For money from the government.....

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 03:37 PM)


The luxury of me staying home with my babies is a MUST for my family...for my kids, for my husband and for me. Even if we were not military ..I would be staying home..and getting federal aide where I need too..because my kids are more important to me..then working right now.

Brandy


I love the insinuation that my children are not important enough for me to stop working. I have to work, because I don't qualify for federal aide. And I also appreciate the person that choose to agree with that. Lovely bunch, aren't you?

I did not look at this as in insinuation. I look at is as a personal choice. To her her children are more inportant then work at the moment. it was not a dig.

I personally choose not to have my children in daycare b/c I was a nanny for 2 children that NEVER saw their parents and I dont like what it did to them. Not saying that it happens to all children and im not trying to start a debate about daycare b/c its a great thing if you need to use it.

Heck i dont even use a babysitter i always have my children with me. personal chioce.

 

I wasn't saying anything bad about parents that work outside the home. I have worked since I was 16 yrs old. Mostly in day care centers and youth centers. I have seen full time parents who do not know anything going on with their children..and others who know everything. Its not about that. I have also seen SAHM's who have no idea what is going on with their children.

I was saying for me..it is a personal choice and a finacial one that I stay home with my kids. I can honestly NOT afford to work right now. I would love to have adult time..and work outside the house somedays. However, MY family needs me to stay home right now.

Also I am a full time college student..and a veteran. So I do a lot other then sitting on the couch eating bon bons.

I have nothing against people who have to work full time or choose to work full time..instead of staying home with their kids. I do have something against people who think Stay At Home Moms..choose NOT to work.

Brandy

 

Oh and on the subject of government healthcare.

I wish the USA could come up with something like we get from the military. I don't always get the best care...but I always have a choice to go to the ER or the clinic on base. I have never been let down by Tricare. I know a lot of people do not like it..but I think its one of the best "extras" for military personel.

I wish everyone could be as blessed as my family. And I have no problem helping others out..I would rather everyone have healthcare and get the medical help they need..then die in the ER waiting room..because they aren't insured.


But I do not know much about the universal healthcare to really say if this is what WE need for America or not...I just know something needs to be done.

Brandy

 

QUOTE(momotwinsmom @ Jan 27 2008, 09:55 AM) [snapback]591725[/snapback]
I am perfectly fine with not getting the money. I agree that there are people who need it more. My problem lies with those who think it is ok to CHOOSE not work and receive hand outs from the government. That would essentially mean that DH works (I am a SAHM) to put food on our table and others peoples tables as well. It's not right.

And this is where I feel differently. I feel blessed that DH and I have never had to rely on government assistance of any kind, that we have been fortunate enough not to fall on hard times or to need that assistance. But I am happy to be able to pay into a system where those who need the help can get it. I realize this also means in all likelihood we are supporting some people who choose not to work (and that goes back to abuse of the system) but overall I feel it's our duty as citizens of this country to pay into the "system" and help to provide assistance to those who perhaps have not been so lucky in life. Then I also know plenty of people who have the means to pay their taxes and such who will find every loophole out there to diminish their tax liability and to keep more in their pockets. There is abuse of the system in both directions, so to speak. None of us like to pay our taxes but I'd much rather be in the tax bracket I'm in paying these taxes for the good of all, than to be in a lower tax bracket having to rely upon the "system" -- just my perspective. I don't begrudge anyone the help if they truly need it. I do wish we could curtail the amount of abuse that goes on though because I don't like what some of you are also referring to which are the people who could work (not talking about SAHMs here at all since I have been one for a long time -- that's a completely different scenario), are capable of working and helping to provide for themselves, but choose to sit on their butts instead. And we all know these people do exist. That's where the problem lies for me. (ETA: I guess some would consider me a bit of a bleeding heart liberal, lol!)

 

QUOTE
So what about the people that "have to" choose not to work b/c if they did work they would be bringing in less money b/c they would be paying out more in daycare costs then the second income brought in. This is the situation i'm in and several people I know are in. Husbands are busting there butts at working pulling OT when they can and either dont have ins yet or its not offered to cover anyone but the worker themselves.


This is our family and believe me there are many, many more families out there in this same situation then maybe we realize. My children have health care through Medicad as does my SD...DH does not get Child Support DH and I took this option years ago per a Court Stip Agreement to keep her in our primary care.. I receive WIC and Food Stamps. I worked in a Law Firm before the boys but in no way would my job (which I was fully ready to go back to) cover daycare for my boys. DH already works 12 hr. shifts so I would have had to work a second job, which is fine and dandy, but when we sat down to think about our decision/options we as a family decided that both of us working round the clock to pay someone else to raise our 3 children was ridiculous! I just think every family has very valid reasons for choosing to do what they feel is working for their family and that's it.

 

We all choose our standard of living. Regardless of the size of the paycheck (or where it comes from), our children can grow up and know their parents, know love, and experience the selfless sacrifice it takes to stay at home and cherish family. Having worked in day care and child development, the majority of those in that field are underpaid, under trained, and not inclined to give our children the full attention they crave and need. It is interesting that topics progress to family dynamics and priorities. If your priority is wealth and social status, rethink that example you setting for your children (when you see them.)

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 03:38 PM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?


As a working Mom, I take a bit of offense at this statement too. Are you saying those w/o the "courage" to stay at home and raise their children AREN'T raising their own children? I have nothing but the utmost respect for SAHMs, but to imply that working moms aren't putting their needs first is a huge generalization. You don't need to "feel sorry" for my kids.

Like SAHM's, working Moms "never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break, etc". I work 32 hrs a week, so my kids (gasp!) are in daycare 3-4 days/week (depending on DH's schedule). I spend 2 hrs with them in the am, go to work, come home and immediately start the duties ALL Mom's have, SAH or working. Believe me, the schedule is no easier. I really don't mean this thread to go off into a SAHM vs working Mom debate, but I had to comment on this one. Somehow, it's ok to judge those who choose or have to work, but don't dare question a SAHM (?). I really hope I misinterpreted your post. (Working Moms can get sensitive too) I respect your personal choice, please respect mine.


