For money from the government.....

I guess I will reply since I haven't posted in a long time, I always love hot topics

I don't know whether I believe in Universal health care or not, I haven't read that much into it either way to have an opinion. Like others, I like the idea of it. My dd's are on Medicaid, that is the only goverment funded "program" we take part in. DP works in a restaurant as a server and they stopped offering health insurance. I work part time in an emergency room so I am only offered insurance on just myself. DP is covered under his parents BCBS since he is still a full time college student. I work 24 hrs a week and DP works close to 40 hrs/week...not including his full time school schedule. I am planning on starting nursing school in a year when my DP graduates, even though he will immediatley go into graduate school. Do I feel bad about the girls being on medicaid? No. DP and I both pay into the system so I figure we are paying for it anyways. In no way are we lazy, undetermined people. Right now our only option is Medicaid if we want our daughters to have health insurance....literally.

I can honestly say that I DO see people in my work everyday that take advantage of the system. The same drunks come in on a daily/weekly basis. About 95% of them are on Medicaid. A couple have over 200+ visits...just for being drunk. The police find them on the streets and bring them into the ER to sober up. Every single time they are charged for an emergency room visit. There are also people that come in by ambulance for a simple cold or fever, and have even made comments that they don't care if the ambulance ride is $400+ because they "don't have to pay for it". There ARE people who take advantage of the system.

However there ARE people who are trying to "better themselves" like my DP and I who really do NEED the medical assistance because there are no other options.

I don't know, maybe Universal health care would be a good thing in that no one would have to go without coverage...or stress about what the future holds because they are stuck with astronomical medical bills. Like a pp mentioned, there are pros and cons to everything.

 

QUOTE(mystich @ Jan 26 2008, 06:30 PM) [snapback]590856[/snapback]
This is from a political sight with some numbers
"Health care is at the center of almost every public policy issue – from veterans’ affairs to small business to personal finances (nearly half of all bankruptcies are caused by a medical crisis in the family). Access to affordable health care should come with living in the world’s richest, most advanced nation.

But during the Bush administration, the number of Americans living without health insurance has grown from 39.8 million in 2000 to 46.6 million as of the most recent Census Bureau data (2005). That includes 21.5 million people who work full time.

Especially disturbing is that the number of children without health insurance actually grew to 8.3 million in 2005. Children who lack health insurance are more likely to miss school and 70% less likely to get treated for an ear infection.

Overall, we spend 16% of our GDP on health care – nobody else spends more than 11%. Yet every other industrialized country insures 100% of its people, while we leave tens of millions without coverage. We spend 34% of our health care dollars on administrative costs – nobody else spends more than 19%. And in the most recent ranking by the World Health Organization, the U.S. ranked 37th, right between Costa Rica and Slovenia."
Us personally we paid 17,000.00 dollars on health care premiums in 2006 and the years before and that does not cover the $25 copays that we would pay to see the doctor or drug copays or the 75 dollar copay to go to ER. We fall into the 80,000 a year income own our house have IRA's but when I got sick of forking out so much for medical care I decided to switch health insurance to get it privately from the company directly, well everything was almost complete but then I found out I was pregnant they would not cover me I was a risk so yes the only option I had was medicaid and we fell under the 90,000.00 to qualify so yes I did apply and get it and honestly I am so glad cause I would have been uninsured if I did not. I called a lot of insurance companies they all said no they could not cover me.

If we could take out the CEO's who are making a HUGE profit off us paying insurance and I am talking a lot of money

Michael B McAllister earned $3.33 million in compensation as CEO of Humana. "Forbes 2006 Executive Pay list," April 20, 2006.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/AG0Q.html.
John W Rowe earned $22.2 million in compensation as CEO of Aetna. Rowe has since left Aetna. "Forbes 2004 Executive Pay list," April 21, 2005.
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/L...l?passListId=12
&passYear=2005&passListType=Person&uniqueId=S5NI&datatype=Person
Bill McGuire has stock options worth $1.6 billion at the end of 2005, as CEO of UnitedHealth Group. Robert Simison, "SEC Investigates UnitedHealth Over Stock-Options Practices," Bloomberg News, December 27, 2006; Michael Regan, "Business 2006: Who Won, Who Lost," Associated Press,December 26, 2006.

I do believe we need a universal health system like the ones in Europe and Canada. We have fireman, policeman and public schools and we do not pay insurance premiums for those. So health care should fall into that catagory also.
Insurance companies deny people who are paying a lot for insurance the care they do need, they are playing god.
I have been denied a surgery on a pinched nerve and herniated disc by our insurance company and that is when we payed 17 grand for our premuims. But I payed a lot in drug copays and physical therapy copays trying to get better interesting how that works.

With universal health care we would all be treated equally and would more likely get preventitive care before problems got worse so people would be more healthy.
If you take out the middle man Insurance companies, doctor can give better care cause he or she will not have to listen to the insurance company say yes or no to what he or she can do, in other words he or she can treat you and not just give you another pill that the pharmaceutical companies dropped off to experiment on you. But I will not go there cause that is another topic.
Also with medicaid programs even if you make over their qualifying income limits you can still qualify for their program it is a program where they pay some and you pay some. At least that is in this state.
I am sorry if I offend anyone, I am just trying to give my experience with all this. I have been screwed by insurance companies and I do believe we do need a change.


Wow...seeing a post with actual facts and numbers is very interesting and sad...It supports just what I was saying about a big majority without healthcare being actual working families, children ...etc.

 

WOW! I just read the above stats. It makes me sick to death to see all of those crazy numbers!!

