Would you continue: CIO

Hi,

We have been letting the girls CIO only to fall asleep. I still feed them twice in the middle of the night and will continue as long as I feel they need it. The point of letting them CIO to fall asleep is that they need to be able to go to bed without hours worth of us jumping through hoops to get them to sleep. I have two older children, a husband and mental health to tend to and I need an hour or two in the evening to do that and these girls need more sleep.

So, we put them down after a routine at 6:30. Because I need to feed them as many times during the day as I do, this seems to be the earliest we can put them down and if I let them stay up much later - they are a mess. So, 6:30 it is...around 6:35 the screaming begins. We do paci re-insert/shoosh/pat at 10 min. 20 min. and then 30 min. Last night was night three. They screamed for 3 hours without really letting up. I was committed to trying for 5 nights and that's what DH really wants to do. However, I'm just uneasy. I didn't expect to be totally fine with listening to them but I expected them to at least lessen in time each night. Here are my questions:

Would you continue to let them CIO if they are not showing improvement after 3 nights? If it does eventually work I will continue but I need to know that it has worked after this many nights for someone else.

Should I wait until they have fallen asleep and woken back up to feed them again? For instance, we let them cry and at 3 hours it's the time I would normally feed them again (9:30-10:00) so I go feed them at that time and put them right back down, after which they usually fall asleep without much crying at all. So am I just re-enforcing the cry by going to them at 3 hours and feeding them? If I don't do that and they cry for longer - how long do I let them? How many hours is too many?

I didn't expect to need answers to these questions before I started this. I would really appreciate any info and advice you have.

Thanks!!

- A sleepy, desperate momma.

 

Geesh, 3 hrs of crying to fall asleep Do they go down for naps fairly easily? What is your bedtime routine like?
I would be hesitent to let a baby cry that long at that age. Not that I think they are hungry, or anything. But maybe they just aren't ready to be "taught" to fall asleep yet. I also think if its takes more than 3-5 days then they are not ready. But these are all my personal feelings and what I would do, not that I am saying it won't work or you are a bad mom for trying.

FWIW- I was blessed with babies that have always fallen asleep for bedtime and between feedings at night quite easily. (naps are another story, we did CIO for those at 4 months and it only took 2 days)

If you don't CIO, what would you normally do and how long does it take for them to fall asleep?

 

I know my twins are younger than yours, so really, you probably know a lot more about this. I just wanted to know if you are BF? And if you 'rock' your babes to sleep during the day?
I have (in the last 2 weeks) been putting my babies down (for naps, bedtime - everything) awake. DD is harder to convince but mainly I have been just re-inserting pacies. Havent had any HUGE screamfests, just a few here and there,and to answer your question, if you would normally feed them at 9.30 - 10 then regardless of whether they have slept or not - I personally would feed them at the normal time. Sometimes I 'dreamfeed' them if they havent taken enough during the day right before I go to bed, and they sleep til 6ish. It has gotten easier.
All babies are different, trust your instincts.
Good luck, I hope you get more sleep.

 

QUOTE(excitedk @ Jan 28 2008, 05:15 PM) [snapback]593885[/snapback]
Geesh, 3 hrs of crying to fall asleep Do they go down for naps fairly easily? What is your bedtime routine like?
I would be hesitent to let a baby cry that long at that age. Not that I think they are hungry, or anything. But maybe they just aren't ready to be "taught" to fall asleep yet. I also think if its takes more than 3-5 days then they are not ready. But these are all my personal feelings and what I would do, not that I am saying it won't work or you are a bad mom for trying.

FWIW- I was blessed with babies that have always fallen asleep for bedtime and between feedings at night quite easily. (naps are another story, we did CIO for those at 4 months and it only took 2 days)

If you don't CIO, what would you normally do and how long does it take for them to fall asleep?



