Interesting article about U.S. Christians becoming more Hindu-like

i wondered the same thing...


Brandy

 

In the OT it says when you're dead, you are sleeping. "In that day their thoughts do perish". Also Jesus is quoted as telling someone not to weep for someone else is merely sleeping. etc etc... in Rev. it talks about everyone being awakened after the those "in Christ" are awakened. It's been a long day, I'm tired and I still have to cook supper, pick 2 up from football practice and 1 up from band practice so I'm not hunting down verses. Sorry..

 

Again, no text to support what you're saying.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but you can't make claims that you can't back up. If you're going to say something like "the Bible says...", you need to be able to support it. It's not quite good enough to say - "in the OT", or in such and such book. The OT is pretty big, I could say the same thing and say "the Bible says it's alright to smoke crack, it says so in the OT somewhere". No one would buy that line of reasoning.

I know it's been a long day, yesterday was a long day for me too, I'm still tired...

 

:rofl: Oh, my...no really...LOL!

Here ya go...go stone ya a homosexual.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

The Bible says so!!

 

Who's talking about homosexuals? Did I miss something here?

 

Nobody...you said, just find the text and just bc the text is there it will be the truth. Oh, you know what...I just realized you will never get what is so hilariously funny about the whole thing.

 

Actually, I can make whatever claims I want. No one knows what happens after death, and no one can definitively "back up" their claims. I know you think the Bible backs yours up, but I think that you (and most Christians) pick and choose what you want to believe and how you want to interpret. Again, the Bible says Jews are the chosen people. How do YOU get around that?

 

Oh...

What I was trying to get is the text that supports Donita's claim:

All I'm saying is that if you're going to claim the Bible says something, you should be able to back it up with verses.

 

Okey dokey:

All speaking of Jews. I think this illustrates Donita's point about alternative paths to Heaven having support in the Bible (although I don't think it was the exact passage she was referring to), and it illustrates my point that the Bible says Jews are the Chosen People. Jews - who don't believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

 

OK, you can't make any claim to want when it comes to facts. You can make a statement about what happens after death, but you can't claim the Bible says something and not provide a reference.

Does that make sense? I feel like people are getting confused (or maybe it's just me...)

As far as the Jews being the chosen people - it's not a matter of getting around it - the New Testament explains it pretty well, actually. AND, I'll provide references too! Galatians 3, Ephesians 3 are two places that talk about this subject.

At one point in time, the nation of Israel (the Jews) were God's chosen people, but as those references in the NT point out, it was less to do with genealogy, and more to do with belief. The Bible uses symbolism in Romans to make the point - the symbol being a tree.

I didn't just make this up, the Bible is pretty clear about the whole Jew/Gentile thing. Someone more eloquent than I explains it better:

This isn't "getting around" anything, it's the Bible explaining itself. Hope that helps answer your question - if you'd like more detail on the subject, I'd be happy to provide it.

 

I think we differ on our interpretation of the word "facts."

So, you are of the opinion that the NT supplants the OT?

 

Thank you for your work on this. I love reading what you are saying here..the truth is there, in the Bible. Praise God.


Brandy

 

Fact - it's either in the Bible, or it's not. Donita, or anyone else, has yet to provide a fact that the Bible says:

Also,

Can you explain what you mean by that? I want to make sure I know what you mean by "supplants"... if you mean "replaces" or "substitutes", then No. The references I was using from the NT simply explain what was happening in the OT, with Israel.

 

Well, I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I do know a number of BACs who believe in a different interpretation of Heaven vs. Hell, and who believe that there is another chance after death and the rapture. In fact, don't those Kirk Cameron movies talk about that?

As for "facts" in the Bible. There are a lot of words in the Bible, and those words are subject to a number of interpretations depending upon who is doing the interpreting. And those interpretations are, of course, informed by the time in which it was written and the figures of speech common at the time. For example, the passage talking about how it's harder for a rich man to get into Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle - it's not talking about a sewing needle. Many people interpret that to mean that rich people can't go to Heaven, but that's not what it is saying. And there are thousands of examples. In fact, many of Jesus's words were intended as parables subject to interpretation rather than actual factual stories. And, to me, the entire Bible is more of a parable than a true recitation of facts. I do not, for example, believe that there was an actual ark.

Well, "supplant" means to replace or to take the place of, so that's what I mean. And, again, there are different Biblical interpretations. I know many BACs who believe that Jews are still the chosen people based upon the Bible.