 

I just want to add one thing. And this is to CABA:

You preach about how hard you work, what a nice town you live in, etc. etc.
I must say that you were EXTREMELY lucky to have grown up in an upper middle class family that was able to help you afford college and to be the selfish person that you are portraying in all of your posts.

As for me, I grew up in a nice town, nice neighborhood and went to a good school that offered better education than about 85% of my peers, from larger states/cities and better schools received (from personal experience)

My parents worked EXTREMELY hard, sometimes 2 jobs, to take care of us kids, and there were only 2 of us. Unfortunately, the state that I grew up in just doesn't offer the same wages as some other states (at the age of 18 and fresh out of High School, I was doing the exact same job that my mother had been doing for 20 yrs, in a different state, and was earning DOUBLE what she was) but had just as high a cost of living as other states.

Now, they couldn't afford to put both of us kids through college. My brother chose to pay his own way as he went w/o the aid of student loans, and 10 years later is STILL working on his BA, as he only takes as many classes as he can afford to pay in cash. Me, on the other hand, chose to join the military (I to did not want student loans to pay off the rest of my life) and get my education and healthcare benefits that way.

My mother has an incredible drive to be successful, as do I. So you're saying that, for working so hard but not being able to get ahead due to circumstances beyond their/our control, they do not deserve healthcare nor the help of the gov't??

I think you are seriously stereo-typing those that get gov't assistance. To say that they do not work and do not even try to get a job is just ignorant. Granted, a SMALL percentage of those DO take advantage, however, the majority truly do need that help. Having grown up around MANY families (my own included) that needed gov't assistance at some point in their lives, I have personally SEEN the struggle that many of the parents faced, most of the time they WERE working, just not making enough $$ to even put food in their childrens' stomachs....

And for someone who is about to become a SAHM, who's DH will still be in the military, I am proud to say that when I quit working, I will take as much gov't assistance (be it WIC, food stamps, etc) as I can get. Why?? Becuase, being in the military and working for the gov't, we sacrifice SO MUCH (both as Active Duty and as families) that I truly believe that every single military family deserves to qualify for any and all gov't assistance that is available.

I think that, unless you've personally been in these types of indivdual circumstances, you really don't have a leg to stand on to make any comments. I think the general consensus of those of us that HAVE been in those situations is that, given the chance, we'd help out the lower income/needy in a heartbeat.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 02:00 PM) [snapback]589464[/snapback]
I am against universal healthcare. But I am also in that 150K per couple range. I can't help but agree with you. To feel like I pay the most taxes, and then the people that don't make as much get the money back but I don't, just doesn't seem fair. That's why I was saying that because SAHM don't pay taxes, the household should be treated as 1 person working. And by working I mean getting a paycheck that gets taxes taken out of it. Lord knows that no one works as hard as a SAHM.

I went to college, got a good job, and work hard so that I can have good health benefits. Explain to me where the drive to succeed in life comes from if the government is going to pick up the slack for the people who don't do that. Really, I might as well quit my job and working part time somewhere and make less money so that i can keep the money I make, and the government can take care of me.
I am a SAHM who also went to college, got a good job and worked hard, but then we chose for me to stay home and raise our family while DH continued to work and pay taxes. Our household is still paying PLENTY of taxes, believe me. We are not rich by any means, but DH has a good paying job. Yes, we may qualify for the rebate and I'm not complaining. If someone wants to send me money, go for it! However, if I was still working full-time (I recently started back part-time) we'd be in the $150K tax bracket right now. Honestly, if that were the case I'd be fine with not receiving a rebate because I feel fortunate we have been so blessed as to never need any type of government assistance. We have more than we need and then some. Not all working families can say that and some are working darn hard to just put a roof over their heads and food on their plates. Sure we had to make some sacrifices for me to be home full-time but now that my boys are teens and I can go back to making money again as well, if that bumps us into a higher tax bracket, then I'm happy to be able to do my part. I get frustrated that people who have been blessed with money and great paying jobs/careers don't seem to want to pay into the system because they aren't getting anything back in return. I'm happy to help out others who haven't been nearly so fortunate with their lives or careers.

QUOTE(rubyturquoise @ Jan 25 2008, 02:34 PM) [snapback]589558[/snapback]
I also went to college and had a good job, etc. Now I am a SAHM because who deserves my education and training more than my kids?

I just think it's strange for our country to preach Family Values and then devalue child care, and for that matter, health care. What kind of Family Value is represented in uninsured kids? My DH is self-employed and it is Not Cheap to get private health care.

There are plenty of people who work very, very hard (at paid employment) for companies that don't offer health care that can't afford private insurance. I do think there should be some option available to them besides "gee, I hope this illness isn't serious." My ILs, also self-employed, were between insurances (actually switching, but one agent was a little slow) and MIL cut her hand and it was $10,000 to get it fixed (which they paid for out of pocket). Plenty of people who work very hard cannot come up with $10,000 to fix an injury. Are we to blame them for their bad luck and punish them with no access to medical care?

It is possible to work every bit as hard as someone else and not make as much money. It hardly seems fair to consider that person less deserving of medical care.
Very well said. There are just so many different reasons people do not have adequate health care or even any health care at all.

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 25 2008, 06:11 PM) [snapback]589981[/snapback]
Do you own your own house? Do you deduct the mortgage payments? That is a government subsidy (just like Medicare). Did you take out government subsidized loans to pay for your college education? Oops, another "handout". Do you have an IRA? Yep, another government sponsored subsidy. It is hypocritical to take advantage of these programs and want to take similar programs away from those less fortunate than yourself.
Ellen, that was great! I happen to agree.

QUOTE(rubyturquoise @ Jan 25 2008, 06:49 PM) [snapback]590018[/snapback]
Everyone who makes enough money to qualify for a mortgage, that is. If you don't, you cannot deduct your rent payment, necessary though it is to have living quarters. So, not actually available to everyone.

