For money from the government.....

QUOTE(PetiteFleur @ Jan 25 2008, 04:14 PM) [snapback]589883[/snapback]
I get what you're getting at here, but it's kind of a simplistic way of thinking. It's not like the poor are getting rich off of things like affordable health care and tax breaks. They're still going to be poor and struggle to get by. They're not going to suddenly be rolling in cash and living the lifestyle of more well off people.

So, you comparing working hard, paying higher taxes and helping out those less fortunate with just quitting your job and becoming one of those people who "benefit" from health care assistance just doesn't make sense. Maybe you were just using an extreme example to make your point....

There are many factors that contribute to poverty; lower educational level (not necessarily due to laziness), lack of opportunity (could be related to the environment someone was raised it, racial or other discrimination, or other factors not the "fault" of the individual but nonetheless, impact their access to education and resources); "bad luck" (poor health, teens unable to go to college b/c they have to care for a sick parent or help provide for the family, mental health issues, etc.) You get the point. I'm just trying to illustrate that people who are poor are not necessarily lazy, unmotivated, or entitled. Most would probably love to trade places with you, hard work and all, rather than be stuck in perpetual poverty. The vibe I'm getting from your posts is that anyone can escape poverty and needing to be "taken care of" if they just worked harder and had a little motivation. I really wish that were the case, but sadly, it is not.


Beautifully said. I certainly would not want to trade the position described (good job, 33% tax bracket, paying for good health care) for being in at an income level to qualify for Medicaid (which is the current requirement to get govt aid for health care). No way, no how. That income level seriously affects quality of life on many, many levels, and while it is a good thing to have health care, the reduction in every other area of life is not the kind of trade-off the vast majority of people would deliberately make.

I still do not object to using some of my tax money to help people who are in this position out. I would rather be in the position to contribute, through my taxes, to their health care than to be in the position to qualify for receiving it.

Or, to look at it another way: suppose instead of "health care" we substitute "clean water." Would better-educated people with better-paying jobs be "more deserving" of clean water than less-educated, less-well-paid people? Should they get to drink fully-filtered water because of their affluence, while less affluent people drink only partially-filtered water, because it's cheaper not to filter the water so much and why should they have cleaner water that some else's taxes paid for?

eta: typo

 

QUOTE
I went to college, got a good job, and work hard so that I can have good health benefits. Explain to me where the drive to succeed in life comes from if the government is going to pick up the slack for the people who don't do that. Really, I might as well quit my job and working part time somewhere and make less money so that i can keep the money I make, and the government can take care of me.


Well... la ti da. I am glad that worked for you but we don't all have those options.

The assisstance is there for those who need it... and guess what I get it... my children have health insurance covered by the state... so I guess I should be getting down on my hands and knees and groveling at your feet because you pay your 33% to help me out, right?

:bow2:

 

QUOTE(PetiteFleur @ Jan 25 2008, 11:44 AM) [snapback]589319[/snapback]
Ha! Cowards unite!

I think this is a really good point and I can think of many other areas where similar hypocrisy exists but I, too, am going to keep my nose clean on this one.


I'm right there with you too!!

 

QUOTE
I certainly would not want to trade the position described (good job, 33% tax bracket, paying for good health care) for being in at an income level to qualify for Medicaid (which is the current requirement to get govt aid for health care). No way, no how. That income level seriously affects quality of life on many, many levels, and while it is a good thing to have health care, the reduction in every other area of life is not the kind of trade-off the vast majority of people would deliberately make.


Things vary from state to state. My children all 3 recieve Medicaid. We are not deathly poor, we do not go without a thing. They all have new clothes, a lot of them designer clothes, we have food on the table, eat out a whole lot... do things many other people have with a higher income, but we do live paycheck to paycheck. We pay a mortgage and have all sorts of bills... all sorts. Thank goodness I live in a state that the means of living and supporting your family aren't outrageous!!

 

I guess the more important question is "Why do you need it? Why can't you get a job to take care of your own health insurance? And what are you actively doing to change your circumstances?"

Yeah, it's so LA TI DA of me to have gone to college and have a job. How HIGH AND MIGHTY of me!