Hi Kristi,

I'm feeling like a bad mom...trust me. Mostly, I just feel like a failure that I can't seem to get them on any kind of routine and I can't get them to fall asleep easily and I know how important sleep is. I read everything I could get my hands on during my pregnancy and had fully decided to go by HSHHC, exclusively breastfeed and pretty much feed on demand. As it turns out, I can't get them on any regular nap schedule. They are tired a lot and so I put them down at the sleepy signs and they end up taking a bunch of cat naps all day (30-45 min) every once in a while the afternoon nap or naps will be longer. I wish I knew what to do. To make matters worse, this is my job! I'm usually very good at my job but with these babies - I pretty much am at a loss. I stay at home and I tend to their every need! In fact, I don't tend to many of my needs because I don't have time. Still, they don't sleep and won't settle into a routine.

Yes, they go down for naps fairly easily. One is a little harder to get down but all in all it's not too much of a problem. Night time routine is PJ's, lotion massage, book and snuggle with dad while I breastfeed the other then vice-versa then swaddle, binkie, lot's of love and kisses and then down in the crib and we leave.

If we don't let them CIO we are in there for that 3 hours putting them to sleep somehow - either I take one to my bed and lay with her while DH walks the other or we walk both of them or we just re-insert the paci 2000 times until one time it works. Either way, it takes hours. They fall asleep for 20 minutes then wake and we do more tricks and then they fall asleep again for a few minutes...the cycle continues until 9:30. I just want them to be able to fall asleep.

I don't know what to do. I'm so sad about this.

 

QUOTE(belinda07 @ Jan 28 2008, 05:29 PM) [snapback]593911[/snapback]
I know my twins are younger than yours, so really, you probably know a lot more about this. I just wanted to know if you are BF? And if you 'rock' your babes to sleep during the day?
I have (in the last 2 weeks) been putting my babies down (for naps, bedtime - everything) awake. DD is harder to convince but mainly I have been just re-inserting pacies. Havent had any HUGE screamfests, just a few here and there,and to answer your question, if you would normally feed them at 9.30 - 10 then regardless of whether they have slept or not - I personally would feed them at the normal time. Sometimes I 'dreamfeed' them if they havent taken enough during the day right before I go to bed, and they sleep til 6ish. It has gotten easier.
All babies are different, trust your instincts.
Good luck, I hope you get more sleep.



Hi, yes they are exclusively breast fed....won't even take a bottle of pumped milk, but that's another story. They eat every 2 to 2.5 hours during the day. I do not think it's a hunger thing as they wouldn't eat more if I offered it at that time. I think they just don't like to go to bed in the evening but I'm not sure why.

 

QUOTE
I'm feeling like a bad mom...trust me. Mostly, I just feel like a failure that I can't seem to get them on any kind of routine and I can't get them to fall asleep easily and I know how important sleep is. I read everything I could get my hands on during my pregnancy and had fully decided to go by HSHHC, exclusively breastfeed and pretty much feed on demand. As it turns out, I can't get them on any regular nap schedule. They are tired a lot and so I put them down at the sleepy signs and they end up taking a bunch of cat naps all day (30-45 min) every once in a while the afternoon nap or naps will be longer. I wish I knew what to do. To make matters worse, this is my job! I'm usually very good at my job but with these babies - I pretty much am at a loss. I stay at home and I tend to their every need! In fact, I don't tend to many of my needs because I don't have time. Still, they don't sleep and won't settle into a routine.


I am so sorry you feel this way but want to add that I felt the same way. I read books and thought I got it until they were actually here. I tried to stay on a feeding schedule but if they cried I sometimes gave them a little more and then the whole day was screwed up.

For us, a routine began after they were sleeping through at close to 6 months but naps were not regular until close to 8 months I think. I just want you to know you are not alone. :love0028:

 

No suggestions, just :hug99: I understand.
I am having sleep issues too and feeling like a failure. This mommy thing is tough, tougher than any job I have ever done! You are so right!

Good luck!

 

My girls are 4 months and 1 week old and I just started to CIO method for naps - we're only on day 2 so sorry I don't have any suggestions for you. You are not alone

 

Your girls sound a LOT like mine, minus the CIO, although I did post a question about starting at 4 months to fall asleep! Mine get very tired around 6:30-7, BUT will only cat nap until between 9-10. I've never been sure what to do about a "bedtime" because they SEEM tired at 7ish and Weissbluth suggests an early bedtime, BUT they just don't seem to get into any kind of deep sleep until 9 or 10. If they take 3 hours to go to sleep with you assisting them and also with CIO, I wonder if maybe they should have a later bedtime, say around 9? I know you're goal is to have more evening time with family, but hopefully they will ease into an earler bedtime at some point. I think Weissblth does say that is a developmental thing with age?