If your parents make "too much" money you cannot get a subsidized loan, even if your parents are not able to pay for your education. Ask me how I know. So, again, not available to to everyone. (Not that anyone asked, but I paid for my entire college education myself and did not borrow any money or get any from my parents.)

And, yes, techically anyone can start an IRA, but probably only people who have income sufficiently above their basic needs can actually do this. I'm sure that most people would first choose to pay for health care, and this might not leave enough to start an IRA.

I guess where I differ is in not having resentment toward people who are able to take advantage of programs I cannot. I can take advantage of other things (like mortgage deductions) instead.
Again, very well said.

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 25 2008, 08:38 PM) [snapback]590195[/snapback]
I would only point out the same things Ruby already has. But, based on your response I obviously misunderstood your position. I thought you were against all government handout-type programs. But you are simply against government handout programs for poor people. As long as you have yours, the rest be damned. Nice.

Your attitude is not unusual, unfortunately. I was lamenting this to my husband the other day. Things are tighter for people these days, and maybe there isn't as much to spare, but if there were no public libraries or public spaces there is no way that they'd get created now. "Why should my taxes go to purchasing books for other people to use!? They should just get a job and buy their own!" To me, libraries are a way to offer education to all, access to a better life for all. They don't "take away" from me or my share, they add to it by making this a better place to live. Healthcare (welfare, whatever) is the same to me. I don't want to live in a country where more than half of the population is unhealthy and suffering. That would take away from my quality of life. So, even if I had to pay for it, it would be worth it to me.
Ellen, I agree as well.

As far as the universal health care issue, I do know something has to be done to equalize the system and to help even out costs. It's by no means equitable at all and way too many people cannot even afford health care period with two couples working. It's just so frustrating.

 

QUOTE
However, if I was still working full-time (I recently started back part-time) we'd be in the $150K tax bracket right now. Honestly, if that were the case I'd be fine with not receiving a rebate because I feel fortunate we have been so blessed as to never need any type of government assistance. We have more than we need and then some. Not all working families can say that and some are working darn hard to just put a roof over their heads and food on their plates. Sure we had to make some sacrifices for me to be home full-time but now that my boys are teens and I can go back to making money again as well, if that bumps us into a higher tax bracket, then I'm happy to be able to do my part. I get frustrated that people who have been blessed with money and great paying jobs/careers don't seem to want to pay into the system because they aren't getting anything back in return.


I honestly don't think you would feel like it was fair if you were in that situation, but maybe you would. I think people assume how they would feel, or would like to think that it wouldn't bother them, but what if the cut off was $50,000 and everyone below that got the rebate this year? Wouldn't it feel like you were a hard working member of society and deserved a REBATE too? I simply think the rebate should be a standard percentage for everyone, like they just did for us in Oregon with our state rebate. It felt fair, it was fair. Everyone got the exact same percentage back from the amount they paid in.

And I don't think that anyone in the 150K+ bracket "don't seem to want to pay into the system". We are contributing far more than anyone else. We are contributing! Why is it that if you make over a certain amount it's suddenly okay to take your money/not get a rebate? I simply don't understand how it's part of the values that this country was founded on.

And just so everyone knows, I didn't get a leg up in life. My parents said "Good luck!" when I said I wanted to go to college. No one helped me apply, or graduate or pay back all my loans. I did it myself. I've made sure I always had my own health care, even as a student. I paid for Cobra for 18 mos. after my husband died. I didn't go on assistance, I just figured it out myself and took care of my family. Even when I was a poor student, I never begrudged those making more or felt like I was "owed" something. And I have always donated 10-15% of my income to charity. Making 150K+ doesn't mean you're uncharitable or not willing to help others. I think there's a strong prejudice on here.

 

Heck, I'd honestly be OK with it now if they said we didn't qualify. We need the money a whole lot less than some other families we know. We are blesssed to have our needs covered and then some.

 

It's not that we need the money. I disagree with the term "tax rebate" when it's not a rebate on the taxes you paid. Maybe it's because I live in a state where they ARE fair when they do rebates, so I can't help but compare.

 

My mother kept grousing that they aren't getting any money, and then my father finally said "Geez, sorry! Would you rather us qualify for it?" (my parents are fairly well-off, business that started with two trucks and hard work). Mom stopped grousing after that. It's not like $1200 was going to make much of a difference in their daily lives, and I doubt they would go blow it on a new TV or whatever.

 

QUOTE(DinaJ @ Jan 26 2008, 10:44 PM) [snapback]591455[/snapback]
Why is it that if you make over a certain amount it's suddenly okay to take your money/not get a rebate? I simply don't understand how it's part of the values that this country was founded on.


That's an easy answer! It's not

QUOTE(DinaJ @ Jan 26 2008, 10:44 PM) [snapback]591455[/snapback]
Making 150K+ doesn't mean you're uncharitable or not willing to help others. I think there's a strong prejudice on here.


Agreed. I also don't think that people should be made to feel bad because they don't want to be forced to give to others at the expense of their own families. It might just be my poor skimming skills, but I sense that a lot of posters are equating "not wanting to give handouts to those able to help themselves" with "lack of compassion and/or uncharitableness for all." Right now my tax money is going into a giant pot from which the unable and unwilling both draw. I like helping the unable, but frankly, I don't want to help the unwilling. Unfortunately I have no say in how my contribution to the pot is spent.