 

QUOTE(KYsweetheart @ Jan 25 2008, 04:50 PM) [snapback]589953[/snapback]
Things vary from state to state. My children all 3 recieve Medicaid. We are not deathly poor, we do not go without a thing. They all have new clothes, a lot of them designer clothes, we have food on the table, eat out a whole lot... do things many other people have with a higher income, but we do live paycheck to paycheck. We pay a mortgage and have all sorts of bills... all sorts. Thank goodness I live in a state that the means of living and supporting your family aren't outrageous!!


True, fair enough. Here in TN the rolls are overfilled and they have *stringent* requirements. The only exception they'll make is women who are pg (through the 6-wk post-partum check-up). Children who were on can stay on, but if you make a tiny bit of extra money you'll find you have a monthly payment commensurate with employer insurance, if not more.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 03:07 PM) [snapback]589765[/snapback]
My dad worked 3 jobs so that my mom could be a SAHM. That's a sacrifice they chose to make so that she could stay home with us. I guess that is where my work ethic comes from.

And what if not one of your dad's jobs had offered medical insurance? And what if somebody in your family had a "medical issue"? I don't think it has anything to do with work ethics. It has a lot to do with doctors needing malpractice insurance due to sue happy folks and overcharging for medical visits and insurances needing to have high coverage costs to even it all out. It's a nasty cycle. But, work ethics has nothing to do with it. If you are referring to people on welfare who are just milking the system, yes there are a few people who do that. However, that it not the majority of people who would be helped out.

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 03:55 PM) [snapback]589846[/snapback]
My point was as someone stated, if it should be the job of the rich to pay for the poor, why would choose to be among the rich? I might as well just choose to be poor, and reap the benefits.

QUOTE(PetiteFleur @ Jan 25 2008, 04:14 PM) [snapback]589883[/snapback]
I get what you're getting at here, but it's kind of a simplistic way of thinking. It's not like the poor are getting rich off of things like affordable health care and tax breaks. They're still going to be poor and struggle to get by. They're not going to suddenly be rolling in cash and living the lifestyle of more well off people.

So, you comparing working hard, paying higher taxes and helping out those less fortunate with just quitting your job and becoming one of those people who "benefit" from health care assistance just doesn't make sense. Maybe you were just using an extreme example to make your point....

There are many factors that contribute to poverty; lower educational level (not necessarily due to laziness), lack of opportunity (could be related to the environment someone was raised it, racial or other discrimination, or other factors not the "fault" of the individual but nonetheless, impact their access to education and resources); "bad luck" (poor health, teens unable to go to college b/c they have to care for a sick parent or help provide for the family, mental health issues, etc.) You get the point. I'm just trying to illustrate that people who are poor are not necessarily lazy, unmotivated, or entitled. Most would probably love to trade places with you, hard work and all, rather than be stuck in perpetual poverty. The vibe I'm getting from your posts is that anyone can escape poverty and needing to be "taken care of" if they just worked harder and had a little motivation. I really wish that were the case, but sadly, it is not.

Just what I was going to say, but you said it so nicely!

 

So wait, your kids wear designer clothes, but the government pays for your health insurance??? Wow, how LA TI DA that you wear designer clothes. I can't say that. I guess I'm too busy paying taxes so that you can.

 

QUOTE(nana2C&C @ Jan 25 2008, 10:50 PM) [snapback]589951[/snapback]
I'm right there with you too!!


Ha! I guess I can't stay out of a good debate after all. And I had such good intentions.....

 

QUOTE
Yeah, it's so LA TI DA of me to have gone to college and have a job. How HIGH AND MIGHTY of me!


Couldn't have said it better myself.

QUOTE
I guess the more important question is "Why do you need it? Why can't you get a job to take care of your own health insurance? And what are you actively doing to change your circumstances?"


I don't have Health insurance on myself... I sacrifice that for my kids to have it. I can't get a good paying job around here in the sticks where I live. I would have to drive 2-3 hours one way to a decent paying job. That would take more in gas than it is worth. As well as daycare... with daycare and gas both it would defeat my whole purpose of working, but why of course did I have to explain that to you. I didn't... but since you asked.....