QUOTE(ABCKids @ Jan 27 2008, 03:59 PM) [snapback]591778[/snapback]
We have a very limited health care policy at my DH's company. It is horrible and pays for nothing almost...We have incurred and paid for thousands of dollars just in the kids regular check ups and immunizations. We have no dental and vision at all.

We don't qualify for anything from the government because they say we make too much.

This is a huge part of the problem. Employers often cannot afford to offer comprehensive coverage or choose not too. It's easy to say "find another job", but this isn't realistic. So, there is a huge portion of hard working folks who do not have access to even the most basic health care coverage. This is where I believe, Universal HC can help. It ISN'T a glorified Medicaid program. I don't claim to know how this could possibly be implemented, but some factors that would help are incentives for employers, reigning in the astronomical profits insurance co's are making, and providing for some type of preventative care, especially to children.

 

QUOTE
Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings.
Obviously we can't be talking "working" parents here because the "working" ones I know have similar responsibilities to stay at home parents weekends, nights and mornings, where is the reprieve there?

ETA: Sorry, Petite's post wasn't there when I opened my reply box.

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 04:40 PM) [snapback]591818[/snapback]
We all choose our standard of living. Regardless of the size of the paycheck (or where it comes from), our children can grow up and know their parents, know love, and experience the selfless sacrifice it takes to stay at home and cherish family. Having worked in day care and child development, the majority of those in that field are underpaid, under trained, and not inclined to give our children the full attention they crave and need. It is interesting that topics progress to family dynamics and priorities. If your priority is wealth and social status, rethink that example you setting for your children (when you see them.)



Hmm, ok. It seems I did NOT misinterpret your previous post at all. Thanks for your sweeping generalizations on not just working Moms, but now child care professionals too. Gotta love the "when you see them" dig too. Nice!

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 03:38 PM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?



Blah. I can barely get up the courage to reply to this because it irritated me that bad.... my kids are in daycare (for one more week) and have been for over 2 years, but don't feel sorry for them. They are not being raised outside my home. Courage to stay home? Are you saying that becasue I went to college and am able to work and my income is more than what daycare, gas, lunches cost me that I don't have the courage. No, I just would like to be able to provide the best for my family. I do choose to work, but how dare you even say that I'm leaving my kids with someone else and that I am not raising my children. Shame on you. I don't know if you are SAHM or not, but I don't think that anyone who works outside the home would say that they are leaving their kids for someone else to raise.

Ahh I can't even write anymore because I am that mad, and would probably be kicked off TS for what I actually want to type. My suggestion, think before you reply to a post. I am sure that I am not the only working mom that this struck a nerve for.

 

before this thread goes any farther here can we all just agree to disagree
SAHM 's and Working moms all work very very hard. Family is on the top of everyones list. and each and every person does what he or she sees fit for that family. be it staying home or working. Daycare or no care. Govt help or not..

Every parent wants to do right by their children and we cant judge another person b/c its not the same thing we would do.

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 04:40 PM) [snapback]591818[/snapback]
We all choose our standard of living. Regardless of the size of the paycheck (or where it comes from), our children can grow up and know their parents, know love, and experience the selfless sacrifice it takes to stay at home and cherish family. Having worked in day care and child development, the majority of those in that field are underpaid, under trained, and not inclined to give our children the full attention they crave and need. It is interesting that topics progress to family dynamics and priorities. If your priority is wealth and social status, rethink that example you setting for your children (when you see them.)



Oh my god are you serious? Are you really that judgemental? How freaking dare you even insinuate that my wealth and social status are more important than being with my children. I will not even apologize to you or anyone for the fact that I would like to provide my family more than what just my DH's salary can give us. I DO NOT want to receive government assistance and don't need to becasue I am fully capable of working and went to college so that I could provide for my family. I will not let my kids think it is okay to receive food stamps when there is no need becasue I am not disabled, or have any other reason not to work.

I usually try to stay objective and at least see someone else's point of view. But I think you are so full of yourself and your stay at home mom attitude.
Now, I think it's wonderful for mom's to choose to stay home and I don't think it takes any more courage, but I respect that they never get to clock out and are work more than full time. I know how hard it is to run my house working full time and fitting in all the chores, playtime and everything else in the short amount of time I have, I can imagine never getting a break from that can be hard. But I would NEVER EVER fault someone for working or say that my kids don't get the attention they need.

 

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 10:18 AM) [snapback]591803[/snapback]
Oh and on the subject of government healthcare.

I wish the USA could come up with something like we get from the military. I don't always get the best care...but I always have a choice to go to the ER or the clinic on base. I have never been let down by Tricare. I know a lot of people do not like it..but I think its one of the best "extras" for military personel.

I wish everyone could be as blessed as my family. And I have no problem helping others out..I would rather everyone have healthcare and get the medical help they need..then die in the ER waiting room..because they aren't insured.
But I do not know much about the universal healthcare to really say if this is what WE need for America or not...I just know something needs to be done.

Brandy


I feel exactly like Brandy about this. I have been a military spouse, and the system works pretty well overall. It's not perfect, but it certainly is there when you need it.