 

QUOTE(Mellizos @ Jan 26 2008, 11:58 AM) [snapback]590582[/snapback]
Buying a house is not available to everyone. But you make the assumption that those with a decent income can qualify for a mortgage. We have EXCELLENT credit, have saved tens of thousands of dollars for a down payment....but...we are priced out of the market. I also work for the federal govt and my career is only available in Washington DC (when we're in the US). Try $400,000 for a 2 bedroom condo. That's like $3,500/month for the mortgage, insurance and condo fee.


Now that I'm catching up on all this I figured I might as well have my say. I'm too thick headed to leave well enough alone.

Should I feel bad for you? Would you feel bad for me if I said i've saved money, but I still can't afford that brownstone in NYC? or I can't afford a home in Beverly Hills?? Would you feel bad for me if I said I don't qualify for a mortgage on a million dollar home? That's ridiculous. You can't buy because you are CHOOSING to buy in a very expensive market. You would qualify fine for a mortgage if you have excellent credit and saved tons of money. Just not where you want to live. That's no ones choice but your own. You could easy cross the border into VA and buy something there. Just like all the millions that work in NYC but live in NJ because NYC is ridiculously priced. Your point doesn't make any sense about mortgages being available to anyone. They are available to everyone, but if you don't have good credit, or can't afford to live in a place you CHOOSE, that's a totally different story.

 

QUOTE(Jersey_Girls @ Jan 26 2008, 09:49 PM) [snapback]590979[/snapback]
I think the whole point of the rebate was to put money in the hands of people who aren't currently spending money (because they don't have it) to spend or pay down debt- to boost the economy. Those of us in the $150+ category ARE spending money. I think the idea is that your economic bracket does not need the incentive to spend.


What makes you think that I am spending money? Who are you to assume that just because I am making above $150K I have all this extra money to spend?? It's SO funny how people think just because we have a higher salary, we are running around buying all this stuff! I have NO extra money a month. When the kids start daycare, there will be more money going out than coming in. That's a fact. We will probably be taking some loans or borrowing against our retirement to make sure we can afford daycare. Please don't make assumptions about what I'm doing with my money. Some people said they were going to go on vacations with their rebates. Mine will be going directly to my daycare.

 

QUOTE(RachelJoy @ Jan 26 2008, 10:49 PM) [snapback]591036[/snapback]
I do NOT believe that because someone doesn't work (either because they can't work, can't find a job, or chooses not to work) that they and their families should be denied healthcare.

Yes, you could quit your job and work one day a week and be with your kids, but it would probably affect your standard of living in many ways other than healthcare.


This is where I respectfully disagree. If you CHOOSE not to work, I don't think you should have government sponsored health insurance. If you can't work, if you are actively trying to find work, if you fall on hard times, if something horrendous happens (hurricane katrina) there should be government policies in place to cover your family. But if you CHOOSE? Nope. I don't think you should get it then. Sorry.

If I quit my job, we would have to sell our house. ****, even if I keep working with the price of daycare we are considering it. But the housing market is so bad right now, I don't think we could sell our house even if we wanted to. But besides that, not much would change. You assume that I buy Manolo Blahniks every other week and eat out 6 nights a week? Is that why my standard of living would change? Yeah, not so much.

 

QUOTE
Should I feel bad for you? Would you feel bad for me if I said i've saved money, but I still can't afford that brownstone in NYC? or I can't afford a home in Beverly Hills?? Would you feel bad for me if I said I don't qualify for a mortgage on a million dollar home? That's ridiculous. You can't buy because you are CHOOSING to buy in a very expensive market. You would qualify fine for a mortgage if you have excellent credit and saved tons of money. Just not where you want to live. That's no ones choice but your own. You could easy cross the border into VA and buy something there. Just like all the millions that work in NYC but live in NJ because NYC is ridiculously priced. Your point doesn't make any sense about mortgages being available to anyone. They are available to everyone, but if you don't have good credit, or can't afford to live in a place you CHOOSE, that's a totally different story.


No, I don't expect you to feel sorry for me. I was merely pointing out that the mortgage interest deduction is a govt subsidy for the class of people who own houses.

And no, I do not choose to buy (or not buy as is the case) in an expensive market. I have NO choice. My career is only available in Washington. That's it. I am a public servant and go where the govt sends me - much like the military. If I want to live in the US with this career, then Washington it is. I suppose I could change careers, but the taxpayers have invested millions (not exaggerating, millions) of dollars in training and deploying me around the world. It's not so easy just to switch careers when you feel an obligation to all the people making over $150K paying 33% of their income in taxes.

And I guess I didn't explain myself well when I talked about a 2 bedroom condo for $400k. I was talking about VA. No way we could afford to buy in Georgetown or NW Washington. I won't live in a crack ghetto in the other parts of the District. Even the sketchy areas have prices above and beyond what a govt employee can pay.

I went to college and grad school. I worked hard to get into a difficult, even some would call elitist profession. We waited until our 30s, with no debt, to have kids. We live wayyyyy below our means and save gobs of money every month. So even though I did everything "right", but even your calculations, but still I cannot achieve the lifestyle that you have established for yourself and your family. I would like to own a home, but it just isn't a possibility right now, or maybe even ever. I just wanted to point out that not everyone can achieve that $150k goal even under the best of circumstances. But you're more than welcome to advocate to your Congress(wo)man that we deserve a raise.

 

QUOTE(Mellizos @ Jan 27 2008, 01:42 PM) [snapback]591601[/snapback]
No, I don't expect you to feel sorry for me. I was merely pointing out that the mortgage interest deduction is a govt subsidy for the class of people who own houses.

And no, I do not choose to buy (or not buy as is the case) in an expensive market. I have NO choice. My career is only available in Washington. That's it. I am a public servant and go where the govt sends me - much like the military. If I want to live in the US with this career, then Washington it is. I suppose I could change careers, but the taxpayers have invested millions (not exaggerating, millions) of dollars in training and deploying me around the world. It's not so easy just to switch careers when you feel an obligation to all the people making over $150K paying 33% of their income in taxes.