 

QUOTE
So wait, your kids wear designer clothes, but the government pays for your health insurance??? Wow, how LA TI DA that you wear designer clothes. I can't say that. I guess I'm too busy paying taxes so that you can.


Yep they sure do, thank you *that someone on here* who sent them to me.

Nope, I don't wear designer clothes... my store of choice is walmart.

 

oh... and to answer your WHY am I recieving it...

Because our income is low enough to recieve it. Believe me I go through ALL the procedures every 3 months. I go in and they go through our income, and our bank account, and all the steps it takes.

I am done with the conversation... you don't and won't understand. I am just glad to see you think little of those beneath you. I'm in a mood and you struck a nerve, sorry if I took it the wrong way.

 

QUOTE(HRE @ Jan 25 2008, 10:54 PM) [snapback]589959[/snapback]
And what if not one of your dad's jobs had offered medical insurance? And what if somebody in your family had a "medical issue"? I don't think it has anything to do with work ethics. It has a lot to do with doctors needing malpractice insurance due to sue happy folks and overcharging for medical visits and insurances needing to have high coverage costs to even it all out. It's a nasty cycle. But, work ethics has nothing to do with it. If you are referring to people on welfare who are just milking the system, yes there are a few people who do that. However, that it not the majority of people who would be helped out.


That's exactly what happened. So my mom stopped being a SAHM and went back to work, so that she could have the insurance. Because they believe that someone had to carry the insurance for the family.

Listen, I get that it's not a cut and dry issue. There are obviously situations where government funded health care is good and necessary. But I thought we were taking about universal health care! It's a completely different issue than having policies in place that help people who fall onto tough times, or lose their jobs, or whatever and need health care. And it seems like from what others have said, that there already are policies in place where your children can be covered if you don't have healthcare.

I do feel like if you want something enough, you can work hard and pull yourself out of any horrible situation. Maybe that's idealistic of ME! But there are many stories of people who came from NOTHING to turn their lives around. Now obviously, before someone lashes out, this doesn't pertain to people with disabilities or any other physical reason that they can't work. I guess it's just my personal mentality. Before I would count of goverment to take care of my family, I would do EVERYTHING IN MY POWER to take care of them myself. Then, and only then, would I ask for help if I needed it. And yes, I think it's good that there is help there in those situations. But it's a valid worry of mine that if you can get healthcare for free by not working, what would push you to start working again? Cause if you don't work, you don't pay taxes. And where do you think the money that is paying for universal healthcare is coming from? our taxes.

I think this is where I sign out of this conversation. I obviously have some strong opinions as do many others. And I fear it's already gotten more out of hand than I would like.

 

Do you own your own house? Do you deduct the mortgage payments? That is a government subsidy (just like Medicare). Did you take out government subsidized loans to pay for your college education? Oops, another "handout". Do you have an IRA? Yep, another government sponsored subsidy. It is hypocritical to take advantage of these programs and want to take similar programs away from those less fortunate than yourself.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 01:49 PM) [snapback]589835[/snapback]
Neither of you live in the US right?

Your idealistic principles are wonderful in theory, but I guess I just don't agree with it. And I don't have the faith that it will work.

Maybe being a good person can mean a lot of different things. I think the person you are describing sounds like a very good person indeed. The person I was describing is a person who works hard, and is really trying to better themselves, by whatever means that can. Be in getting an education, getting their GED, getting off welfare. Basically working hard to become a giving member of society, not a taking member.

I'm happy you pay your 20%. I pay 33%. So I find it hard for you to say that I'm not giving back a lot to my country. In fact, more than you are giving to yours. So to insinuate I'm not a good person for not wanting to help, it actually looks like I am helping more.


No, I don't live in the US right now. I am, however, still an American with many, many family members & friends living there & the possibility that I will live there again some day. So, I feel like I still have a right to my opinions about the state of the healthcare system. I don't think our health care system here in Canada is perfect but I think there are parts of it that could benefit the US. I don't think you can deny that the healthcare system there is in need of some help. I don't have all the answers, I just know what works here.