QUOTE(MamaKim @ Jan 27 2008, 10:27 AM) [snapback]591809[/snapback]
And this is where I feel differently... I am happy to be able to pay into a system where those who need the help can get it. I realize this also means in all likelihood we are supporting some people who choose not to work (and that goes back to abuse of the system) but overall I feel it's our duty as citizens of this country to pay into the "system" and help to provide assistance to those who perhaps have not been so lucky in life. Then I also know plenty of people who have the means to pay their taxes and such who will find every loophole out there to diminish their tax liability and to keep more in their pockets. There is abuse of the system in both directions, so to speak. None of us like to pay our taxes but I'd much rather be in the tax bracket I'm in paying these taxes for the good of all, than to be in a lower tax bracket having to rely upon the "system" -- just my perspective. I don't begrudge anyone the help if they truly need it. I do wish we could curtail the amount of abuse that goes on though because I don't like what some of you are also referring to which are the people who could work (not talking about SAHMs here at all since I have been one for a long time -- that's a completely different scenario), are capable of working and helping to provide for themselves, but choose to sit on their butts instead. And we all know these people do exist. That's where the problem lies for me. (ETA: I guess some would consider me a bit of a bleeding heart llberal, lol!)


This is pretty much how I feel, too.


QUOTE(PetiteFleur @ Jan 27 2008, 10:43 AM) [snapback]591820[/snapback]
This is a huge part of the problem. Employers often cannot afford to offer comprehensive coverage or choose not too. It's easy to say "find another job", but this isn't realistic. So, there is a huge portion of hard working folks who do not have access to even the most basic health care coverage. This is where I believe, Universal HC can help. It ISN'T a glorified Medicaid program. I don't claim to know how this could possibly be implemented, but some factors that would help are incentives for employers, reigning in the astronomical profits insurance co's are making, and providing for some type of preventative care, especially to children.


This is a huge problem. Smaller employers cannot afford to offer coverage. And then there are some large employers who choose not to offer coverage to low-level employees, who swell the Medicaid rolls--there is no excuse for corporations making it even worse!

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 04:40 PM) [snapback]591818[/snapback]
We all choose our standard of living. Regardless of the size of the paycheck (or where it comes from), our children can grow up and know their parents, know love, and experience the selfless sacrifice it takes to stay at home and cherish family. Having worked in day care and child development, the majority of those in that field are underpaid, under trained, and not inclined to give our children the full attention they crave and need. It is interesting that topics progress to family dynamics and priorities. If your priority is wealth and social status, rethink that example you setting for your children (when you see them.)


Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying that me working every day is setting an example for my kids that is bad? The selfless sacrifice it takes? It's funny, cause a lot of moms on here have commented how they don't carry insurance on themselves. So what happens if, God forbid, something terrible was to happen to them? It would wreck the whole family! Maybe it would be a bigger sacrifice to work out of the home, but better for the family as a whole.

And how dare you suggest my priority is wealth and social status. My full reasoning for wanting to keep as much money as I can, is to provide a good future for my children. To start them off on their journey in like without having to worry about debt, or having to depend on a flawed government for healthcare or food stamps and what else.

The only people who seem obsessed with wealth and social status are the ones that don't have it. I just want to live my life, by some nice things for me and my family, and take care of my own first. I pay my taxes, tons of my money goes to the government to provide funding and support to people who are having troubles in their lives. I'm not saying I shouldn't have to pay my taxes. I'm saying that I don't see why I should be taxed more, just because I make more.

I'll make sure I give my kids a hug later, when I see now. Now I'm going to run out to the mall and buy myself a coach purse, or two. Later, if I find the time, I'll spend 2 minutes with my son, then 2 with my daughter. Then I will happily escape to my home office and count my money.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 05:33 PM) [snapback]591874[/snapback]
The only people who seem obsessed with wealth and social status are the ones that don't have it. I just want to live my life, by some nice things for me and my family, and take care of my own first. I pay my taxes, tons of my money goes to the government to provide funding and support to people who are having troubles in their lives. I'm not saying I shouldn't have to pay my taxes. I'm saying that I don't see why I should be taxed more, just because I make more.


This is the life everyone wants regardless of how much you make. Everyone now is getting into a debate about SAHM vs. working moms. I have done both and they are both extremely hard, self sacrificing roles and they both have their ups and downs. I don't think that anybody should belittle someone just because they work or don't work.

But I do feel that in earlier posts there was a belittlement to SAHM saying that they are choosing to not provide health care to their families because they don't work and they should get off their butts and make the choice to find a job that provides health care. I would hope that we are all smart enough to know that it is not that easy to make that choice. You can't just go out and get a job that is going to provide healthcare to everyone in your family.

I will requote myself again..everyone is missing the big picture here. You want to take care of your own and have a good life...to keep up your standard of living, the entire country needs to have a better standard of living...I still cannot get a straight answer as to why everyone would not want people to have healthcare available to them from the gov't if a system could be made for universal healthcare that really worked.

Someone please answer me why you would not want everyone in this country to have a good standard of care and be taken care of medically. Just because you think you are going to pay more taxes for it??? Again, don't you realize that a MAJORITY of the people that would benefit from universal healthcare ARE PEOPLE THAT PAY TAXES JUST LIKE YOU!!!

QUOTING MYSELF AGAIN BELOW...

It is a shame that when people look at the actual factual numbers of other countries and how well universal healthcare works...that they can sit back and say..."I am insured, my family is insured...that is all that I care about..**** with everyone else. You choose not to get a job that offers health care..that is your problem, not mine"....God..what are we teaching our children and our future of this country with that kind of attitude.

I hope that my kids can someday live in a world were everyone wants to help everybody...there would be healthcare and help for all...everyone can live the American dream and be pulled out of hard times. If things keep going like they are all around...with money, gas prices, economy, healthcare, childcare, etc....every citizen in this country will suffer....even the ones that make "150k" or more per year...because the way of life that we are used to will continue to decline for all.

 

Wow, this thread has been interesting....