 

Darn this search not working totally thing. I know Donita has talked about her beliefs quite often, I just can't find them. (I'm sure Brandy has read them before) I know they fit mostly with the Jehovah's Witness views on the Bible. I'll do some more searching.

 

Me too, and most ignore, or are confused with the NT references I shared earlier. The NT explains a lot of stuff in the OT - it doesn't supplant it. Explanation was needed because Jesus' life, death and resurrection changed things - it was the fulfillment of prophecy and it also changed how people relate to God (Ie. the sacrificial system was no longer needed due to Jesus' death).

That being said, even non-Jewish people were saved in the OT - consider Rahab, who was a 'gentile' (in the book of Joshua). That would suggest that it wasn't only Israel who were God's chosen people. Hebrews 11 and James 2 explain that situation.

Anyway, you're right to say that many things are up for interpretation - and there are many who would interpret things differently - but there are right ways of interpreting and wrong ways. I don't pretend to have all the answers or be an expert on interpretation, but I do read and study - I try to be educated about a lot of these subjects.

 

I think Donita is referring to those (like me) that believe when we die, we fall asleep in death (Psalm 146:4 - His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish) and then are resurrected, according to the book of Revelations. HERE is a good link on those beliefs.

 

Seriously? Excuse me for having a life that is too busy to point out verses that are easily looked up by you at home.

Thank you Pamela.

 

Your welcome!

 

Psalm 164:4
Gen. 3:19
Eccl. 9:5,6
John 11:11-14
John 11:23,24
John 5:28,29
Acts 24:15
Rev. 20:12,13


If this is not enough I can break out my Bible later after I tend to my family.

 

Who decides which ways are right and which ways are wrong? And why should I believe that your belief that people are not awakened is right (a relatively new American belief) vs a traditional belief that people are awakened? Did people just misinterpret for generations? I could ask the same question about every controversial topic in the Bible. And... why do many BAC throw away how the Jews interpret the OT. Sharon can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've heard a lot of Jews say that certain passages mean one thing, while BAC say they mean another. It was written by the Jews, they'd be the original and best interpreters of *their* book, wouldn't they?

The bolded statement is why people who are super-duper solid in their beliefs, with no exception or respect to other beliefs, scare me. NO ONE knows--period. You CANNOT prove the existence of God (hence, faith). Therefore, you nor anyone else can possibly claim that they are *right*. I think going back to the OP, more and more people are understanding this. And as a result, they are more open and respectful of other religions. It doesn't mean they don't believe their own, it just means they know that it's "faith" not fact.

-penny

 

OK, first of all, don't tell me that Jews are no longer the Chosen People because the New Testament says so. Simply because the Jews don't believe the Messiah has come, and don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, so as far as we are concerned the New Testament doesn't prove anything.

Yes, Penny, you pointed out something that I have never gotten. How Christians can take a book that was written BY Jews as a History, Law, and book of daily living FOR Jews and give it new interpretations as to what G-d really means! I mean, Rabbis have spent centuries arguing over interpretations of the Bible, and even Jews can't come to a full consensus as to what it means. What makes a group of Christians, reading a translation of a translation of a translation suddenly KNOW its "perfect" meaning. G-d may be perfect, but the Bible is not! It is a book written by PEOPLE, it is inspired by G-d, by was WRITTEN by PEOPLE!

If you want to "prove" to me the existence of Jesus as the Messiah, you need more than a book written with the political purpose of showing that (the New Testament). My faith leads me to believe that the Messiah has not yet come, just as a Christian's faith leads him to believe that the Messiah has come. You cannot unfailingly prove your view any more than I can prove mine. Believe as your faith leads you, as is your right, but don't make statements that about others that cannot be proven, and others believe to be false.

Like I said many times before, if G-d wanted us all to believe in Him in the same way, we would. I believe he is that powerful. The simple fact that we are having this discussion proves to me that He wants there to be options and different paths!

 

great post Sharon!

 

There's certainly a lot that could be said - a lot that I'd like to say, but I'm not sure that it would totally worthwhile. We're all fairly entrenched in our beliefs, and I doubt much of that will change.

I will, however, disagree with this statement:

Jesus said (John 14:6) "I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

That means there's only one path.

Donita: I agree with you - the dead will rise - but none of those verses say that the dead will be given the truth and a chance to accept it. They will rise to be judged by the Father.

The verse that you're referring to - that everyone will be given another chance, even after death - is not 'easily looked up' because it doesn't exist.