As for you giving back to your country, I'm sure you do. We all pay taxes, I'm not going to get into "who pays more," that's pointless, all I said was that I didn't mind my tax money being spent to provide healthcare coverage for those less fortunate than me.

 

Kind of confused here.. SAHM's work hard, but are still "soaking up resources" because I don't have a job. Read my "Health care costs vent" in the Corn. We HAVE insurance, and still have to pay out a great deal in copays and such.
I think it's a little sad when one has to have a Master's degree and both parents have to work just to be deserving of healthcare.

I don't see people in Canada or Western Europe just laying about doing nothing because they have universal healthcare. (???)

Anyhoo... I get what the OP was trying to say, why is everyone all "Yay, free money" about the rebates, but some of the same people are anti-universal healthcare, when both are handouts essentially.

 

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 25 2008, 11:11 PM) [snapback]589981[/snapback]
Do you own your own house? Do you deduct the mortgage payments? That is a government subsidy (just like Medicare). Did you take out government subsidized loans to pay for your college education? Oops, another "handout". Do you have an IRA? Yep, another government sponsored subsidy. It is hypocritical to take advantage of these programs and want to take similar programs away from those less fortunate than yourself.


Ok, had to respond. These are programs available to EVERYONE. Everyone can deduct mortgage payments, or get student loans or start an IRA. It's not a fair comparison. These are not programs that you qualify for depending on income.

But there are programs for people to go to college who come from low income families where they don't have to pay at all. And that IS NOT available to everyone. See the difference?

And if the PP was referring to me, I never said SAHM soak up resources. If you weren't, then I apologize for thinking you were.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 05:40 PM) [snapback]590002[/snapback]
Ok, had to respond. These are programs available to EVERYONE. Everyone can deduct mortgage payments, or get student loans or start an IRA. It's not a fair comparison. These are not programs that you qualify for depending on income.

But there are programs for people to go to college who come from low income families where they don't have to pay at all. And that IS NOT available to everyone. See the difference?

And if the PP was referring to me, I never said SAHM soak up resources. If you weren't, then I apologize for thinking you were.


Everyone who makes enough money to qualify for a mortgage, that is. If you don't, you cannot deduct your rent payment, necessary though it is to have living quarters. So, not actually available to everyone.

If your parents make "too much" money you cannot get a subsidized loan, even if your parents are not able to pay for your education. Ask me how I know. So, again, not available to to everyone. (Not that anyone asked, but I paid for my entire college education myself and did not borrow any money or get any from my parents.)

And, yes, techically anyone can start an IRA, but probably only people who have income sufficiently above their basic needs can actually do this. I'm sure that most people would first choose to pay for health care, and this might not leave enough to start an IRA.

I guess where I differ is in not having resentment toward people who are able to take advantage of programs I cannot. I can take advantage of other things (like mortgage deductions) instead.

 

Like Tina,
No I don't live in the US, but YES It is still my country and all of my family except children and the family I married into live there, so I also think I still have right to have an opinion. My US tax return is a line of zeros every year because I make WAY less than foriegn exception (which is like 80,000).
By the way not everyone can start an IRA, I tried several years ago, but since I have no US tax liablity, I was unable to open an IRA and had to go with a riskier investment...

 

I haven't read all the replies, and I am not making this statement towards any one person. But all of this reminds me of a situation at DH's work. DH and this co-worker(Jon) of his are the same age. Both have the same level of education, but have total different incomes. DH's makes approx 65k a year and his Jon makes probably 25-30k a year. DH is always listening to Jon complain about how unfair it is that "we" have a trailer, and atv's, and own a home, and can afford to go camping often. He, is always telling DH how unfair life is that DH makes a good living and has nice things. None of our vehicles, trailer, etc, are brand new, but its all nice enough. I am fortunate enough to stay home with my kids,( I do work part time). Jon is always putting DH down because he has so much more. The other day DH finally had it. He told him, "we were both given the same opportunities, I just chose to work harder and better myself" Jon is always calling in sick for work, spending his money on beer and stuff they don't really need, but it is always DHs fault that Jon's life is the way it is.