I am speaking my opinion in response to many posts, however I did not quote them all because it would get too long. First off I have been a SAHM and a working mom whose husband is deployed....I get no reprieve on weekends, nights or holidays. There have been times I have gone days with no sleep and stressed to the max! Read my old posts, anyone that knows me on here knows how hard the last eight months have been for me. However, sitting at home with my babies was boring, to be completely honest! I wasn't stimulated and felt they needed more than I could give in the form of entertainment. I also did not want to sit around worrying about my husband being in Iraq...not healthy for anyone. So, now my days starts at 5:30am and doesn't stop until about 8:30 at night (if everyone is healthy and goes to bed when they should). I fall asleep around 10pm after folding more laundry, grading more papers, answering emails from parents, etc. to be woken up several times due to a crying baby or someone crawling in my bed, because lord knows they can't come in quietly. I do all the grocery shopping, laundry, dishes, diaper changes, everything (Oh, I do have a housecleaner once a week....my big splurge). I bust my *** on a daily basis and resent anyone implying that because I work I get a break! When I stayed at home, guess what, when the babies napped....so could I! Did I, no, because that is when I usually got stuff done. On weekends when they nap, I write lesson plans, grade papers, fold laundry, load the dishwasher, etc....all those things SAHMs do too. So don't you dare imply I've got it easy because I work! I am deeply offended by this comment and it takes a lot to offend me! Oh, and don't feel sorry for my babies being in daycare either. They love it and have learned so much. They count to 10 in Spanish, take ballet, have learned far more sign language than I could have taught them, they also have made friends....no sympathy needed there. They look forward to me picking them up in the afternoons, and dropping them off in the morning. The kiss me goodbye and run and play!

With DH being in the military we do get healthcare, and some here are satisfied with it, but I have had to fight the system too many times to be satisfied. I find it incredulous that my husband can go and put his life at risk on a daily basis and I can't an approval for a procedure or medication. There are great military hospitals (West Point, where we had the Beans was one of them, Ft. Leavenworth not bad), however where we live now I just wasn't going to jump through the ropes again. We put in a waiver to be seen offpost and now do not deal with the military hospital at all. We are still Tricare and can only see certain doctors, but (knock on wood) the civilian doctors we have worked are great about the paperwork!

My parents did not pay for my college....something about being a teacher wasn't financially smart and I would always be financially dependent upon a man! I paid for it myself with student loans and working two jobs. I graduated in five years and earned $20,000 my first year (before taxes). I thought I was rich! I paid for my apartment, health insurance, car, insurance, and my debts. I may not have always had food money, but I got by. For my master's I worked full-time, planned my wedding (which we paid for ourselves), went to Dave in Korea twice, and still managed to make ends meet and get the job done in a year. If you really want to go to college it can be done regardless of income. My older sister was on welfare the two years she was in nursing school. She took every grant, loan, or scholarship available to her. After two years she paid society back by becoming a contributing member.

I have no sympathy for those that say "I can't find a job" or "I can't do this". If you really want to do it, you will find a way. I have read many posters on here complain about their spouses not being able to find a job, well there is a big employer that is always hiring and at this point will take just about anyone....the military. You may not agree with the war, but if you really want a job there is one out there. Also, if you enlist it will help you pay for college, and the GI Bill can now be transferred to family members....officers, don't get that luxury.

On a different note, to all those out there busting your butts trying to work hard and make ends meet (Dianne, angelsmom, etc) kudos to you ladies! You rock and are my heros! I know those two ladies specifically are single moms who do whatever it takes and after this time with Dave being deployed and trying to do it all on my own, my hat is off to you, you completely ROCK!

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 11:40 AM) [snapback]591818[/snapback]
If your priority is wealth and social status, rethink that example you setting for your children (when you see them.)


Oh.my.god! I started reading this thread about universal health care and this is where it takes us. I wasn't going to respond to any of it and was just enjoying the debate and thinking whether I think universal health care is a good idea when I read this. Even one of the pp's who typed 'courage to stay home' didn't offend.. the quote above so offends me that I have tears in my eyes.

Working does not equal wealth or social status. And working outside the home does not mean that I care for my girls any less than those who choose to/have to stay home (and I understand that for some people it is a financial decision).

I worked hard for my career. While dealing with infertility for 5 years and not knowing if I would ever be a mommy, I worked on getting my PhD. When I finally got pregnant I finished my PhD I landed my dream job. I worked so hard while struggling to start a family because it is who I am and as a way of feeling like a whole person while infertility tried to rob me of that.

I'm proud that I work outside the home and hope to be a role model for my girls. So yes I do think I'm setting a good example for my children (as is my husband- I don't know why we are only talking about WAHM and SAHM, and not dad's too), as we work hard both at work and at home.

I apologize for not responding to the rest of this thread. I don't know how I feel about universal health care and I have no opinion on the recent government rebate bill...

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 08:52 AM) [snapback]591607[/snapback]
Again, it's all about choice. I guarantee there are people making MUCH less money than you who own homes and take advantage of mortgage interest deductions. It's unfortunate that there is no affordable housing close enough to DC. But I also don't believe that. We have family that live in Vienna, VA and said it's about 30 mins to DC, and they just bought a very affordable 2 bedroom condo, for much less than what you mentioned. Somewhere around the 250K range. I'm sure there are people that choose to live in the sketchy areas you mentioned and actually own their homes.

My bro and SIL just sold their 2 br condo for around $350K in the MD suburbs. I have lived in MD most of my life, and the DC area has *always* been expensive. Even with the recent downturn in the market, it's still one of the most expensive areas in the country to live in. If you live too far out, you are faced with horrible traffic and long commutes. I think it's a bit simplistic to say *anyone* can buy a home. Well, anyone did, and look where that got us. (referring to the subprime mortgage crisis)

 

QUOTE(2jellybeans @ Jan 27 2008, 06:29 PM) [snapback]591925[/snapback]
I have no sympathy for those that say "I can't find a job" or "I can't do this". If you really want to do it, you will find a way. I have read many posters on here complain about their spouses not being able to find a job, well there is a big employer that is always hiring and at this point will take just about anyone....the military. You may not agree with the war, but if you really want a job there is one out there. Also, if you enlist it will help you pay for college, and the GI Bill can now be transferred to family members....officers, don't get that luxury.



