I think it's unrealistic to say that they won't change. I'm not a twin myself but I figure that's how it is for all families and siblings right?


People change and that isn't the issue. What is an issue is when the change is initiated from an outside "force" beyond the constraints that have been mutually decided upon over time. Systems change and develop over time, but a "shock" to the existing force upsets the existing balance of what is normally a very complex situation. You can't expect something that has developed under a certain set of parameters to suddenly change with the addition of another element (you in this case) without it impacting the dynamics and constraints of the existing system. Furthermore, this mutually developed system will need to adjust in a mutually agreeable way over time. What I see happening in this case is that this process isn't being allowed to take place at its natural speed and process in order to suit the expectations of this additional element.

QUOTE
If she accepted or recognized anything that the twin brother said about her was true in the emails then I don't see why she would be making what seems like an honest cry out for help, and not state ALL of the story. OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THE GUYS COMPLAINTS ABOUT HER DOES SHE ADDRESS, ACTUALLY HAPPENED. If she asked him why he was doing all of this (again..), really come on, what do you think he'd say? All of the sudden the sky would become clear and he'd tell her the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Sure she doesn't have to explicitly say anything, but her point is short and sweet, it's hard to put yourself in her shoes. I can say that you really don't have much room to talk unless you've experienced and actually KNOW what your talking about. Seriously, cut her some slack, deceiving herself? really now, so apparently because she feels continuous frustration and hurt and confusion, and since she's established how she feels, she should act directly according to it, not even missing a beat right? Reading her original posts, she's taken several courses of action (in case you missed those parts) all this time still feeling these emotions and thinking these same things, you can't hold her accountable for not knowing what further to do in such a complicated situation. As I stated, it's hard for you to judge her because you yourself can't understand the situation. No matter how much you think you CAN understand, you simply don't to the level that you think you do. Crap, who am I to say any of this? eh, I'm human. I realize people make mistakes, I realize life is complicated by the hit of 15. Heck nothing I'm dealing with is a nearly as complicated and aggravating as she is, but I can get it to a point. It seems like your dismissing the situation as if the answer is smack dab in front of her face and she's too blind to see it.


I was going to break this down into several components, but it is probably better off left as one. Simply put, I realise that while she may honestly believe that none of his complaints actually happened, I also realise that events look different to different people and that those perceptions change over time as a result of other interactions with the same people/objects/elements/etc. I also think you misunderstood the context in which I wrote my comments. She claims that she doesn't let her feelings about his brother reflect in her behaviour. I am pointing out that nobody can ever completely prevent their feelings from affecting their behaviour. THis also goes back to my previous comment that each person perceives each situation differently and how is she supposed to know that her behaviour (that I believe must be somehow affected by her feelings) isn't being perceived in a negative way by either her boyfriend or his brother? I don't expect her to know how each person perceives the situation, but I do expect her to realise that the differences exist. As for me believing that the answer is in front of her face, to an extent, yes I believe it is. The most complex problems are normally the hardest to solve, but have the simplest and most elegant solutions. This applies here as much as it does anywhere else.

QUOTE
Okay here, lets attempt understand everyone now shall we?
1. Twin brothers. Happy perfect family. Love Love Love.
2. Twin brothers = BFFS FO LYFE!...
3. One twin falls head over heels for a girl.
4. Twin and Girl are happy.
5. Twin brother slowly acting immaturely towards new couple.
6. Twin and girl counter-reaction to twin brother.
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....1 year later.....
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....3 years later....
Repeat steps 5 and 6.....4 years later....
This is it right?...yes I believe so please correct me if I'm wrong. So lets get to the understanding part, follow closely now....hmm she doesn't fit into the system, because the brothers established a system where having other people close to one or the other just simply wouldn't work out right? Cause that's defying the prior system. So lets see...root of cause...


Not quite. Your description makes it sound like his girlfriend is displacing his brother's position and that his brother is reacting "immaturely." This isn't accurate. Read my response about elements and forces and so on. The girlfriend is an additional element in the system and is exerting an outside force and then not allowing the natural adjustments to take place in order to properly integrate her into the system. His brother's response is not immature, it is a natural reaction to attempt to restore the system to its natural balance. If you don't allow this process to take place naturally being attempting to speed it up or change the process to suit you (the additional element) then you risk preventing the process from happening.

Note: Using code tags to get around the quote tag limit
CODE
Based off of that you are also implying that if she were dating the other twin, the brother would have reacted similarly to how the "problem" twin is acting now.


Yes it would have.

CODE
It's just a matter of understanding what you were involved with to begin with right? Which was this impenetrable system that universally shouldn't be messed with otherwise bad things like the past events that have happened to her would happen. This seems to be what I'm getting.