I personally have a problem supporting Jon and his family because of the poor decisions he has made. I have a problem supporting those who do nothing to help themselves. I have a girlfriend who choses not to work because it is just easier to take the handouts for her and her kids, but she is perfdectly capable of working. I think it is wonderful for people to be SAHM's, but only when they have the means to supprt their family and lifestyle. If it meant that by me staying home, we would be receiving assistance, I would not have done it. It is not someone else's responsiblity to go to work and put their children in daycare so that I can be with mine. I guess I just feel better taking care of my own. I do not have an issue with helping those who truely need the help, the ones who have tried or are trying to better themselves. I think that all children should have healthcare.

I truely hope I have not offended anyone.

ETA: I get what the OP is saying. I guess if I had to go one way or the other, I am considered anti-universal healthcare, but I am also not "Whoo-hooo free money" But I am also not going to send it back to the govt.

 

QUOTE
I do feel like if you want something enough, you can work hard and pull yourself out of any horrible situation. Maybe that's idealistic of ME! But there are many stories of people who came from NOTHING to turn their lives around. Now obviously, before someone lashes out, this doesn't pertain to people with disabilities or any other physical reason that they can't work. I guess it's just my personal mentality. Before I would count of goverment to take care of my family, I would do EVERYTHING IN MY POWER to take care of them myself. Then, and only then, would I ask for help if I needed it. And yes, I think it's good that there is help there in those situations. But it's a valid worry of mine that if you can get healthcare for free by not working, what would push you to start working again? Cause if you don't work, you don't pay taxes. And where do you think the money that is paying for universal healthcare is coming from? our taxes.


Ok I can take it anymore....Can some of those ol lazy-good-for-nothing Canadians please tell me what you do all day just b/c you can go see a DR for free? I know that is that only reason I get up in the morning....... to pay for healthcare. Wait, we need to ask the Germans, the Brits, the French, the Swedish, ..........Wow, how are these countries NOT in ruins?????? With all the free the free DR visits? Who would want to work?

Society doesnt work without layers (like an onion ) There has to be a lower, middle and upper class. Everyone cant be rich. It just doesnt work that way. So there needs to be a way to take care of ALL those people. And BTW, whoever said the clean water analogy LOVE that! I am going to have to use that.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Jan 25 2008, 11:40 PM) [snapback]590002[/snapback]
Ok, had to respond. These are programs available to EVERYONE. Everyone can deduct mortgage payments, or get student loans or start an IRA. It's not a fair comparison. These are not programs that you qualify for depending on income.

But there are programs for people to go to college who come from low income families where they don't have to pay at all. And that IS NOT available to everyone. See the difference?

And if the PP was referring to me, I never said SAHM soak up resources. If you weren't, then I apologize for thinking you were.


I would only point out the same things Ruby already has. But, based on your response I obviously misunderstood your position. I thought you were against all government handout-type programs. But you are simply against government handout programs for poor people. As long as you have yours, the rest be damned. Nice.

Your attitude is not unusual, unfortunately. I was lamenting this to my husband the other day. Things are tighter for people these days, and maybe there isn't as much to spare, but if there were no public libraries or public spaces there is no way that they'd get created now. "Why should my taxes go to purchasing books for other people to use!? They should just get a job and buy their own!" To me, libraries are a way to offer education to all, access to a better life for all. They don't "take away" from me or my share, they add to it by making this a better place to live. Healthcare (welfare, whatever) is the same to me. I don't want to live in a country where more than half of the population is unhealthy and suffering. That would take away from my quality of life. So, even if I had to pay for it, it would be worth it to me.