Again...a major generalization here...saying "join the military" to better yourself and get healthcare. As we all know..that is not possible for all Americans. Universal healthcare would be something that would be for all Americans....(getting back to original post and getting away from SAHM vs. Working mom debate..which is ridiculous...and getting away from everyone having to explain why they are worthy...

I will post my question again..I am still waiting for a good answer...

everyone is missing the big picture here. You want to take care of your own and have a good life...to keep up your standard of living, the entire country needs to have a better standard of living...I still cannot get a straight answer as to why everyone would not want people to have healthcare available to them from the gov't if a system could be made for universal healthcare that really worked.

Someone please answer me why you would not want everyone in this country to have a good standard of care and be taken care of medically. Just because you think you are going to pay more taxes for it??? Again, don't you realize that a MAJORITY of the people that would benefit from universal healthcare ARE PEOPLE THAT PAY TAXES JUST LIKE YOU!!!

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 10:38 AM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?

I do not agree with this at all. Sure, being a SAHM is hard work, but so is working at a job! DH and I chose for me to be a SAHM because it's what works best for us, and for a variety of other reasons that are personal. If others choose to work outside the home, that is their choice and what works best for them. The daycare or nanny is not raising their child(ren), the parents are. Please don't turn this into a "mommy war". We are all the best moms we can be.

 

QUOTE(ABCKids @ Jan 27 2008, 09:48 AM) [snapback]591883[/snapback]
I will requote myself again..everyone is missing the big picture here. You want to take care of your own and have a good life...to keep up your standard of living, the entire country needs to have a better standard of living...I still cannot get a straight answer as to why everyone would not want people to have healthcare available to them from the gov't if a system could be made for universal healthcare that really worked.

Someone please answer me why you would not want everyone in this country to have a good standard of care and be taken care of medically. Just because you think you are going to pay more taxes for it??? Again, don't you realize that a MAJORITY of the people that would benefit from universal healthcare ARE PEOPLE THAT PAY TAXES JUST LIKE YOU!!!

QUOTING MYSELF AGAIN BELOW...

It is a shame that when people look at the actual factual numbers of other countries and how well universal healthcare works...that they can sit back and say..."I am insured, my family is insured...that is all that I care about..**** with everyone else. You choose not to get a job that offers health care..that is your problem, not mine"....God..what are we teaching our children and our future of this country with that kind of attitude.

I hope that my kids can someday live in a world were everyone wants to help everybody...there would be healthcare and help for all...everyone can live the American dream and be pulled out of hard times. If things keep going like they are all around...with money, gas prices, economy, healthcare, childcare, etc....every citizen in this country will suffer....even the ones that make "150k" or more per year...because the way of life that we are used to will continue to decline for all.


This has gotten way off track with all the SAHM vs working mom arguments. That is so not the point. I agree when you say here that you don't understand why people wouldn't want everyone to be provided with healthcare coverage. I really don't get the drawbacks some seem to foresee from universal healthcare. The healthcare system in the States needs to be fixed. Can everyone at least agree on that? I, personally, think some kind of government funded healthcare is the answer. Not our system, or another country's, but your own system that will work for your country. Look at the countries that are having success with universal care & pick the best parts & try to change the parts that aren't working, but something HAS to be done! People are suffering at the hands of insurance companies who seem to pick & choose who to cover & how much it will cost. Unfortunately, it could happen to ANYONE. Those of you who think it can't happen to you, that you will never be without insurance coverage are somewhat naive, in my opinion. There is no way to foresee what could happen in the future.

As for your tax money going to pay for other people, some of which some of you deem unworthy, there are answers to this as well. Income taxes might need to be raised. But there are other places that money could come from as well. Here, in Canada, taxes come from many places. Cigarettes, for example, cost 3 or 4 times as much as in the States. They are heavily taxed because the people using them are then using the health system more than others. Don't want to pay the taxes on cigarettes? Quit smoking. Alcohol is also taxed higher here. Again you don't have to choose to drink it. Gas is also taxed higher. Well, take a bus or walk or ride a bike, maybe choose to drive a more efficient car. These are just examples of taxes that could raise money that you wouldn't HAVE to contribute to. There are many possibilities. Government funded healthcare could benefit EVERYONE not just those in the lower tax brackets. It really isn't the enemy some envision it to be!

 

I think the problem with this issue is that everyone's situation is very different. You can't just categorize people the way it's been done in this thread.

My situation.... I'm a SAHM. Dh makes a salary well under 100k. We live in a modest twin, which allows us to have a small amount we can still set aside each month for savings. When the tax rebate was first discussed we weren't sure we would qualify at all b/c we don't have a huge tax liability due to the child credit we already receive. Now that they are talking about throwing in $300 per kid, we will receive some money. But regarldess I'm not going to begrudge them giving a tax rebate to people who are in poverty. We are very far from wealthy, but we have a roof over our heads, food on the table, clothing for our kids. (much of which is hand me down.) We don't get cable..our one little splurge is internet... we don't eat out. Thankfully his job provides insurance for us. But what happens if my dh had a job without healthcare... I definitely think that at the least healthcare should be available for our kids. I'm not sure how I feel about healthcare for us.