This may not be any better for you, but this is how I "cope": Around 6:30/7:00, after baths and bedtime routine, we turn down all lights in the house and everyone uses quieter voices. I sit on the couch with my EZ pillow and let the girls nurse and nap until they are finally in a deep sleep (around 9.) It's basically a 2 hour cuddle time, BUT I still get to spend this time with my family (just resigned to the couch.) We spend this time together watching tv, reading, playing games, etc. I certainly do not want to do this forever, but it will work until they are ready for CIO. I personally think after 3 nights of 3 hours of crying I would wait until they were a little older. Of c
ourse that doesn't give ME much hope for starting CIO at four months :mellow:

Not sure if I was much help, but I can definitely offer :hug99: and sympathy. I know what it's like to not have your evenings anymore!

 

Hi!
I'm new to this whole twin-thing myself!!!! But, I was wondering...how often do the girls feed at night? I have twin boys about the age of your girls--and they feed 4 times during the day and are not fed at night. Could you try to feed them less often? Maybe they wake so often at night because they are just fed too often and it serves as a disruption...just a thought.

 

When mine were that age we did a feeding (this was the one bottle a day mine got) then they were swaddled and put into swings/bouncy in our bedroom. They then always woke at 9pm for another feeding, which I would count as the first nightwaking, so we did not talk to them, kept lights off, etc and then they went into the bassinet/crib. Have you tried a swing/bouncy? I personally think it doesn't matter how you get them to fall asleep the key is to do it while not having to hold them. That way you can atleast get a break. Mine never had issues from using the swing/bouncy. it only took a day or two for them to realize the crib is the new place to sleep was we stopped using swing/bouncy. But they had the skill of putting them selves to sleep because we never rocked/held/walked them around.
One thing that I did when dd was having a rough time falling asleep in the bassinet was to kind of shake/jiggle it to soothe her w/o me holding her.

Hang in there, it WILL get better. And do NOT feel like a bad mom. I used CIO for naps for pretty much the same reasons, it took just as long for me to get dd to go down for her as she would cry and fall asleep, and I felt like one way (cio) was teaching her to put herself to sleep and that it was nap time and the other way (me soothing her to sleep) was only driving me MAD.

 

:hug99: I'm so sorry you're having a hard time.

My instinct would be to jump ship at this point. They're still young and their self-soothing skills may not be up to speed yet. IMO, if it's taking 3 hrs of crying to fall asleep, and it's not getting any better, then they're probably not ready. I know it stinks for you, though. At least it's probably only a matter of a month or so until they'll be ready for it. (Yeah, I know, ONLY. )

This stuff can really mess with your head, can't it? I just realized the other day that there are so many times that I (unconsciously) conclude a thought/observation with "...I'm such a bad mom." Ivy babbled through her first nap - I'm such a bad mom. They didn't eat all their blueberries - I'm such a bad mom. They ate all their blueberries and I should have thawed more - I'm such a bad mom. I put them down 15 min too late and they had trouble falling asleep - I'm such a bad mom.

Don't fall into that trap - you are SUCH a great mom. You understand their need for sleep, and you're doing everything you can to help them get it. The rest is up to them, and just a matter of time. At that age the many catnaps are common - that should get better in a month or so as well. And soon they'll be better at self-soothing, and bedtime will be easier. Once those central nervous systems mature, you will have much better sleepers.

Good luck, & lots of sympathy coming your way...

 

Thanks ladies! I think my gut is telling me that this is not going to work. I am going to come up with plan B and use a lot of the tips suggested here. I appreciate you all taking the time to write.

Fuschia, it is interesting that we instantly jump to "I'm a bad mom" and in reality we are obsessing over how to make sure we do the very best things for our kids. I guess that in and of itself makes us good moms. So hard to keep your confidence sometimes.