 

QUOTE(three_precious_girls @ Jan 25 2008, 11:03 AM) [snapback]589218[/snapback]
This has been bothering me since I saw the thread because it reminded me of the posts many made that universal healthcare meant having a "socialist government".
Lots of people here were against the government providing healthcare for all because it implied socialism and basically believed that insurance should stay privatized.
However, many of those same people are totally excited that the government could be sending them a monetary handout.
Isnt this hypocritical? How can you be against the lower middle class getting health assistance, but for monetary assistance? Depending on the government to give you money because you qualify in a certain bracket is basically depending on those in America that make over 75k individually or 150k as a couple to pay into the government and give it to you. And, this is on top of their taxes as well.
I myself am for universal healthcare, and I am all for assisting those that need help. I dont however see how you can be against one and for another simply because it "helps you out".
I would love to be enlightened to both sides especially someone's view opposite than mine because I am truly not looking for a fight I am just utterly confused...



Here is my OP

I think my thread has been hijacked.....

 

I would rather my taxes go to some sort of a healthcare program than to half the crap it is going to now. I think there should at least be a universal healthcare bill for all children out there period. No child should go without medical insurance as should elderly people!!!!


On a side note.... There are many companies such as Starbucks & banks that now offer insurance benefits to part time employees working as little as 19 hours per week. I would like to hear the actual statistics of people that actually "abuse" the system out there but I know there are not any. I have heard some whoppers from this person I work with. (buying food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar, unemployed people saying they are self employed but staying below the poverty line so they can file their taxes and get $$$ back)

 

I also wanted to add that I have no problem at all paying my $300+ a month out of my paycheck to have my entire family covered through my companies insurance plan. I would rahter pay this premium to make sure that I did not have to wait in crazy lines and know that if I had a medical problem I did not have to go through some government red tape to see a doctor.

I honestly have not read that much about it.

 

I think my main reservation with Universal Healthcare is I don't want our government running the show. :laughing:

There are so many programs and departments within the gov't that already don't work well, that I don't think they've shown that they can competently run another one.

I think Universal Healthcare is wonderful in theory, but will/would be very difficult to implement. From everything I've seen and learned from talking about some of our friends in Canada, you still end up with two different levels of healthcare.

And PPs have mentioned that they've had great experience with their gov't run healthcare and for that I'm glad. One thing I'd like to mention is that I believe she mentioned elective things are the only things with waiting lists.

Who decides what's elective? Technically, a gallbladder removal surgery is elective. The person who needs their gallbladder out may not think so, but it's not life or death so you can wait several months right? Or that tumor is fairly slow growing, you don't need to get in right away, we'll get it before it get too big, we'll get it out soon. Having had a family member with a benign brain tumor that wasn't immediately life threatening, it was still nice that she was able to have her surgery within a couple of weeks and not have to wait months.

But in my brain, I'd love to have some kind of coverage for all children. Not sure what I think the best way to do that would be, but since a child truly cannot decide for themselves whether they should go out and get a different job or go to college, etc...

Anyway, just my 2 cents, for what they're worth,

 

QUOTE(KYsweetheart @ Jan 25 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]589953[/snapback]
Things vary from state to state. My children all 3 recieve Medicaid. We are not deathly poor, we do not go without a thing. They all have new clothes, a lot of them designer clothes, we have food on the table, eat out a whole lot... do things many other people have with a higher income, but we do live paycheck to paycheck. We pay a mortgage and have all sorts of bills... all sorts. Thank goodness I live in a state that the means of living and supporting your family aren't outrageous!!



QUOTE(KYsweetheart @ Jan 25 2008, 05:59 PM) [snapback]589972[/snapback]
Yep they sure do, thank you *that someone on here* who sent them to me.

Nope, I don't wear designer clothes... my store of choice is walmart.


I didn't read all the comments, so sorry if this is a repeat. I think the statement that your kids where NEW clothes confused some people. It sure did me. I assumed that you were going out and spending big bucks on designer clothes, not that they were a gift. That makes a big difference in my mind. It irritates me when I see people spending a ton of money on things they could easily do without (ie designer clothes, the latest electronics...) and then use food stamp or some other form of government aid.

 

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 25 2008, 08:38 PM) [snapback]590195[/snapback]
I would only point out the same things Ruby already has. But, based on your response I obviously misunderstood your position. I thought you were against all government handout-type programs. But you are simply against government handout programs for poor people. As long as you have yours, the rest be damned. Nice.