A friend of mine... her dh works for a small business. He only has healthcare for himself. She's a SAHM but also works occasional nights and weekends at a restaurant trying to make ends meet. Her kids are on CHIP (PA's health care for kids). She has no insurance. I'm not going to sit back begrudge any assistance they get. I'm not going to make overarching statements saying that my dh and I made better choices, got better degrees or worked harder than they did... Nor would I sit back and say my friend should go find a job that's full time at night. That's laughable. Anyone who's ever stayed home with their kids realizes that you can't work all night then come home to take care of your kids. When would you sleep?? During the 2 hour nap that they sometimes take?? That's downright dangerous. And for someone with her situation it's fairly unlikely that she would be able to find a job that would cover daycare costs.

I'm not crazy about the idea of universal healthcare but it has nothing to do with begrudging or judging the reasons why people need assistance. I'm just not sure our government could come up with a system that's cost effective, efficient AND still continues to deliver the best health care in the world. I know a couple who has lived in canada for awhile and they've told me stories of cancer patients who wind up coming to the U.S., paying for treatment out of their own pocket b/c they're sitting on a waiting list in canada. I've also heard stories of people in the U.K. coming here for treatment b/c their sitting on a waiting list with major pain from a pinched nerve in their back. Those stories make me a little nervous of universal healthcare.

As far as the rebate, like I said before I even knew if we would qualify I really wasn't sitting back mad that the government would give the money back to others who didn't pay in..even those who didn't work. I just view it as money we've already paid into the government...now it's theirs so our elected officials can do whatever they deem proper with it. Heck, there are so many other programs they waste money on...if I'm going to get ticked out how they spend my money I can come up with much better reasons than a small tax rebate.

Here's the thing too... $1200 or even $2400 isn't going to make or break my budget...and I'm sitting on a very thrifty lifestyle well below 100k... So for those who are earning more than 150k I would think that $1200 looks a bit more like loose change. i know it's all proportional and that many who are at 150k don't have extra money leftover (although that kind of mystifies me.... since like many have pointed out we all have choices...so those who are at 150k also have choices about what level house they buy, what cars, what tv, etc...I would think it'd be much easier to have a little leftover each paycheck if you're earning 150k than if you are earning 65k.... :unknw: ) but proportionally $1200 is much smaller for those who earn over 150k than it is for those who earn much, much less. So I guess I fail to see what the big deal is. If they were giving a rebate based on a certain percentage of your taxes paid, then I guess I could see why the higher income folks would be ticked at being excluded....but this rebate is pretty much a flat rebate..and won't exceed $2000 for most families... that's only 1.3% of your income for someone earning 150k... 3% for someone earning 65k..and almost 7% for someone earning 30k... so clearly that amount of money means a lot more for someone providing for a family at the 30k level no matter what your proportionally increased expenditures are in your local geographical area. I'm sitting here at less than 100k and feel like it's petty to be bickering over $2000 (not that the money wouldn't help a bit.) ...so wouldn't that also follow for those sitting above 150k?

 

QUOTE(ABCKids @ Jan 27 2008, 02:35 PM) [snapback]591980[/snapback]
Again...a major generalization here...saying "join the military" to better yourself and get healthcare. As we all know..that is not possible for all Americans. Universal healthcare would be something that would be for all Americans....(getting back to original post and getting away from SAHM vs. Working mom debate..which is ridiculous...and getting away from everyone having to explain why they are worthy...

I will post my question again..I am still waiting for a good answer...

everyone is missing the big picture here. You want to take care of your own and have a good life...to keep up your standard of living, the entire country needs to have a better standard of living...I still cannot get a straight answer as to why everyone would not want people to have healthcare available to them from the gov't if a system could be made for universal healthcare that really worked.

Someone please answer me why you would not want everyone in this country to have a good standard of care and be taken care of medically. Just because you think you are going to pay more taxes for it??? Again, don't you realize that a MAJORITY of the people that would benefit from universal healthcare ARE PEOPLE THAT PAY TAXES JUST LIKE YOU!!!


I think you missed my point, I am tired of people complaining and whining about not being able to find a job because the economy is struggling or that they are on medicaid because they can't find work. There is work if you want it, it may not be your dream job, but a job is a job is a job. My husband would love to be out of the military and home with us everynight, however he worries about not having a job and providing for his family so he sacrificies and stays in the military. I don't like it, but I understand it. I took a job in a less than desirable school district because I wanted a job, beggars cannot be choosers.

I don't mind a healthcare system that provides for those that do not have it, however I just don't think it should be a crutch that people use. If you are able you should work and contribute to society, however small or large that contributions might be. I don't agree with a welfare system that allows people to stay on it forever. I think there should be a time limit and that you should be actively job searching or going to school in order to get a job. I feel the same with healthcare. I don't mind tax dollars going to help someone who is trying to better themselves. I do have a problem with them going to someone who is looking for a free ride.

 

This thread has gotten completely off track, back on track, and off track again. Please get back on track or this thread is going to be closed.

QUOTE(three_precious_girls @ Jan 25 2008, 11:03 AM) [snapback]589218[/snapback]
This has been bothering me since I saw the thread because it reminded me of the posts many made that universal healthcare meant having a "socialist government".
Lots of people here were against the government providing healthcare for all because it implied socialism and basically believed that insurance should stay privatized.
However, many of those same people are totally excited that the government could be sending them a monetary handout.
Isnt this hypocritical? How can you be against the lower middle class getting health assistance, but for monetary assistance? Depending on the government to give you money because you qualify in a certain bracket is basically depending on those in America that make over 75k individually or 150k as a couple to pay into the government and give it to you. And, this is on top of their taxes as well.
I myself am for universal healthcare, and I am all for assisting those that need help. I dont however see how you can be against one and for another simply because it "helps you out".
I would love to be enlightened to both sides especially someone's view opposite than mine because I am truly not looking for a fight I am just utterly confused...


Just in case a reminder was needed.