And I guess I didn't explain myself well when I talked about a 2 bedroom condo for $400k. I was talking about VA. No way we could afford to buy in Georgetown or NW Washington. I won't live in a crack ghetto in the other parts of the District. Even the sketchy areas have prices above and beyond what a govt employee can pay.

I went to college and grad school. I worked hard to get into a difficult, even some would call elitist profession. We waited until our 30s, with no debt, to have kids. We live wayyyyy below our means and save gobs of money every month. So even though I did everything "right", but even your calculations, but still I cannot achieve the lifestyle that you have established for yourself and your family. I would like to own a home, but it just isn't a possibility right now, or maybe even ever. I just wanted to point out that not everyone can achieve that $150k goal even under the best of circumstances. But you're more than welcome to advocate to your Congress(wo)man that we deserve a raise.


Again, it's all about choice. I guarantee there are people making MUCH less money than you who own homes and take advantage of mortgage interest deductions. It's unfortunate that there is no affordable housing close enough to DC. But I also don't believe that. We have family that live in Vienna, VA and said it's about 30 mins to DC, and they just bought a very affordable 2 bedroom condo, for much less than what you mentioned. Somewhere around the 250K range. I'm sure there are people that choose to live in the sketchy areas you mentioned and actually own their homes.

 

QUOTE(tickled_pink @ Jan 27 2008, 01:02 AM) [snapback]591153[/snapback]
I just want to add one thing. And this is to CABA:

You preach about how hard you work, what a nice town you live in, etc. etc.
I must say that you were EXTREMELY lucky to have grown up in an upper middle class family that was able to help you afford college and to be the selfish person that you are portraying in all of your posts.

As for me, I grew up in a nice town, nice neighborhood and went to a good school that offered better education than about 85% of my peers, from larger states/cities and better schools received (from personal experience)

My parents worked EXTREMELY hard, sometimes 2 jobs, to take care of us kids, and there were only 2 of us. Unfortunately, the state that I grew up in just doesn't offer the same wages as some other states (at the age of 18 and fresh out of High School, I was doing the exact same job that my mother had been doing for 20 yrs, in a different state, and was earning DOUBLE what she was) but had just as high a cost of living as other states.

Now, they couldn't afford to put both of us kids through college. My brother chose to pay his own way as he went w/o the aid of student loans, and 10 years later is STILL working on his BA, as he only takes as many classes as he can afford to pay in cash. Me, on the other hand, chose to join the military (I to did not want student loans to pay off the rest of my life) and get my education and healthcare benefits that way.

My mother has an incredible drive to be successful, as do I. So you're saying that, for working so hard but not being able to get ahead due to circumstances beyond their/our control, they do not deserve healthcare nor the help of the gov't??

I think you are seriously stereo-typing those that get gov't assistance. To say that they do not work and do not even try to get a job is just ignorant. Granted, a SMALL percentage of those DO take advantage, however, the majority truly do need that help. Having grown up around MANY families (my own included) that needed gov't assistance at some point in their lives, I have personally SEEN the struggle that many of the parents faced, most of the time they WERE working, just not making enough $$ to even put food in their childrens' stomachs....

And for someone who is about to become a SAHM, who's DH will still be in the military, I am proud to say that when I quit working, I will take as much gov't assistance (be it WIC, food stamps, etc) as I can get. Why?? Becuase, being in the military and working for the gov't, we sacrifice SO MUCH (both as Active Duty and as families) that I truly believe that every single military family deserves to qualify for any and all gov't assistance that is available.

I think that, unless you've personally been in these types of indivdual circumstances, you really don't have a leg to stand on to make any comments. I think the general consensus of those of us that HAVE been in those situations is that, given the chance, we'd help out the lower income/needy in a heartbeat.


Ugh. So much anger. First of all, I was LUCKY. My parents made our life possible. My mom grew up in a working class single parent home. When she moved out, she didn't take any finicial help with her. My dad moved to the US from Germany when he was 19 without a dollar to his name. They had 3 kids, my mom SAHM for years until my dad lost his main job. He still had his other 2 part time jobs. He decided to make his part time work full time, and start his own painting/wallpaper business. My mom went back to work to get benefits for our family. It was tough then, as my dad's business just started, but they made it work. So no, it wasn't LUCK. And I am not selfish, but you don't know me at all, do you?

And I payed for my own college too. Still paying off those loans with all that EXTRA money I have lying around.

I agree that government employees (as the military most certainly is) should get healthcare for their whole families. I didn't realize that this wasn't the case. I assumed since the government is your husbands employer, your whole family would be covered.

As for walking in your shoes, nope, never been there. But to say I'm not entitled to my opinion is not true or fair. You have no problem judging me, I think I'm entitled to do the same.

 

QUOTE(MamaKim @ Jan 27 2008, 04:47 AM) [snapback]591456[/snapback]
Heck, I'd honestly be OK with it now if they said we didn't qualify. We need the money a whole lot less than some other families we know. We are blesssed to have our needs covered and then some.


Lucky you. We don't have the "then some".

 

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 26 2008, 01:38 AM) [snapback]590195[/snapback]
I would only point out the same things Ruby already has. But, based on your response I obviously misunderstood your position. I thought you were against all government handout-type programs. But you are simply against government handout programs for poor people. As long as you have yours, the rest be damned. Nice.


Ugh. I think I'm so public enemy #1 that people have just stopped reading what I write, they see my name, and say something rude.