 

Just wanted to say, I totally agree w/pp... it sounds like it's too early for them and your mommy inner voice is telling you so! Listen to that voice! (and it sounds like you are :good: )

Our babies didnt' take regular naps until they were 5 months old. DS started teething at 2-3 months and he was a colicky baby, so there were many many many nights that we had to stay up with him, walk him, hold him, soothe him, distract him, etc. DD not quite as much, but she's a high energy baby so there were times she got up and we had to console her.

I think in the first 4 months, it wasn't uncommon for us to start bedtime at 7 and not have them down to bed until 9 or 10. They're just high energy/needs babies. Now, it's not so bad, we start bedtime at 7 and they're asleep by 7:30 or 8 (they're 8 months old today).

Just a thought, but have you ever pumped your milk to make sure they're getting enough? Iknow another twin mommy who was bfing and the girls cried a lot. Much later when they weren't gaining much weight, she finally pumped and realized she was making 32oz a day, which is great for one baby, but 16 oz per baby is way to little. She ended up supplementing (and I know your babies don't like bottles) and they did much better. It wouldnt' hurt to find out. Our babies often eat a lot more in the evenings and they seem to sleep much better then.

Sorry for the ramble, but I just wanted to encourage you. I havent' had the heart to CIO with our babies, although I did for their naps. They're doing a lot better now. DD still wakes once a night for a bottle, but really, she's still pretty much asleep and she's a very high energy, high metabolism baby. She'll sleep through when she's ready. DS sleeps through probably 5out of 7 days.

It does get better!!! Really! You're at the hardest part of the whole process. I thought I was going to lose it at 4 months, and then slowly it got better by 5 months, and then 6 months was a lot better!

Btw, they got sick wiht a bad stomach bug right after 6 months and it screwed everything up, so I ended up putting them in their swings because they were awake half th enight. Once they were better, I ended up putting them in their swings for naps and they go down at 10am and 3pm within 5 minutes of putting them in the swings with nature sounds going loudly. I then pick them up and put them in their cribs and often take a nap myself. That was the best way to get my sanity back! Dh and I still each feed and hold the babies until they fall asleep for bedtime though.

Mostly I just want to send you hugs. If something doesn't feel right about parenting your babies, then stop. You can try it in another month or two. You will eventually have your time with your husband and family. Right now you have a 24/7 job and that;s ok. Just remember, it's not permanent.

*hugs*

 

kristi,

Just want you to know my heart goes out to you. I have a 14 mo. old and expecting twins within a few weeks. Anyway my son was terrible when it came to naps and I felt like I was losing my mind also. It seems like you try everything and nothing works. We had to switch to Nutramigen formula which improved things somewhat over time. I felt like all day I was trying to put him down for a nap and he would wake up within 15 min. and I would just cry. Hang in there and just know that things will get better.

Angie

 

QUOTE(Chessie @ Jan 28 2008, 10:40 PM) [snapback]594364[/snapback]
Just a thought, but have you ever pumped your milk to make sure they're getting enough? Iknow another twin mommy who was bfing and the girls cried a lot. Much later when they weren't gaining much weight, she finally pumped and realized she was making 32oz a day, which is great for one baby, but 16 oz per baby is way to little. She ended up supplementing (and I know your babies don't like bottles) and they did much better. It wouldnt' hurt to find out. Our babies often eat a lot more in the evenings and they seem to sleep much better then.


*hugs*


Hi, thanks for all of the thoughts and well wishes! I do think my supply is just fine. My girls eat every 2 to 2.5 hours and they don't accept more if I try. I'm not sure how I would pump all day and feed all day. If I needed to pump just to see how much I was making I would have to feed them bottles that day and they won't take them. I think if they were hungry and it was a supply issue they would take bottles because they were hungry. Plus, pumping is not a good indication of how your supply is doing as most babies can get more than a pump can. In fact, some women can't get anything from a pump but feed babies for a long time. Who knows??!! This is all very challenging! :huh:

 

QUOTE(fuchsiagroan @ Jan 29 2008, 12:31 AM) [snapback]594095[/snapback]
:hug99: I'm so sorry you're having a hard time.