Your attitude is not unusual, unfortunately. I was lamenting this to my husband the other day. Things are tighter for people these days, and maybe there isn't as much to spare, but if there were no public libraries or public spaces there is no way that they'd get created now. "Why should my taxes go to purchasing books for other people to use!? They should just get a job and buy their own!" To me, libraries are a way to offer education to all, access to a better life for all. They don't "take away" from me or my share, they add to it by making this a better place to live. Healthcare (welfare, whatever) is the same to me. I don't want to live in a country where more than half of the population is unhealthy and suffering. That would take away from my quality of life. So, even if I had to pay for it, it would be worth it to me.



Very well said ( and with just the right amount of rage..) Ellen!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

QUOTE(OneBoyOneGirl @ Jan 25 2008, 08:33 PM) [snapback]590189[/snapback]
Ok I can take it anymore....Can some of those ol lazy-good-for-nothing Canadians please tell me what you do all day just b/c you can go see a DR for free? I know that is that only reason I get up in the morning....... to pay for healthcare. Wait, we need to ask the Germans, the Brits, the French, the Swedish, ..........Wow, how are these countries NOT in ruins?????? With all the free the free DR visits? Who would want to work?

Society doesnt work without layers (like an onion ) There has to be a lower, middle and upper class. Everyone cant be rich. It just doesnt work that way. So there needs to be a way to take care of ALL those people. And BTW, whoever said the clean water analogy LOVE that! I am going to have to use that.



I love this post!!!!!! :clapping:

 

Government healthcare = lots of red tape to get what you need done! Trust me.

 

QUOTE(Ellen Barr @ Jan 25 2008, 07:38 PM) [snapback]590195[/snapback]
Things are tighter for people these days, and maybe there isn't as much to spare, but if there were no public libraries or public spaces there is no way that they'd get created now. "Why should my taxes go to purchasing books for other people to use!? They should just get a job and buy their own!" To me, libraries are a way to offer education to all, access to a better life for all. They don't "take away" from me or my share, they add to it by making this a better place to live. Healthcare (welfare, whatever) is the same to me. I don't want to live in a country where more than half of the population is unhealthy and suffering. That would take away from my quality of life. So, even if I had to pay for it, it would be worth it to me.


:bow2:

I donate money to my library every week!

This is exactly how I feel. It diminishes me to begrudge others a little help when they need it. I would rather have a full heart and a happy community than a smaller tax bill and more personal belongings.

 

QUOTE(~Laura M~ @ Jan 26 2008, 02:52 AM) [snapback]590319[/snapback]
Government healthcare = lots of red tape to get what you need done! Trust me.



I could not agree with you more. I have no idea how people that are scamming get it I just dont understand. But you do what you have to do in order to make sure you babies are healthy and can see a dr when they need to. Theres always a time frame when you start a new job that you dont have ins. and if your trying to better yourself and coming from a job that you didnt have ins. you cant get cobra... There's always more then meets the eye.....

I dont know everything about the govenrment healthcare ( medicaid ect) but i thought there was a program for people who made to much to qualify for medicaid where they had to pay a small fee ( $5.00) per month to get something called Healthy Kids?.. I think thats what its called here in Michigan, not sure about other states??

 

I am college educated and so is my husband. I worked in a "career" job in the workforce for 10 years before having the twins. I worked for almost 15 years total since I was a teenager. I still work part time from home since having the twins. My husbands company does have medical insurance...horrible, horrible medical insurance.

I thank god that for the first year after having the twins, while I was mainly a SAHM...we qualified for medical assistance for the twins (twins only since the were newborns and we had two..not my older daughter). Just in the amount that I would've racked up in their regular medical bills and immunizations, we may not have been able to pay our mortgage payments or utilities. If I wouldn't have had the chance for them to be getting help from "the system" our way of life would've changed.