I never said I was against all government hand outs for poor people. And maybe you haven't taken the time to read it very carefully. I think that there should be government programs in place to help people get out of situtations where they have to accept government aid. Isn't that what it's all about? Self sufficiency? Maybe that's just me again, but I wouldn't want to be sitting back taking aid, without fully trying to get off it. Now that being said, I'm sure that's what a lot of people out there are doing. Probably most. So yeah! That's good. My problem is when you choose not to. You take the aid, and sit back and enjoy it. I'm not ok with that and I never will be. I pay my taxes. I give tons of money. I dont want to give more for universal healthcare. That's my right.

But to a certain extent, I do want to take care of my family first. I would rather save money for my kids to go to college so that they don't have to have tons of debt when they get out, like I do/did. I would rather my money go to them, then to someone else's healthcare because they CHOOSE not to work. So go ahead and throw your stones. I've taken so many, whats a few more. At this point, it's almost comical.

 

QUOTE(Jersey_Girls @ Jan 26 2008, 05:18 PM) [snapback]591004[/snapback]
How will your plan help boost the economy?

It's not a plan, just my opinion. I highly doubt this rebate will boost th economy. Most people will take th rebate, pay off debt and then bring themselves right back to the same spot concerning debt. It's a viscous repetitive cycle. No one wins. I digress. The economy needs more hlelp than handing out rebates. That just digs a larger hole for out national debt anyway. How is the rebate helping that?

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 01:38 PM) [snapback]591598[/snapback]
This is where I respectfully disagree. If you CHOOSE not to work, I don't think you should have government sponsored health insurance. If you can't work, if you are actively trying to find work, if you fall on hard times, if something horrendous happens (hurricane katrina) there should be government policies in place to cover your family. But if you CHOOSE? Nope. I don't think you should get it then. Sorry.


So what about the people that "have to" choose not to work b/c if they did work they would be bringing in less money b/c they would be paying out more in daycare costs then the second income brought in. This is the situation i'm in and several people I know are in. Husbands are busting there butts at working pulling OT when they can and either dont have ins yet or its not offered to cover anyone but the worker themselves.

As I stated in a different post my husband worked for a company that offered ins but it was more then what he made a month to carry it so we had to pass. Got a new job that would cover the whole family and the company went under we went weeks with no income b.c they could not afford to pay us. Now hes at another new job but with out ins for 120 days.

So I guess with all that my kids dont deserve to have healthcare b/c there mom does not work right. No one will hire someone that does not know what time they can start b/c dh hours vary each and everyday. . maybe I should work midnights and sleep all day and let me kids care for themselves. Ill be sure to tell him that theres some people in the world that think his mom needs to get off her @ss and get a job so he has the right to medical attention when hes have trouble breathing.

ETA: My husband and i do not have ins only my children do.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 08:38 AM) [snapback]591598[/snapback]
This is where I respectfully disagree. If you CHOOSE not to work, I don't think you should have government sponsored health insurance. If you can't work, if you are actively trying to find work, if you fall on hard times, if something horrendous happens (hurricane katrina) there should be government policies in place to cover your family. But if you CHOOSE? Nope. I don't think you should get it then. Sorry.

I completely agree. If someone CHOOSES not to work, then no, I do not think they should receive government aid. It's not right!

 

So now Stay at Home Moms...choose NOT to work?? I don't understand who we are talking about here...who chooses NOT to work? what about jobs that aren't available? Or pay that is so low that if a SAHM did work it would all go to daycare?

Also when did being a Stay at Home Mom..become NOT working? I work my butt off..and get paid nothing.

Oh wait..I get federal money for going to school..and my VA payments. I guess I shouldn't get that either..because I "choose not to work"????

Who are you talking about here? Please clear this up for me..

Brandy

 

QUOTE(nikki_0724 @ Jan 27 2008, 02:32 PM) [snapback]591679[/snapback]
So what about the people that "have to" choose not to work b/c if they did work they would be bringing in less money b/c they would be paying out more in daycare costs then the second income brought in. This is the situation i'm in and several people I know are in. Husbands are busting there butts at working pulling OT when they can and either dont have ins yet or its not offered to cover anyone but the worker themselves.

As I stated in a different post my husband worked for a company that offered ins but it was more then what he made a month to carry it so we had to pass. Got a new job that would cover the whole family and the company went under we went weeks with no income b.c they could not afford to pay us. Now hes at another new job but with out ins for 120 days.

So I guess with all that my kids dont deserve to have healthcare b/c there mom does not work right. No one will hire someone that does not know what time they can start b/c dh hours vary each and everyday. . maybe I should work midnights and sleep all day and let me kids care for themselves. Ill be sure to tell him that theres some people in the world that think his mom needs to get off her @ss and get a job so he has the right to medical attention when hes have trouble breathing.


Yup. I think that people say they have to not work, but it's usually not "have to". Do you own a home? Do you have cable? How about a computer with this internet access? Like someone said, you live to your means. If you COULDN'T get coverage for your children, my bet would be that you would get rid of every luxury you have to ensure they did. I'm not saying that is the answer, obviously people need to live. But I bet there are ways. My Dad worked at night when we were young. Besides his full time job during the day. And did painting on the weekends. This was to ensure my mom could stay home, and we could still eat. So yeah, you could get a job when your DH got home. This way he could watch them at night, and you during the day. That would mean more coming in, and you could possibly pay into health coverage, or at least start saving money.

So my question is, what if I run up my credit cards, and get my house forclosed on, and can't afford all the things I bought. Should I get government paid for healthcare? Should I get food stamps? What if I choose to have more kids that I can't afford? What if I quit my job today to stay home with my kids, and my husbands company didn't offer insurance. Do I deserve help? Even though we have a nice house and 2 cars? Even though I put myself in the situation?

