HELP! How to explain math to an 8yr old...

First, I have to say that I totally get math, it was my best and favorite subject waaaay back in high school and when I finally went to college (10yrs later), college Algebra was a breeze for me. Now, Michael on the other hand is having major problems with double-digit math...adding and subtracting. He had one page with about maybe 40 math problems, all addition to do as homework today. The first one he said the teacher had put the answer on the board the way she wanted the class to do it and it was different than any other way I'd ever done double digit addition before. I'll put the example below so you can see what I'm talking about:

58
+89
17
130
147
Oh good gravy...I can't get the #s to line up right...the 58 should be right above the 89 and the 17 should be right up under that...I hope that makes sense!

He totally did not get why the 0 (zero) was there so I tried explaining that he was adding 50 + 80, he didn't get that so I told him that the zero was there b/c the 5 & 8 are in the 10's column, not the 1's column, he didn't get that either. So, I told him to try adding them without using the zero but to make sure he put the 17 & 13 in the right spot before adding those two #s together. Which he did and he did get all the right answers, he just didn't understand WHY. So, on a separate piece of paper, I showed him how to do it with carrying the 1 to the column on the left and putting it above the #s and he said his teacher didn't want them to do it that way but that he didn't understand that either. We both ended up SO frustrated and he was crying while finishing the homework page. I felt so bad for him and tried not to get upset while he was crying but it was just so frustrating. I did send his teacher an email telling her the whole thing as well so we'll see how she responds to me tomorrow. I just can't comprehend that he doesn't "get it" since math is so easy for me and I like it so much. Anyone have ANY suggestions at all????

 

I'm no expert but maybe he needs math manipulatives. Hard hands on objects so he can see the numbers add up. Once he knows that these numbers add up by seeing the manipulitves demonstrate it. Cuisenaire Rods are just one way, but you can make your own. Some kids have to understand the process inside out, while others just believe the numbers add up.

QUOTE(krysn2ants @ Jan 10 2008, 04:11 AM) [snapback]565662[/snapback]
First, I have to say that I totally get math, it was my best and favorite subject waaaay back in high school and when I finally went to college (10yrs later), college Algebra was a breeze for me. Now, Michael on the other hand is having major problems with double-digit math...adding and subtracting. He had one page with about maybe 40 math problems, all addition to do as homework today. The first one he said the teacher had put the answer on the board the way she wanted the class to do it and it was different than any other way I'd ever done double digit addition before. I'll put the example below so you can see what I'm talking about:

58
+89
17
130
147
Oh good gravy...I can't get the #s to line up right...the 58 should be right above the 89 and the 17 should be right up under that...I hope that makes sense!

He totally did not get why the 0 (zero) was there so I tried explaining that he was adding 50 + 80, he didn't get that so I told him that the zero was there b/c the 5 & 8 are in the 10's column, not the 1's column, he didn't get that either. So, I told him to try adding them without using the zero but to make sure he put the 17 & 13 in the right spot before adding those two #s together. Which he did and he did get all the right answers, he just didn't understand WHY. So, on a separate piece of paper, I showed him how to do it with carrying the 1 to the column on the left and putting it above the #s and he said his teacher didn't want them to do it that way but that he didn't understand that either. We both ended up SO frustrated and he was crying while finishing the homework page. I felt so bad for him and tried not to get upset while he was crying but it was just so frustrating. I did send his teacher an email telling her the whole thing as well so we'll see how she responds to me tomorrow. I just can't comprehend that he doesn't "get it" since math is so easy for me and I like it so much. Anyone have ANY suggestions at all????

 

Wow sounds alot like our house and counting money with our 8 yo... like banging your head against a brick wall. I would just say repetition repetition repetition!! We got extra math sheets from the teacher and did extras everynight. Try computer games and counting things in piles of ten (beans, q-tips ANYTHING) I have to say I have never seen math done that way either, but for me it would almost be easier than carrying the one.... I am good at Trig and Calc. but can hardly do simple math without a calculator... I'm a dumb smart kid! LOL I never got the zero in multiplying as a child either, I used to use an X instead because it was easier for me to deal with the other numbers... I have no idea why.

I hope this helps a little!

 

Have they done any expanded notation? We don't teach the kids using the method you posted, but we do a lot of work breaking up numbers so kids get what the value of the number in each place is. For instance, 56=50+6(this is expanded notation). We also "made" 56 using 5 10 sticks(10 cubes together) and 6 singe cubes. Of course, we do this for a lot of numbers.

I can see what that method is getting at, but I think it wold confuse some of my students. This one method we teach:

58+89=____
8+9= 17
50+80=130
58+89=147

Mine doesn't line up either. The 17 should be directly above the 130. The snap cubes are a great math manipulative available at teacher stores. I've had a parent make 10 sticks using a popsicle stick and glueing on 10 beans then of course using the single beans for the singles.