I did not say the system was impenetrable, simply that if you want to become part of the system (and you will be if you allow the process to take place and actually want the type of relationship with your boyfriend you say you want) you need to allow the adjustment to take place naturally, over time and at its natural pace within its existing processes and constraints. You can only do that if you realise what you are really involving yourself in.

CODE
Do you really think, YOU and everyone else getting to see both peoples opinion via online is gonna help their situation?


Of course not, but I also don't believe she can get any pre-cut solutions to her problems here either. It already wouldn't be possible under the best of conditions, it certainly isn't possible if we only have (at most) one third of the situation.

CODE
The way you are making accusations and assumptions at her without so much of any type of questioning or reasoning toward the fact that MAYBE just MAYBE she's not at fault, is an insult itself to her because that's just extremely unfair. I'm sure she wasn't expecting all the replies to surround the same opinion but she probably wasn't hoping for a ridiculously biased opinion from someone who hasn't even heard the other side.


I wouldn't call my opinion ridiculously biased, nor have I accused her of doing something on purpose. I am simply pointing out that her lack of understanding of what she has gotten herself into is causing the problems she is experiencing. Do I expect her to be happy that I think she is doing something to cause (or at least aggravate) the situation? Of course not, but she asked for an opinion on a public forum, providing limited information and she should expect people to make assumptions and come to different conclusions. Besides, plenty of people have jumped on the "mental problems" bandwagon so a conflicting interpretation should be welcomed.

 

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Nov 4 2008, 12:13 AM) [snapback]1054822[/snapback]
In any case...
Your comments lead me to believe that you realise what I am saying, but have interpreted my comments slightly differently. As I pointed out, this isn't a case of always agreeing with his brother over anybody else or even deciding to spend one time with one person over another, my comments in regards to his brother taking priority have to do with ultimatum situations. It generally doesn't become an issue at all unless somebody forces the situation.
People change and that isn't the issue. What is an issue is when the change is initiated from an outside "force" beyond the constraints that have been mutually decided upon over time. Systems change and develop over time, but a "shock" to the existing force upsets the existing balance of what is normally a very complex situation. You can't expect something that has developed under a certain set of parameters to suddenly change with the addition of another element (you in this case) without it impacting the dynamics and constraints of the existing system. Furthermore, this mutually developed system will need to adjust in a mutually agreeable way over time. What I see happening in this case is that this process isn't being allowed to take place at its natural speed and process in order to suit the expectations of this additional element.
I was going to break this down into several components, but it is probably better off left as one. Simply put, I realise that while she may honestly believe that none of his complaints actually happened, I also realise that events look different to different people and that those perceptions change over time as a result of other interactions with the same people/objects/elements/etc. I also think you misunderstood the context in which I wrote my comments. She claims that she doesn't let her feelings about his brother reflect in her behaviour. I am pointing out that nobody can ever completely prevent their feelings from affecting their behaviour. THis also goes back to my previous comment that each person perceives each situation differently and how is she supposed to know that her behaviour (that I believe must be somehow affected by her feelings) isn't being perceived in a negative way by either her boyfriend or his brother? I don't expect her to know how each person perceives the situation, but I do expect her to realise that the differences exist. As for me believing that the answer is in front of her face, to an extent, yes I believe it is. The most complex problems are normally the hardest to solve, but have the simplest and most elegant solutions. This applies here as much as it does anywhere else.


Alright, I'm just trying to understand what you mean. So the way you see it is that the brother is the twins priority till someone comes along, forcing to fit into the prior system that was already established. Since this is a common bond that many people have with each other siblings or not, are you implying that if it were a best friend relationship, a mother daughter relationship, or a daughter father relationship, or a brother sister relationship that it would have likely worked out in a similar way for the "girl/boyfriend-less one"?

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Nov 4 2008, 12:13 AM) [snapback]1054822[/snapback]
Not quite. Your description makes it sound like his girlfriend is displacing his brother's position and that his brother is reacting "immaturely." This isn't accurate. Read my response about elements and forces and so on. The girlfriend is an additional element in the system and is exerting an outside force and then not allowing the natural adjustments to take place in order to properly integrate her into the system. His brother's response is not immature, it is a natural reaction to attempt to restore the system to its natural balance. If you don't allow this process to take place naturally being attempting to speed it up or change the process to suit you (the additional element) then you risk preventing the process from happening.