 

:love0028:

 

QUOTE(tinalb @ Jan 27 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]591987[/snapback]
As for your tax money going to pay for other people, some of which some of you deem unworthy, there are answers to this as well. Income taxes might need to be raised. But there are other places that money could come from as well. Here, in Canada, taxes come from many places. Cigarettes, for example, cost 3 or 4 times as much as in the States. They are heavily taxed because the people using them are then using the health system more than others. Don't want to pay the taxes on cigarettes? Quit smoking. Alcohol is also taxed higher here. Again you don't have to choose to drink it. Gas is also taxed higher. Well, take a bus or walk or ride a bike, maybe choose to drive a more efficient car. These are just examples of taxes that could raise money that you wouldn't HAVE to contribute to. There are many possibilities. Government funded healthcare could benefit EVERYONE not just those in the lower tax brackets. It really isn't the enemy some envision it to be!


I think the higher tax on cigarettes and alcohol is a great idea....not so sure about the gas! Yikes, can't imagine the cost getting much higher. And where we live if some people had to pay more for gas they couldn't afford to commute....but they also couldn't afford to live close enough to their job to walk. For instance...my dh used to work over in NJ. The commute was around 1.5hours... The houses over there cost like 3x more than where we live here. We would not have been able to afford to live there on his income made, so he had to commute. If the gas prices went astronomical due to a higher tax on them it would have really, really hurt. He was already paying so much for gas each week. And there is no public transportation like trains or buses from here to there, walking is not an option on a 1.5 hour commute! LOL! So you could argue that business would just have to pay higher salary...but eventually that cost will trickle down to everyone anyway.

 

QUOTE(2jellybeans @ Jan 27 2008, 07:52 PM) [snapback]591993[/snapback]
I think you missed my point, I am tired of people complaining and whining about not being able to find a job because the economy is struggling or that they are on medicaid because they can't find work. There is work if you want it, it may not be your dream job, but a job is a job is a job. My husband would love to be out of the military and home with us everynight, however he worries about not having a job and providing for his family so he sacrificies and stays in the military. I don't like it, but I understand it. I took a job in a less than desirable school district because I wanted a job, beggars cannot be choosers.

I don't mind a healthcare system that provides for those that do not have it, however I just don't think it should be a crutch that people use. If you are able you should work and contribute to society, however small or large that contributions might be. I don't agree with a welfare system that allows people to stay on it forever. I think there should be a time limit and that you should be actively job searching or going to school in order to get a job. I feel the same with healthcare. I don't mind tax dollars going to help someone who is trying to better themselves. I do have a problem with them going to someone who is looking for a free ride.


But again...the majority is not looking for a free ride..that is the point. Sure there a lot of jobs out there (I work part time btw)...but a lot of those jobs do not offer health care coverage. Like I said..when you really look at the numbers...most that would benefit from this are working citizens, children and seniors...again...the minority are the type that abuse the system and look for a free ride. Just because people have universal health care...that does not mean that they are going to quit working all together, they still have to pay their bills and keeps roofs over their heads...but how nice to not have to worry about how you are going to pay for your sick child to go to the doctors.

I am missing everyone's point that keep saying things like..."people are looking for free rides", "abusing the system", "get off your butts and get a job that has healthcare"...etc. (Which for anybody that has read my first post...you will see DH and I are making that choice...after getting his 8 years experience that he needs to move up in his industry...we are looking for a new job for him and one of our main sticking points is a great medical package). So we are making that choice to change our own healthcare situation...but not all have this option and I am aware of that. So I again...I am missing the point of everyone that keeps saying these types of things...because again....THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE ARE THE MINORITY!!!

 

QUOTE(2jellybeans @ Jan 27 2008, 11:52 AM) [snapback]591993[/snapback]
There is work if you want it, it may not be your dream job, but a job is a job is a job.


Unfortunately, so many of those jobs no longer have benefits. Many employers are replacing formerly full time positions with several part-time positions so that they don't have to pay things like health insurance. It's hard to blame them, the costs have become so high many of them can't afford to provide insurance even if they wanted to. So, while there may be work if you want it, there isn't necessarily insurance. And it's difficult to pay the high cost of insurance on a part-time salary, even if you are working several jobs.

As for wait lists here in Canada, there has been a problem in the past. I think it is getting better. I know several people in treatment for breast cancer right now, a close family friend who was treated for lung cancer last year, a very good friend whose baby had severe heart issues at birth, & none of them had to wait or go to the US for treatment. They received treatment very quickly & all of them have been happy with their care, as far as I know. I have stated many times that our system isn't perfect, we could use some changes here, too. However, I don't see ANYONE being turned away for care here & no one is going bankrupt because of a serious illness and I think those things are really important.

 

QUOTE(ABCKids @ Jan 27 2008, 03:04 PM) [snapback]592013[/snapback]
But again...the majority is not looking for a free ride..that is the point. Sure there a lot of jobs out there (I work part time btw)...but a lot of those jobs do not offer health care coverage. Like I said..when you really look at the numbers...most that would benefit from this are working citizens, children and seniors...again...the minority are the type that abuse the system and look for a free ride. Just because people have universal health care...that does not mean that they are going to quit working all together, they still have to pay their bills and keeps roofs over their heads...but how nice to not have to worry about how you are going to pay for your sick child to go to the doctors.

I am missing everyone's point that keep saying things like..."people are looking for free rides", "abusing the system", "get off your butts and get a job that has healthcare"...etc. (Which for anybody that has read my first post...you will see DH and I are making that choice...after getting his 8 years experience that he needs to move up in his industry...we are looking for a new job for him and one of our main sticking points is a great medical package). So we are making that choice to change our own healthcare situation...but not all have this option and I am aware of that. So I again...I am missing the point of everyone that keeps saying these types of things...because again....THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE ARE THE MINORITY!!!


