Which is best...

For those seasoned mothers with kids who STTN...can you offer me some advice and answer a question?

The basic premise for 12 hrs X 12wks is to elimate night feedings one by one AND increase the amount you give during the day.

My question for this book is: If my babies are eating about every two hours at night- Do I have to first get them to eat every 3 and then 4 hrs at night before I start to eliminate feedings? My babies are 9 lbs now, so I would like to start some time of sleep training.

For HSHHC, I know (not having read the whole thing) to watch for early sleepy signs and how important good naps are, etc. What is the overall premise for this book in regards to STTN- what is the author's theory for getting children to sleep thru the night?

 

I met a woman who used the 12 hour/12 weeks and loved it. While it appealed to me, my girls were not ready to go 4 hours between feedings and still aren't. It is very rigid, IMHO but if you are a structured person it might work great for you. I did read some criticisms of it that said it could lead to dehydration, and so on. Not sure!

 

If you are BF you should be very careful with 12X12. I love HSHHC. I did read 12X12 and got all excited until my common sense got the better of me.

 

QUOTE(mctwins @ Jan 29 2008, 04:48 PM) [snapback]595644[/snapback]
I met a woman who used the 12 hour/12 weeks and loved it. While it appealed to me, my girls were not ready to go 4 hours between feedings and still aren't. It is very rigid, IMHO but if you are a structured person it might work great for you. I did read some criticisms of it that said it could lead to dehydration, and so on. Not sure!


what is 12hrsX12wks?

 

You can only safely do the 12x12 if you are bottle feeding. Bf babies eat small amnts often, and still need to nurse at night for a long time.

If you are bottle feeding in theory you want to FILL them up during the day (atleast 25oz's) and then can "know" they don't "need" the night feedings. If they give a chunk of sleep of say 4hrs, then the next night you do not feed them before 4hrs. If they then sleep 5hrs you do not feed them until 5 hrs. And so on.

IMHO it is too early to try and fill them up during the day, most babies this age feed day and night. What I WOULD do is start good sleep habits, keep lights low, make the feedings all business, only change diaper if poopy, etc.

HTH, hang in there, they will sleep, you may just need to give them a little longer.

 

HSHHC worked well for us. I can't comment on the other book properly because I haven't read it, but I feel strongly that babies sleep through the night when they are biologically ready. It has more to do with maturing sleep rhythms, a good routine, etc. than food. HSHHC helped us put a great routine in place and my boys stopped eating at night at 12 and 12.5 weeks. I think there was a little luck involved too. I'm weary of books that suggest waiting a certain amount of time between feedings. My boys were/are frequent feeders - when other moms were talking about "4-hour schedules" we were feeding our boys every 2 - 2.5 hours during daylight hours. That's just the way they wanted it.

 

HSHHC is awesome. It's full of lots of great information, and written by a pediatrician who's done tons of sleep research - everything is backed up by studies.

12x12 on the other hand... Don't get me started! Personally, I find that book brutal, and it's all unfounded, written by someone with only an opinion and a desire to make a quick buck off tired parents. It essentially tells you to feed VERY young infants only 4x a day, because supposedly this will make them sleep at night. Not only is there absolutely NO connection between rigidly scheduled daytime feedings and night sleep, but it is at best cruel and at worst dangerous to refuse to allow babies to eat when they're hungry. Most adults eat or drink something more than 4x per day - why on earth would you subject the helpless creatures you've chosen to bring into the world to such a strict schedule? Sure, if you're bottle feeding you can maybe cram enough into them during the day (distending their stomachs in the process and teaching them to eat based on cues other than their own hunger/satiety = recipe for future obesity) that they won't end up hospitalized... But is it fun for them? An adult could get enough calories and fluid eating two 1000 cal meals 12 hrs apart, but would you choose this? And this pretty much is what you're doing to a baby on the 12x12 plan.

And if you're BFing, forget it. It's a recipe for disaster. BFing is supply and demand - if you limit the demand, your supply will take a nosedive, and the babies will almost certainly end up in the hospital with dehydration and failure to thrive (=starvation).