Sending hates letters to the family, calling the girlfriend names, being rude to the couple, "disowning" them, and demeaning their characters isn't your definition of immature in this case then. So because of the "system" none of this should be considered even the slightest, immature because it was bound to happen likewise because of the system? I don't think that you believe it's exceptable but at the same time I think you believe that this matter can so simply solved simply by not ever encroaching on the situation to begin with. The way your posts have been reflecting your opinions shows that you think this whole thing would be solved if she left it alone and never walked in a the "unwelcome" force in the system. Last time I checked, life doesn't work that way. You get things you want, you lose things you have, you get angry, and you get jealous. All the time this happens to everyday people just like and me, friends walk in and out of our lives and some become very close to us. Are you saying that the matter of people entering our already established lives and relationships with others, is bound to cause falter in the happiness of our lives causing universal conflict? My dad's a retired air force sergeant. I've seen many people walk in and out of my life, completely unplanned, and completely unexpected. "Systems" like the one you speak of are constantly changing all the time. We don't like it, but hey does that give us a reason to rewind a couple decades back to toddlerhood? We fight these systems everyday. The way your comments rub off, give me the impression that you think ALL systems like such can simply be kept at peace by "not encroaching on their territory" (for lack of a better analogy) The process of restoring the balance is one that will always no matter what situation, never happen. Too many things change in life to keep balance of everything. If you can't handle that, such as how twin_curious's boyfriend's twin has been acting, you need help.

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Nov 4 2008, 12:13 AM) [snapback]1054822[/snapback]
I did not say the system was impenetrable, simply that if you want to become part of the system (and you will be if you allow the process to take place and actually want the type of relationship with your boyfriend you say you want) you need to allow the adjustment to take place naturally, over time and at its natural pace within its existing processes and constraints. You can only do that if you realise what you are really involving yourself in.


and how does this process take place naturally? how is it suppose to work? what did twin_curious and myself do wrong exactly?

QUOTE(TwinPeshi @ Nov 4 2008, 12:13 AM) [snapback]1054822[/snapback]
I wouldn't call my opinion ridiculously biased, nor have I accused her of doing something on purpose. I am simply pointing out that her lack of understanding of what she has gotten herself into is causing the problems she is experiencing. Do I expect her to be happy that I think she is doing something to cause (or at least aggravate) the situation? Of course not, but she asked for an opinion on a public forum, providing limited information and she should expect people to make assumptions and come to different conclusions. Besides, plenty of people have jumped on the "mental problems" bandwagon so a conflicting interpretation should be welcomed.

Good I'm glad we have the finally established we entered a system and thew of the balance. Now what do we do?

 

Those rumors he's spreading about you "stealing" his brother.
He may actually believe those. That's something to consider.
Did he have a good relationship with his brother, now, and/or before you dated him?
maybe he's jealous because he no longer spends as much time with his brother.
Maybe he feels like you two have a special thing between eachother.
He's used to being the one with a special relationship with his brother, and he feels left out, and lonely. He's hurt at the thought that you and his brother have secrets and inside jokes that he's not a part of.
He probably wants to be a part of his brother's life. He doesn't like it that his brother may hide or keep secrets from him.

My twin sister and I never keep things from eachother. We've never lied to eachother. We tell eachother everything. We have never revealed the other's secret.
My sister is the most important person in my life.
I would probably feel jealous if she went out alone with a boy.
I'd want to go on a double date. I'd feel lost and alone, if she went out on a date with a boy by herself.

My sister and I have seperation anxieties. It's likely that your boyfriend's brother is having them, slightly, too. Not very much, but just a little. He's expressing them through anger and frustration. He feels you DID steal his brother, because you just went off with him, leaving the brother behind, all alone.

IM SORRY IF THIS IS HARD TOO UNDERSTAND, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TRY TO EXPLAIN THIS TO SOMEONE WHO'S NOT A TWIN! SORRY!

 

QUOTE(Evelyn @ Nov 4 2008, 02:32 AM) [snapback]1054881[/snapback]
Those rumors he's spreading about you "stealing" his brother.
He may actually believe those. That's something to consider.
Did he have a good relationship with his brother, now, and/or before you dated him?
maybe he's jealous because he no longer spends as much time with his brother.
Maybe he feels like you two have a special thing between eachother.
He's used to being the one with a special relationship with his brother, and he feels left out, and lonely. He's hurt at the thought that you and his brother have secrets and inside jokes that he's not a part of.
He probably wants to be a part of his brother's life. He doesn't like it that his brother may hide or keep secrets from him.

My twin sister and I never keep things from eachother. We've never lied to eachother. We tell eachother everything. We have never revealed the other's secret.
My sister is the most important person in my life.
I would probably feel jealous if she went out alone with a boy.
I'd want to go on a double date. I'd feel lost and alone, if she went out on a date with a boy by herself.