 

I was going to add that my 10 year old has been math completely and totally different than any methods I have ever learned. If I had to work problems the way that he does... it wouldn't happen.

Now, having said that, he is awesome in math and they are doing things in the 5th grade that I didn't do until high school.

If the situation is similar, I would see if the teacher has a recommendation of someone who could spend a little one on one time with him so that the focus is on the way that he is being taught. The different methods can be frustrating for both of you.

Yes, my confession of the day. I work in a credit union and crunch numbers all day long, but I can't do today's elementary math.

 

QUOTE(Ange2k25 @ Jan 10 2008, 05:33 AM) [snapback]565725[/snapback]
Have they done any expanded notation? We don't teach the kids using the method you posted, but we do a lot of work breaking up numbers so kids get what the value of the number in each place is. For instance, 56=50+6(this is expanded notation). We also "made" 56 using 5 10 sticks(10 cubes together) and 6 singe cubes. Of course, we do this for a lot of numbers.

I can see what that method is getting at, but I think it wold confuse some of my students. This one method we teach:

58+89=____
8+9= 17
50+80=130
58+89=147

Mine doesn't line up either. The 17 should be directly above the 130. The snap cubes are a great math manipulative available at teacher stores. I've had a parent make 10 sticks using a popsicle stick and glueing on 10 beans then of course using the single beans for the singles.



I tried this as well and he couldn't understand where I got the 50 & 80 from. That's the point where I really started getting frustrated. Tonight they have Math Night at school, which we are DEF attending after last night so we'll see if someone there has some more ideas. Otherwise, I think I'll try pulling out the Qtips and using those to count with him...LOL Good thing I just bought a new pack, huh?

 

Krys, it is actually a first step to learning how to add double digits. The carrying the one is a "shorthand". This method is supposed to help them understand the concept of the one is really a ten. The plus is that it also sets them up for when they learn double digit multiplication.

I would go back a bit and re-teach him that 58=50+8 and 89=80+9 That he should be able to grasp when you look at that on its own.
Then have him add 8+9 and 50+80, and finally add the two sums.

You can also start by giving him small numbers to break down, like anything between 10 and 20, and make groups of tens and ones, and work on how they make up the two digit numbers. It sounds like he really doesn't get the "power of ten". Good luck!

 

Another thing you can try is see if your local library has an online homework help service. My local library has a subscription to Tutor.com's live homework help service, and my son makes use of that all the time. Sometimes just another voice besides Mom's can make a difference in a student's level of understanding. Other than that, I love the idea of using manipulatives. When I taught elementary school, I LOVED using manipulatives to explain concepts, as they made it easier for students to "get" abstract concepts. Good luck!

 

Krys I've been there with Andrea. She practically failed math in early middle school. I couldn't help her, despite the fact that I have always been a math wiz, (I took advanced math classes from the time I was in 7th grade, and had advanced calculus as a senior in HS). My problem was I could tell if she had the answers correct, but I couldn't teach her how to get there. I had forgotten all of the middle steps since I use the short cuts to get to my answers.

What finally helped her was her 8th grade math teacher and his way of teaching her. He was one of my classmates in high school, and he understood both of our frustrations, mine because I understood math but couldn't teach it to her and hers because she couldn't figure out how to get from a to b to c to d. I still don't understand how he taught it to her but she finally got it and by the time she hit freshman year she had A's.

After all that, my suggestion is to talk to the teacher and find out if she/he can get some training materials for YOU. Math is being taught differently now than it was when you and I learned it. If we want to help our kids we need to learn a new way of doing it. In my case it was next to impossible to teach an old dog new tricks, but I was able to find other adults who could help her.

 

"New" math was one of the many reasons DD is homeschooling now. She doesn't "get" concepts like they are teaching your son (and all the other kids out there). She also doesn't understand manipulatives. Unless it is actually 100 of something she sees the manipulative as a 1. If you give her a math problem like 77+54= she can totally do it carrying the 1 and she understands it. But that's not how the teacher wanted it done and I couldn't "get" what the difference was between they way she was wanting and how I was able to get DD to understand as long as the answer was correct. This has gone on with every new concept she has learned. She HATES math because it frustrates her so much. Math also came easily to me so it does get frustrating that she can't get a concept even though she has worked on it for a week. Needless to say we started over on a second grade math curriculum when we switched to homeschooling at Christmas. I hope she realizes how much she does know before we get the parts that were confusing her.

 

We have had the same problem with my SD who is in 4th grade at the beginning of the school year..they definately don't do it like I was taught. Every night she was adding and subtracting every different way except just adding and subtracting the numbers like you or I would. For us it just confused her more and I don't see the point, I realized while doing homework with her one night that she didn't even know how to divide two digit numbers which IMO she should have already known how to do that being in 4th grade already plus I did homework everynight with her. She said she did understand it but the teacher does something different everyday and she forgot she is one of the top students in her class also ...when I was in school we did a whole chapter for the entire week not anymore.