You say it is a minority, but I have seen it happen too many times. My question to you is, what is wrong with welfare and healthcare being offered but for limited timeframes? I just don't see how someone who is perfectly healthy and able is not able to find a job. I can't fathom it.
Oh, and I am not talking from my butt here, I have so many family members that would rather mooch off the system then do something about it. My own brother works full-time but has no health insurance. We have been onto him for years about getting something, but no he would rather go drink beer, shoot darts, oh and buy a Lexus SUV! Seriously, he can't afford health insurance but he can afford a $600 a month car payment! Well, low and behold he had a mild heart attack almost two years ago. He could not pay the almost $100,000 in bills, so the hospital wrote it all off for him, kind of like pro bono work. Do you think he learned from this, no, he is still not covered even though my parents have researched it for him and talked to they are blue in the face. His response to them is "Well, if something happens to me, just don't sign anything, then you aren't responsible"....nice, really nice! He is completely healthy now and could work a job that provided insurance, but is lazy, plain and simple. He likes his cush, easy office job....he only has this job because my dad talked his boss into hiring him! He could go work part-time at UPS which offers great benefits to even their part time employees, but that would cut into his time! I have no patience for this way of thinking.
My former brother in law and his siblings have abused so many programs and the system it is sickening. They think running up their credit cards and then filing bankruptcy is the American Dream. My sister was the one that worked so hard to keep them out of bankruptcy and I truly believe the stress from that added to her depression and ultimate suicide.
My mom has these "friends" she knows from when she worked (she is now retired) that think the same thing. They haven't paid taxes in six years! The government has liens on their property and yet they are still going out to bingo, and to Vegas. This woman's daughter will get $1800 in the rebate and is so lazy it is sickening. She gets free daycare, free medical, help with school, and yet her or husband cannot seem to hold down a job! Now why can't they go in the military and become a contributing member to society instead of leech sucking it dry?

 

QUOTE(tinalb @ Jan 27 2008, 08:14 PM) [snapback]592023[/snapback]
Unfortunately, so many of those jobs no longer have benefits. Many employers are replacing formerly full time positions with several part-time positions so that they don't have to pay things like health insurance. It's hard to blame them, the costs have become so high many of them can't afford to provide insurance even if they wanted to. So, while there may be work if you want it, there isn't necessarily insurance. And it's difficult to pay the high cost of insurance on a part-time salary, even if you are working several jobs.

As for wait lists here in Canada, there has been a problem in the past. I think it is getting better. I know several people in treatment for breast cancer right now, a close family friend who was treated for lung cancer last year, a very good friend whose baby had severe heart issues at birth, & none of them had to wait or go to the US for treatment. They received treatment very quickly & all of them have been happy with their care, as far as I know. I have stated many times that our system isn't perfect, we could use some changes here, too. However, I don't see ANYONE being turned away for care here & no one is going bankrupt because of a serious illness and I think those things are really important.


So true...and I have seen a lot of companies that used to offer benefits for the entire family, take away coverage for family and only offer for the worker, then they have to pay a heftly premium to have their family on the benefits package.

Another good point to keep in mind..how many stories that you hear about good working families that do suffer through a terrible illness of themselves or their chilren and lose their homes due to medical bills...that happens a lot in this country..and it is a shame as the medical and drug companies just keep getting richer and richer.

 

A thought that occurred to me (and someone from one of the countries with universal health care correct me if I'm wrong): if we were to set up a universal health care system (let's just pretend they come up with a way to organize it and make it fair), it would be tax supported, but wouldn't we then (unless one chose to add supplemental insurance) have *no* premiums to pay, and *no* co-pays? Wouldn't not having those payments offset any tax increase? (If there was one; the statistics from a previous post indicate that we spend more here on health care and don't have 100% coverage.)

Insurance companies would fight hard against this, because they are for-profit and this would seriously cut into their profits, which are HUGE.

This seems so logical to me. We all pay in a percentage of our income and we all get coverage. If so, the abuse issue becomes much less, since there is no longer a profit motive in defrauding medicaid, for instance. It no longer becomes attractive to stay underemployed in order to qualify for medical benefits. If the care is available to everyone what's the motive to defraud?

As for able-bodied people who are not caring for dependent children or seniors and who are not provided for by a spouse or parents who refuse to work: giving them access to medical care won't change them anyway. Those who absolutely refuse to work are not going to be motivated to work by threatening to take away their medical care.

The people who feel constrained by circumstances to work less or for less money in order to qualify for Medicaid would be free to pursue better-paying jobs and thus stimulate the economy.

It really seems like a win-win for everyone to have health care for everyone, IF a reasonable plan can be developed.

 

QUOTE(rubyturquoise @ Jan 27 2008, 12:20 PM) [snapback]592030[/snapback]
A thought that occurred to me (and someone from one of the countries with universal health care correct me if I'm wrong): if we were to set up a universal health care system (let's just pretend they come up with a way to organize it and make it fair), it would be tax supported, but wouldn't we then (unless one chose to add supplemental insurance) have *no* premiums to pay, and *no* co-pays? Wouldn't not having those payments offset any tax increase? (If there was one; the statistics from a previous post indicate that we spend more here on health care and don't have 100% coverage.)


That is exactly right. No premiums, no co-pay, no insurance forms. You see the doctor, you go home. My example from before, I had four pregnancies, excellent prenatal care, delivered at the hospital, etc. I didn't pay even one penny for any of it.

 

And then if small businesses did not have to pay their part of the health care premiums, they could spend that money on expanding the business and hiring new employees, again a win-win situation for us all.

 

QUOTE(tinalb @ Jan 27 2008, 08:27 PM) [snapback]592039[/snapback]
That is exactly right. No premiums, no co-pay, no insurance forms. You see the doctor, you go home. My example from before, I had four pregnancies, excellent prenatal care, delivered at the hospital, etc. I didn't pay even one penny for any of it.


Out of curiosity what is your tax rate? What percentage of your income goes to the government....?