That was the quote from John 11 that you posted - it also says that you have to believe in Jesus in order to have eternal life. He is the Messiah!

Sharongl: I know we'll disagree on this, and I've disagreed with many of my Jewish friends. I'm not sure what else to say about it really, we'll just disagree....

If you disagree with everything that Jesus claimed in the NT, then you're right, it doesn't "prove" anything, but there's a lot of evidence in the gospels - especially around his resurrection. These days, there is a lot of written and talked-about refutation, but it's recorded that Jesus appeared to more than 500 people - many of whom died testifying to that fact. I know I wouldn't die for that if I wasn't positive it was Him.

Anyways, like I said, I'm not sure this will get us anywhere; we're all pretty convinced and set in our own beliefs...

 

Well, to me it makes no sense that there would be only "one way" that was presented to one little group of people in one part of the world (or World), and too bad for the rest of the people! They will just have to wait for the missionaries to get there.

Exactly. And Jews have plenty of evidence that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. So who's to say?

 

The Messiah is supposed to bring everlasting peace and the end of strife. I don't see that we live in the world where that has happened. So, that is my proof that Jesus was not the Messiah. I never said he didn't exist, just that he isn't the Messiah--Big difference.

Telling me that there is one path in a book that I don't believe is the "true" word of G-d, simply because the Messiah hasn't come, which is what the New Testament is all about, doesn't prove your statement.

 

I will admit that I am fairly unaware of the Jewish evidence that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and would love to hear it! I read and believe the whole Bible, and see the NT as fulfillment of the OT, which includes Jesus as the Messiah. I would love to hear the evidence for the contrary; sincerely - and I will do my best to contain myself and not be overly critical/harsh. Scouts honor.


Edit: we were posting at the same time, and I just read your comment. I guess my explanation is the 'already, but not yet'. Jesus has brought peace and an end to strife in the sense that He provided a path to Heaven (where there will be nothing but peace!). That's the 'already' part; He's already died and been raised back to life, that those who believe in Him as their Messiah, will have access to that peace.

The 'not yet' is the other part - He's not yet finished His work - He will come again, as promised in the NT and will reconcile all things. The living and the dead will be judged, as Revelation tells us, and that will be the end of the strife and chaos that we experience now.

That's my explanation - whether or not you could believe that - I don't know. But that's where I'm at.

 

Here is the reasons I don't believe the Messiah has come.

It is said pretty well in that link.

In addition, I believe G-d to be all powerful, and if the Messiah had already come, Jews would not still be opening our doors during the passover Seder in hopes of welcoming Elijah who is said to hearald the coming of the Messiah. Pretty simple, actually.

 

Wow, really? So which Christian denominations are doing it right, and which ones have got it wrong?

 

I'm sorry, did I say somewhere that it wasn't "easily looked up"? I thought I said I didn't have time to look it all up.

 

Once again, you are adding a concept that didn't exist in the Old Testament. It is something added to the New Testament as an explanation as to why he didn't fulfill all the requirements of the Messiah. That is like taking a Geometry proof and solving it backwords--making it fit to justify your statement. Sorry, but to me, your explanation does hold water. Show me some "proof" where it talks about a 2 part Messiah in the Old Testament, and you may make some headway. Using the New Testament to state your case regarding a Jewish history, which doesn't include the New Testament doesn't work.

 

Penny, you bring up many valid points. Faith is just that, faith, and the fact is none of us can prove or disprove any of it.

EXCELLENT post, Sharon. Excellent!

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Didn't you know, Amy? We Lutherans are right! Sorry to break the news. :lol: (OK, you know I'm kidding, but I can't ever resist!! )

 

My point was that it wasn't easy to look up, because it's not there. There isn't a verse (to my knowledge) that says that the truth will be presented to everyone, after their death, and they will be given a chance to accept it.

Sharongl: I looked at that link, and thought it was interesting. They said:

Which is interesting... what about these verses?

Why are they not included?

I'm still pondering some of the other ideas... thanks for the link!

 

Didn't Donita post these references?

Psalm 164:4
Gen. 3:19
Eccl. 9:5,6
John 11:11-14
John 11:23,24
John 5:28,29
Acts 24:15
Rev. 20:12,13

 

None of what you quoted proves that Jesus is the Messiah. In the parts of the quoted article which list what we believe will happen when the Messiah does come, of those things, I don't believe any single one of those has occured. In fact, if says that all will be united as Jews, not that a new religion will take the place of the Jewish religion--so how do you now justify that?