My instinct would be to jump ship at this point. They're still young and their self-soothing skills may not be up to speed yet. IMO, if it's taking 3 hrs of crying to fall asleep, and it's not getting any better, then they're probably not ready. I know it stinks for you, though. At least it's probably only a matter of a month or so until they'll be ready for it. (Yeah, I know, ONLY. )

This stuff can really mess with your head, can't it? I just realized the other day that there are so many times that I (unconsciously) conclude a thought/observation with "...I'm such a bad mom." Ivy babbled through her first nap - I'm such a bad mom. They didn't eat all their blueberries - I'm such a bad mom. They ate all their blueberries and I should have thawed more - I'm such a bad mom. I put them down 15 min too late and they had trouble falling asleep - I'm such a bad mom.

Don't fall into that trap - you are SUCH a great mom. You understand their need for sleep, and you're doing everything you can to help them get it. The rest is up to them, and just a matter of time. At that age the many catnaps are common - that should get better in a month or so as well. And soon they'll be better at self-soothing, and bedtime will be easier. Once those central nervous systems mature, you will have much better sleepers.

Good luck, & lots of sympathy coming your way...



I agree with everything Holly said. I would try again in a month. I am a believer of CIO, but it sounds like it's just not the right timing for them. Hang in there mamma.

Reyna

 

I wouldn't go back in ... in our case, going back makes it worse. Mine were going down at 6.00 / 6.30 pm as well (my guess is they shouldn't be awake for more than 2-3 hours at this age, otherwise I would try 6 pm - my oldest went to bed at 6 pm between 4-24 months, sleeping til 7 am nonstop - ). If you go in, they get a reaction and all it does is giving them hope you may return again. My guess is that they'll give up more quickly (and not 3 hours) when you show them nothing is happening. I had that early bed time also because of my oldest (she was going down at 7 pm) so I didn't have much of a choice either. Mine caught on very quickly (3-4 weeks of age), especially my girl. Weissbluth told me at the first visit, the earlier you begin the easier it will be and the faster they'll get it. It was true. Without major crying they learned to self sooth themselves. At 4 months, I had them on a 9 am and 1 pm nap schedule. They did very well, even though they're not fantastic sleepers = early risers). I still think it's one of the greatest gifts in terms of sleep. I wouldn't stop, stick to it, but I wouldn't go back in. HTH!

 

No concrete advice, but just wanted to give you a little hope -- I've always had good sleepers, but around that age, both of mine went through a phase where they didn't want to settle at night. Once they were asleep, they went all night....but getting them asleep was a nightmare.

We tried to let them cry a couple nights, but I was uncomfortable doing it....and it didn't seem to work, anyway.

So, we did end up rocking DS to sleep for awhile. I was petrified that he'd start needing that every time -- I'm all about not starting bad habits -- but after a couple weeks, he started going down just fine.

DD is the least snuggly baby ever -- she can't really be rocked to sleep, as she's never once relaxed against us, or put her head down on either of our shoulders -- for her, distraction worked best. We put the Fisher Price soother (like the aquarium, if you've seen that) in her crib, and turned it on repeatedly for her to watch. Sometimes we put her mobile on, which has a dim light on it....

Couple thoughts for you -- do you think your girls are ready to lose the swaddle? Maybe they'll sleep better without it, at this point? They could be ready to roll to their tummies...

Do you do white noise? I swear by it -- we crank it up really high.

Good luck! I know you sooo don't want to hear, "it will get better" -- but it will.

 

Just wanted to chime in for any lurkers with bad sleepers who are bfing..........

MOST babies this age are fussy, its the facts of life, sorry!!! It is not your milk, it is not that you are not making enough.....its that they are babies. The only indication on a daily basis of whether your babies are getting enough is the wet diaper count, then growth on a more long term basis.
And you cannot tell how much milk a mom makes by pumping.

 

Here's some perspective from someone who is not in favor of CIO, but I understand that I cannot convince everyone to share my views, so I figure I'd like to at least offer some additional perspective. I've read all the sleep books, and even the hard-and-fast CIO advocates (Weissbluth, etc.) say 4 months is the very very earliest you can even consider CIO - and that some babies may not be ready this early. Weissbluth also points out that you should adjust for prematurity. You may not think of your 36-weekers as preemies, but they are still behind their full-term compatriots and you should consider them closer to 3 months than 4 months in terms of emotional readiness. I think that at any age, 3 hours is too long to let CIO continue. At that point, you are a mess, they are a mess, and there's nothing positive going to come out of that.