I am not saying that it is up to anybody else to take care of me or my kids and to keep my way of life improved. But because I decided to be a SAHM for ahwile...that does not mean that I am stupid and uneducated and don't deserve a little help. I helped a lot of people for many years while I worked. My husband and I are still hard working citizens. In my opinion that is what this great country is supposed to be about. Most SAHM get such a raw deal..when in reality, they are working harder than most that go to work everyday. SAHM's are making a major contribution to society by raising society's future. I work hard everyday home with my children, volunteering at my older daughters school, being a big part of PTA..if I wasn't...those working parents kids would not have parties, field trips, extra school supplies...etc....

As a PP said..I would not want to live in a country where everyone constantly turns their backs on people less fortunate. I do agree that there are people out there that abuse the system...but the laws are getting harder and harder for that to happen. I see it in myself and my family. I really feel for the senior citizens that have a hard time getting by. I see it with my mom and mother-in-law. Both divorced woman who worked very hard for 30 years and cannot retire because they don't have health coverage and can't get any help...because although they make nothing pratically...they are always told they make too much.

I think the problem here is that everyone has tunnel vision and thinks that universal healthcare would help all these people that already "abuse they system"...but in realty, that is a very small amount of people when you take into account the entire population of this country. There are a lot of good families out there that are hard working, maybe unemployed or layed off, have their own businesses and still pay taxes, senior citizens that have worked hard their entire lives..families like mine that need a little help for just a year or so that would benefit from something like this.

Right now DH is trying to get a new job...that one that he has been interviewing for has a wonderful insurance program for the family...full benefits for all...but if he gets this job...it will be 90 days until it kicks in. We will have no insurance for 3 mos. Do you know how scary that is...?? How nice it would be to not have to worry about that.

I would never think of it as me paying to help someone else. Believe me..no matter how much you have or how much you make, you never know what the future holds and you may need to take advantage of a government program someday.

 

"Everyone who makes enough money to qualify for a mortgage, that is. If you don't, you cannot deduct your rent payment, necessary though it is to have living quarters. So, not actually available to everyone. "

Well you don't actually deduct your mortgage payment, you deduct the interest that you pay, and you don't pay interest on your rent payments. But there are many, many programs to help some low income families with little to no money down such as FHA. Your income would determine how much you qualify for. Now if someone can't qualify because of credit, well that's another story. So there are options for people that don't hold high income jobs or even middle class. So really it is available to anyone.


Now here is where I have to join in. I make a decent amount and my husband who works for the state also makes a decent income. We're not rich, and we certainly have our share of debt with a mortgage and car payments. Now this is where I should mention that I am a federal employee. I have excellent health care that I pay a decent amount for. Both of my kids are going in on Monday for tubes and my out of pocket expense for both surgeries is close to $1200. Now what if I couldn't afford that? Would my kids just have to go without? Now there are programs that low income families would qualify for in my state and their kids would not be denied health care because their mom couldn't pay the co-pay. Now, let me get to my point. If everyone carried their own private insurance...healthcare wouldn't be as much. I honestly believe that. I believe that I currently pay for people who don't have insurance, but I still have to come up with out of pocket expenses or my kids go without. How does that work?

I get what Caba is saying regarding working and receiving the same exact benefits as someone who doesn't work. I don't think she is referring to SAHM's or the like, but truth is there are MANY people out there that take advantage of the system. There are people out there that work under the table and don't report taxes or income and reap the benefits that the government has set up for people who really need this. It's very hard for the government to pinpoint all the people who really need it and those who are taking advantage. This is why I believe healthcare should be available to everyone, but not with the red tape of the government, like someone said. I want to be able to choose my providers and hospitals and go to the doctor when I feel the need.

 

"s a PP said..I would not want to live in a country where everyone constantly turns their backs on people less fortunate. I do agree that there are people out there that abuse the system...but the laws are getting harder and harder for that to happen. I see it in myself and my family. I really feel for the senior citizens that have a hard time getting by. I see it with my mom and mother-in-law. Both divorced woman who worked very hard for 30 years and cannot retire because they don't have health coverage and can't get any help...because although they make nothing pratically...they are always told they make too much. "

I have to reply to this...because my dad and I were just discussing this. Clinton took away private retirement healthcare in the 90's....this makes it almost impossible for anyone to have any healthcare benefits after they retire with the exception of medicare after a certain age.