 

QUOTE(MamaKim @ Jan 26 2008, 11:47 PM) [snapback]591456[/snapback]
Heck, I'd honestly be OK with it now if they said we didn't qualify. We need the money a whole lot less than some other families we know. We are blesssed to have our needs covered and then some.

I am perfectly fine with not getting the money. I agree that there are people who need it more. My problem lies with those who think it is ok to CHOOSE not work and receive hand outs from the government. That would essentially mean that DH works (I am a SAHM) to put food on our table and others peoples tables as well. It's not right.

 

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 02:48 PM) [snapback]591712[/snapback]
So now Stay at Home Moms...choose NOT to work?? I don't understand who we are talking about here...who chooses NOT to work? what about jobs that aren't available? Or pay that is so low that if a SAHM did work it would all go to daycare?

Also when did being a Stay at Home Mom..become NOT working? I work my butt off..and get paid nothing.

Oh wait..I get federal money for going to school..and my VA payments. I guess I shouldn't get that either..because I "choose not to work"????

Who are you talking about here? Please clear this up for me..

Brandy


Tons of people choose not to work. What a weird question!

Being a SAHM is not a paid job. That's what I was talking about. And I do believe you get paid, in love and kisses and the ability to be home with your children all day. That is something a lot of people CAN NOT afford, and would definitely look at as a luxury.

People who are actively pursuing work or are laid off etc, were not included in this group.

You could always work at night.

Everyone deserves student loans, I don't know if that's what you meant by federal money.

 

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 09:48 AM) [snapback]591712[/snapback]
So now Stay at Home Moms...choose NOT to work?? I don't understand who we are talking about here...who chooses NOT to work? what about jobs that aren't available? Or pay that is so low that if a SAHM did work it would all go to daycare?

Also when did being a Stay at Home Mom..become NOT working? I work my butt off..and get paid nothing.

Oh wait..I get federal money for going to school..and my VA payments. I guess I shouldn't get that either..because I "choose not to work"????

Who are you talking about here? Please clear this up for me..

Brandy

I am a SAHM too. Someone who chooses not to work (this is my opinion) is someone who would rather collect governement aid then actively going to look for a job. Any job. Period. When I was in college, my Dad was almost laid off. he wasn't sure if it was going to happen or not. I told him I could stop going to school and get a job for a bit then go back. He said NO WAY. I don't care if I have to pump gas, you are going to college. He was choosing to do a job beneath his skills to make it possible for me to go to college. He was NOT choosing to not work. He would rather pump gas, then collect government aid. That is an example of what I mean when I say someone who chooses not to work. A SAHM is choice made between spouses. It is not what I am referring to here.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 02:53 PM) [snapback]591721[/snapback]
Yup. I think that people say they have to not work, but it's usually not "have to". Do you own a home? Do you have cable? How about a computer with this internet access? Like someone said, you live to your means. If you COULDN'T get coverage for your children, my bet would be that you would get rid of every luxury you have to ensure they did. I'm not saying that is the answer, obviously people need to live. But I bet there are ways. My Dad worked at night when we were young. Besides his full time job during the day. And did painting on the weekends. This was to ensure my mom could stay home, and we could still eat. So yeah, you could get a job when your DH got home. This way he could watch them at night, and you during the day. That would mean more coming in, and you could possibly pay into health coverage, or at least start saving money.

So my question is, what if I run up my credit cards, and get my house forclosed on, and can't afford all the things I bought. Should I get government paid for healthcare? Should I get food stamps? What if I choose to have more kids that I can't afford? What if I quit my job today to stay home with my kids, and my husbands company didn't offer insurance. Do I deserve help? Even though we have a nice house and 2 cars? Even though I put myself in the situation?


NO i dont own my own home. I paid cash for a manufactured home with a tax refund 2 years ago to get out of an apartment payment that was 600.00 a month to a rent payment that was under 400.00. I do have cable for the first time in 5 years!! only watched 1 channel for 5 years. and I have interenet b/c Im on a free trail from aol. b/c each time I call to cancel b/c Im going to have to pay for it they offer more free month. ( uh oh another handout?)

And for your information I have applied al all the local business's for employment but when I cant give them a set time to work they say sorry! My husbands hours vary to much one day out at 4 the next at 8. a place wont hire you to come to work when you feel like it.

If you choose to live above your means. running up credit card bills and losing your home to it thats a whole different story. I dont have cerdit card debt, my bills are paid on time, I dont have debt period... I dont think children should be without healthcare no matter what the reason.
I dont get food stamps. and I will have more children b/c the only thing I cant afford for them is health ins. That is until Dh's kicks in at his place of employment.

Like you keep telling people.. they dont know you or your situation.. you dont know mine. You have no place to sit and judge other people for how they get healthcare for their children.....

When my husband lost his job b/c the company went under we didnt run to the FIA office and beg for help. We could have and probably could have gotten it with no income and all and not having been paid in 3 weeks but we didnt We both went out looking for work.

 

QUOTE(nikki_0724 @ Jan 27 2008, 03:24 PM) [snapback]591745[/snapback]
NO i dont own my own home. I paid cash for a manufactured home with a tax refund 2 years ago to get out of an apartment payment that was 600.00 a month to a rent payment that was under 400.00. I do have cable for the first time in 5 years!! only watched 1 channel for 5 years. and I have interenet b/c Im on a free trail from aol. b/c each time I call to cancel b/c Im going to have to pay for it they offer more free month. ( uh oh another handout?)

And for your information I have applied al all the local business's for employment but when I cant give them a set time to work they say sorry! My husbands hours vary to much one day out at 4 the next at 8. a place wont hire you to come to work when you feel like it.