[SIZE=36pt]BUT YOU'RE NOT AT FAULT HERE, I'M NOT BLAMING YOU. I KNOW YOU DIDN'T MEAN TO MAKE HIM FEEL THIS WAY, I JUST THINK THAT THIS MIGHT BE THE WAY HE FEELS[/SIZE]

My sister and I have seperation anxieties. It's likely that your boyfriend's brother is having them, slightly, too. Not very much, but just a little. He's expressing them through anger and frustration. He feels you DID steal his brother, because you just went off with him, leaving the brother behind, all alone.

IM SORRY IF THIS IS HARD TOO UNDERSTAND, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TRY TO EXPLAIN THIS TO SOMEONE WHO'S NOT A TWIN! SORRY!

 

QUOTE
Alright, I'm just trying to understand what you mean. So the way you see it is that the brother is the twins priority till someone comes along, forcing to fit into the prior system that was already established. Since this is a common bond that many people have with each other siblings or not, are you implying that if it were a best friend relationship, a mother daughter relationship, or a daughter father relationship, or a brother sister relationship that it would have likely worked out in a similar way for the "girl/boyfriend-less one"?


In some ways, yes, but there is a big difference between any of those relationships and between twins. The integration is much tighter and the inter-dependency that occurs as a result of that has a much greater impact on what occurs.

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Sending hates letters to the family, calling the girlfriend names, being rude to the couple, "disowning" them, and demeaning their characters isn't your definition of immature in this case then. So because of the "system" none of this should be considered even the slightest, immature because it was bound to happen likewise because of the system? I don't think that you believe it's exceptable but at the same time I think you believe that this matter can so simply solved simply by not ever encroaching on the situation to begin with. The way your posts have been reflecting your opinions shows that you think this whole thing would be solved if she left it alone and never walked in a the "unwelcome" force in the system. Last time I checked, life doesn't work that way. You get things you want, you lose things you have, you get angry, and you get jealous. All the time this happens to everyday people just like and me, friends walk in and out of our lives and some become very close to us. Are you saying that the matter of people entering our already established lives and relationships with others, is bound to cause falter in the happiness of our lives causing universal conflict? My dad's a retired air force sergeant. I've seen many people walk in and out of my life, completely unplanned, and completely unexpected. "Systems" like the one you speak of are constantly changing all the time. We don't like it, but hey does that give us a reason to rewind a couple decades back to toddlerhood? We fight these systems everyday. The way your comments rub off, give me the impression that you think ALL systems like such can simply be kept at peace by "not encroaching on their territory" (for lack of a better analogy) The process of restoring the balance is one that will always no matter what situation, never happen. Too many things change in life to keep balance of everything. If you can't handle that, such as how twin_curious's boyfriend's twin has been acting, you need help.


A few things first:

1. I'm not going to comment on particular alledged behaviour which we only have scant details about.
2. It is self-limiting to automatically move to the "mental problems", "you need help" and similar comments in order to reduce the complexity of the hypothetical model.
3. I understand where you are coming from with the comment about your father. I have lived on four continents (my father has lived on six) so I know and realise that moves (and other changes) happen suddenly and frequently.
4. Similarly, you need to realise that not everybody is used to the frequent changes you (and I) are used to. I know people that have enormous trouble moving one house to another in the same city, let alone to a different country or continent where they don't know anybody. While I admit that I find it a bit strange, I realise these differences exist and understand the impact of that on people's decisions.
5. When I say "balance", I don't mean go back to how something was before. "balance" means that the elements in the system have settled down into a new form or shape that is mutually agreeable. Think of the process of making a cake from the individual elements (ingredients) to the final "system". The finished products is a very different object from the individual ingredients, but it is balanced.

Having said all that, the circumstances caused by changes to a particular system are very, very different when they involve twins than when they don't. There is a big difference between best friends and two people that spend 80+ percent of their time with each other, have joint bank accounts, joint posessions and just about everything else. The decision therefore to change the system needs to be mutual in order for it to happen smoothly. The adjustment process does happen over time, but it happens when both of the original elements decide they are ready. I'm not convinced that in your case or in twin_curious's case that this mutual decision has been made (and no, I don't think your boyfriends are quite ready either).

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and how does this process take place naturally? how is it suppose to work? what did twin_curious and myself do wrong exactly?

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Good I'm glad we have the finally established we entered a system and thew of the balance. Now what do we do?


This is different for everybody and I'm not in a position to tell you, but I suspect that you are both intelligent enough to sit down and see what went wrong. As I said in my last post, understanding is the most important part of problem solving and the most complex problems tend to have the simplest and most elegant solutions.

By the way, Evelyn's post is worth reading a few times as she has it right in my opinion...