I bought her flashcards and she has a password for a website in school where they practice math. She just got her first report card and she was proficient so she caught on but I wish they would just teach them regular math without all the confusion.

 

QUOTE(sharongl @ Jan 10 2008, 07:21 AM) [snapback]565822[/snapback]
Krys, it is actually a first step to learning how to add double digits. The carrying the one is a "shorthand". This method is supposed to help them understand the concept of the one is really a ten. The plus is that it also sets them up for when they learn double digit multiplication.

I would go back a bit and re-teach him that 58=50+8 and 89=80+9 That he should be able to grasp when you look at that on its own.
Then have him add 8+9 and 50+80, and finally add the two sums.

You can also start by giving him small numbers to break down, like anything between 10 and 20, and make groups of tens and ones, and work on how they make up the two digit numbers. It sounds like he really doesn't get the "power of ten". Good luck!



I agree with Sharon; it seems he doesn't understand that in 58, the "5" means 5 ten's, and the 8 means 8 ones.

I used lego's when we worked on double digit addition and subtraction, and you could also use this for place value. It's similar to the bars and cubes that others have referred to, but we had them at home so we didn't have to buy anything. Show him how 14 legos make ONE stack of ten and FOUR ones. 23 make TWO stacks of 10 and THREE ones. 58 make FIVE stacks of 10 and 8 ones. Etc.

This can be continued as you start adding and subtracting, and it's fairly easy to illustrate why you're adding 50+80 rather than 5 + 8.

My kids are also using a constructivist (aka fuzzy, aka "new new") math program, and I also come from a very strong math background (trig in 10th grade, thus two years of calculus by the time I graduated high school, and continued some with math in college as well). My own sense is that the curriculum changes are going to be viewed as a failed experiment in another decade or so, and that my kids are going to be victims of it. They are two of the top two students in their class, but their computational skills are LOUSY. We have thus started doing a more classical curriculum at home to increase their comfort level. I actually spoke with both their teacher and the principal during the summer about this, and both had no objections. Their teacher said that more and more the teachers are drawing from their older bags of tricks, as though the new program has some strengths, it also has quite a few weaknesses.

 

Wow everyone, thanks for all the advice!!! I spoke with his teacher briefly today and with Michael before I saw the teacher. When I spoke with him, he told me that she explained it another way and when I asked if he understood it now he said, no he still didn't quite get it but he's not as stressed out about it. When I spoke with her, she said that he told her he understood it but then I said that he told me he still didn't quite get it. :umm: So, I think I'll pull out some leggos or matchbox cars or something (I really like the leggo idea b/c they will actually stack) and try that route.

 

QUOTE(krysn2ants @ Jan 10 2008, 10:18 PM) [snapback]567455[/snapback]
Wow everyone, thanks for all the advice!!! I spoke with his teacher briefly today and with Michael before I saw the teacher. When I spoke with him, he told me that she explained it another way and when I asked if he understood it now he said, no he still didn't quite get it but he's not as stressed out about it. When I spoke with her, she said that he told her he understood it but then I said that he told me he still didn't quite get it. :umm: So, I think I'll pull out some leggos or matchbox cars or something (I really like the leggo idea b/c they will actually stack) and try that route.


The nice thing about the lego's is that when it comes time to work on addition with carrying, it's easy to illustrate why, with 58+89, you wind up with an extra 10 from the 8+9. With subtraction, it's easy to show why, if you're doing 61-25, you have to bust up a 10 in the 61 so that you can subtract 5 from 11 instead of 5 from 1. Dimes and pennies work for this, too, but the decimal can complicate things a bit (you don't think 58 cents plus 89 cents as being 147 cents, you think of it as $1.47; dimes/pennies are good for double digit subtraction, though, and showing why you have to borrow/trade/whatever you want to call it.

I won't tell you how they do multi-digit multiplication or simple division, though, because you might flee the country.

As noted, my own kids got SO confused -- DD said that they taught her four different ways of multiplying, but never did any of them enough to get comfortable with them -- that I wound up teaching them the traditional ways for all four operations, but did make sure that they truly understood what they were doing.

 

You've got lots of great advise. I help with math at day care and will steal some of the ideas. I love counters.

Some of the day care kids do their homework with me after school because of night activites or just to have home time as free time. I posted about it here a while ago that I was vindicated because the grade 5 multiplcation way they are learning is one of the ways I figured out how to do it myself years ago (I failed grade 5 math on the first 2 reports, squeeked by in the end) Then we got to the division problems with its new ways, ug. And of the 4 operations division is the one I was good at the old way!