If you choose to live above your means. running up credit card bills and losing your home to it thats a whole different story. I dont have cerdit card debt, my bills are paid on time, I dont have debt period... I dont think children should be without healthcare no matter what the reason.
I dont get food stamps. and I will have more children b/c the only thing I cant afford for them is health ins. That is until Dh's kicks in at his place of employment.

Like you keep telling people.. they dont know you or your situation.. you dont know mine. You have no place to sit and judge other people for how they get healthcare for their children.....

When my husband lost his job b/c the company went under we didnt run to the FIA office and beg for help. We could have and probably could have gotten it with no income and all and not having been paid in 3 weeks but we didnt We both went out looking for work.


Are kids without health care today? Seems like everyone who doesn't have it can get it from the government for their children. So why do you need universal healthcare again?

Some people might say that having children when you can't afford to take care of them is living above their means. Or the more common situation occurs when you are doing fine, and have a family, and then things go to sh*t. But it's funny, cause those people deserve help. But if something happened to me in my house where I wasn't working and we lost our insurance, I don't deserve it. Because I have debt. Which I incurred when I did have a job. Why the double standard?

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 08:59 AM) [snapback]591731[/snapback]
Tons of people choose not to work. What a weird question!

Being a SAHM is not a paid job. That's what I was talking about. And I do believe you get paid, in love and kisses and the ability to be home with your children all day. That is something a lot of people CAN NOT afford, and would definitely look at as a luxury.

People who are actively pursuing work or are laid off etc, were not included in this group.

You could always work at night.
Everyone deserves student loans, I don't know if that's what you meant by federal money.



Actually I can't work at night. My husband works one week of nights and one week of days. So this isnt an option for me.

I do not think Stay At Home Moms..choose NOT to work. So on that I disagree with you.

The luxury of me staying home with my babies is a MUST for my family...for my kids, for my husband and for me. Even if we were not military ..I would be staying home..and getting federal aide where I need too..because my kids are more important to me..then working right now.

Brandy

 

Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 09:38 AM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?



Thank you Joyful. I agree with you...


Brandy

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 27 2008, 03:30 PM) [snapback]591747[/snapback]
Are kids without health care today? Seems like everyone who doesn't have it can get it from the government for their children. So why do you need universal healthcare again?

Some people might say that having children when you can't afford to take care of them is living above their means. Or the more common situation occurs when you are doing fine, and have a family, and then things go to sh*t. But it's funny, cause those people deserve help. But if something happened to me in my house where I wasn't working and we lost our insurance, I don't deserve it. Because I have debt. Which I incurred when I did have a job. Why the double standard?


My children are on medicaid and I had it when I was pg b/c ins was not offered to us at his past job. I NEVER said I needed univeral healthcare.

I can afford to care for my children and never said I could ...not Said.... the only thing I could not afford was healthcare, in less then a month wont be a problem b/c we will have ins through DH place of employment.

And i never said you would not deserve help. I said If people live above their means running up credit cards on things they dont need that its a differnt story but I never said NO HELP

No double standard here. I think that if a person needs help then help should be given.... and here where I live it is. if you need help finding a job theres help for you. if you and your family need ins and qualify for help you get help. I think as long as help can be offered to people that actually need it they they should be offered help.

 

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 03:37 PM) [snapback]591751[/snapback]
Actually I can't work at night. My husband works one week of nights and one week of days. So this isnt an option for me.

I do not think Stay At Home Moms..choose NOT to work. So on that I disagree with you.

The luxury of me staying home with my babies is a MUST for my family...for my kids, for my husband and for me. Even if we were not military ..I would be staying home..and getting federal aide where I need too..because my kids are more important to me..then working right now.

Brandy


Right there with you!


QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 03:38 PM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?


Agree!!!

 

QUOTE(Joyful @ Jan 27 2008, 03:38 PM) [snapback]591752[/snapback]
Let's redefine work. Subtract the cost of day care, sitters, etc... and begin to include that money spent into a SAHM's salary. That's just the beginning. Those "working" get reprieve in the form of weekends, nights, and mornings. SAHM's never clock out, rarely take a bathroom break and get little compensation. The choice is not whether or not to work, but rather in what capacity. Let's instead feel sorry for those kids in day care, for the parents who have no choice but to leave their kids with someone else, to be raised outside the home. Honor those who have the courage to stay at home and raise their children. Can we now move on to things more important than money?


Actually, you don't need to feel sorry for my children in day care. A lot of women choose to work as well. I enjoy my job, I enjoy my adult time, I enjoy my career. In a perfect world I would be able to work part-time, but it's too hard to do that in the career field that I work in. Plus, I have the better health care coverage, so I work full time. I don't think my children are some how having having a lesser childhood because they attend day care.

And although a lot of people are obviously playing the semantics game, I think when most of us are referring to "working" we mean outside of the home and getting a paycheck.

I think that EVERYONE will agree that raising your children is a lot of work and a hard job.

 

QUOTE(a1cbrandy @ Jan 27 2008, 03:37 PM) [snapback]591751[/snapback]
Actually I can't work at night. My husband works one week of nights and one week of days. So this isnt an option for me.

I do not think Stay At Home Moms..choose NOT to work. So on that I disagree with you.

The luxury of me staying home with my babies is a MUST for my family...for my kids, for my husband and for me. Even if we were not military ..I would be staying home..and getting federal aide where I need too..because my kids are more important to me..then working right now.

Brandy


I love the insinuation that my children are not important enough for me to stop working. I have to work, because I don't qualify for federal aide. And I also appreciate the person that choose to agree with that. Lovely bunch, aren't you?