Will your babies fall asleep on the breast? If so, nurse them to sleep for as long as you can. Enjoy the fact that it works, that it's peaceful, and that you get to see their beautiful little faces as they drift off to dreamland. They will grow up and find other ways to fall asleep, I promise.

 

OMG your babies sound just like mine. We waited until they were 5 1/2 months to start trying to CIO ... and too, to get them to FALL asleep not STTN. Mine still cry about 30-45 mins right when we put them down some nights. Friday it will be 4 weeks of trying ... and they have gotten LIGHTYEARS better ... but still cry a good bit. I would maybe try one of three things ... either pick up/put down ... where you pick the baby up and rock a little ... put paci back in ... whatever, but lay down awake again ... that way you are calming the baby and letting the baby know you are there but you are still making her do the "work" of falling totally asleep, OR try total extinction (SO HARD ... I couldn't do it at first (we were patting/shushing every 10) but Meredith cried for 2 1/2 hours the first night and I went in a fed her ... AHHH breaking all the rules ... then the second night we decided OK we are really going to do this ... so she cried for almost 3 hours and for the last hour I didn't go in at all b/c I noticed it was just making it worse when I went in ... she eventually fell asleep and woke an hour later and I fed her and she went right back to sleep ... that is the last time she cried that long ...), OR wait a month and try again with graduated extinction like you are doing now.

CIO hasn't worked PERFECTLY for us as they still cry some. They were, however, waking at LEAST 6 or 7 times each at night and up to 10 times each ... and I was nursing like 6 times btwn the two of them ... my ped said I HAD to stop nursing so much at night ... to only nurse them once. So, now that we did CIO they are still a little hard to put down most nights but they don't wake at night nearly as much and they are easy to get back down ... where before we would try EVERYTHING except nursing and it would take an hour to get them back to sleep and then they would wake 30 mins. later ... all night long ... NOW, they wake maybe twice each (from about 6:30P-6:30 or 7A) and I feed them once and just have to pop a paci back in the other time ... eventually ... when they are ready to STTN ... we will probably have to CIO again so the one night nursing and the paci popping stops ...

One other thing that has helped ... that is contraindicated in all the books ... is to make sure they are really tired. For me, when mine take a late nap they are more likely to cry at night ... Yesterday they woke from their nap at around 3:15 for one girl and 3:30 for the other ... and normally they wouldn't make it to 7PM for bedtime and would have to take another catnap ... but I eliminated the catnap and put them to bed at 6:30 and they didn't cry last night. I think we are at the cusp of trasitioning from 3 naps to 2 ... maybe you are too?? Don't get me wrong ... they were FUSSY from 5:30 to 6:30 but we just did our best to keep them entertained ... b/c I, like you, wanted to nurse them one more time and they won't nurse if they aren't hungry ...

Anyway, good luck to you ... you are most definately not alone!

 

Just wanted to send a hug, and say that you ARE NOT A BAD MOMMY! You have to remember that you can't compare yourself to everyone else. Sometimes its hard to come on here and not compare what your twins are doing versus someone elses that are the same age. But every baby is SO DIFFERENT! Mine have been sleeping through since 3.5 months, but nap times are STILL so up in the air. We are finally get in some sort of routine, and they are 10 months. and I would say the hardest time was right around that 4-5 month time period.

And I think we have it a bit tougher with twins, because for your own sanity, you try to get them on the same schedule. I just smartened up and separated mine at nap time because they kept waking each other. My DD just does not need as much sleep as her brother. Screws up my schedule that she has to be so different , but then I have to remind myself that they are two different people, very different from each other and all the other babies here. so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not beat yourself up about it. You aren't doing anything wrong. If you feel like your babies are not ready for CIO, then wait on it. There is no harm in that. Just because it worked at 4 months for one mom does not mean it will work for you as well. Hang in there.