Worst of all, there is simply no connection between scheduled feedings and night sleep - unless it's that you're teaching the babies that nobody cares enough to meet their needs, so don't bother asking. Telling parents to restrict food in order to make babies sleep is like telling them to change diapers on a rigid schedule in order to make their hair grow faster.

The American Academy of Pediatrics explicitly tells parents to feed babies whenever they're hungry, not on schedules. Be very wary of any book that tells you otherwise.

Can't say enough good things about HSHHC, though. For the phase you're in now, it will help you recognize sleepy signs and get the babies down before they're overtired. It also gives a realistic idea of what infant sleep is like - the night feedings are normal now, but it will give you some idea how long they may sleep at what age. When they're a bit older, it has lots of good suggestions for sleep training.

 

QUOTE(fuchsiagroan @ Jan 29 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]595764[/snapback]
HSHHC is awesome. It's full of lots of great information, and written by a pediatrician who's done tons of sleep research - everything is backed up by studies.

12x12 on the other hand... Don't get me started! Personally, I find that book brutal, and it's all unfounded, written by someone with only an opinion and a desire to make a quick buck off tired parents. It essentially tells you to feed VERY young infants only 4x a day, because supposedly this will make them sleep at night. Not only is there absolutely NO connection between rigidly scheduled daytime feedings and night sleep, but it is at best cruel and at worst dangerous to refuse to allow babies to eat when they're hungry. Most adults eat or drink something more than 4x per day - why on earth would you subject the helpless creatures you've chosen to bring into the world to such a strict schedule? Sure, if you're bottle feeding you can maybe cram enough into them during the day (distending their stomachs in the process and teaching them to eat based on cues other than their own hunger/satiety = recipe for future obesity) that they won't end up hospitalized... But is it fun for them? An adult could get enough calories and fluid eating two 1000 cal meals 12 hrs apart, but would you choose this? And this pretty much is what you're doing to a baby on the 12x12 plan.

And if you're BFing, forget it. It's a recipe for disaster. BFing is supply and demand - if you limit the demand, your supply will take a nosedive, and the babies will almost certainly end up in the hospital with dehydration and failure to thrive (=starvation).

Worst of all, there is simply no connection between scheduled feedings and night sleep - unless it's that you're teaching the babies that nobody cares enough to meet their needs, so don't bother asking. Telling parents to restrict food in order to make babies sleep is like telling them to change diapers on a rigid schedule in order to make their hair grow faster.

The American Academy of Pediatrics explicitly tells parents to feed babies whenever they're hungry, not on schedules. Be very wary of any book that tells you otherwise.

Can't say enough good things about HSHHC, though. For the phase you're in now, it will help you recognize sleepy signs and get the babies down before they're overtired. It also gives a realistic idea of what infant sleep is like - the night feedings are normal now, but it will give you some idea how long they may sleep at what age. When they're a bit older, it has lots of good suggestions for sleep training.

I can't really tell how you feel about this... The woman I met who used 12/12 was a NICU nurse so she justified it by stating that she wouldn't do anything that wasn't just right for them. I was sold until I did some other reviews on the book and decided it wouldn't work for me. In my exhaustion and desire for sleep, I still realized it wasn't the best way to go.

I agree with the pp who said starting good sleep habits is the way to go and I agree. I started a routine bed time with my girls by the time they were 6 weeks old (lights low, bath, nursing, bed or swings ) and it paid off. My girls go to bed really well though there are still times that one or the other wakes and I just figure that it won't last forever so I should just enjoy it while it does!!

 

I used the 12 hour book and loved it! It worked really well for my two, but I didn't start with the scheduling, etc. until they were past 2 months old. I was BF and like pps said, I don't think the book is geared toward exclusive breast feeders. I gradually got my boys on the schedule concentrating on one feeding at a time. Since you've read the book, you understand that there is NO DENYING YOUR BABY FOOD!!! Once we got the daytime feedings worked out, we then concentrated on the night time feedings. THe boys were STTN at 4 months and have been ever since.

Just for anyone else who is interested - This book was written by a mother of 5 with a set of twins in conjunction with a doctor. The author does not recommend witholding food, etc., but rather gives you the tools and ideas to get your kids on a schedule that works with your family. THere are certain criteria that a baby must meet before even trying to use this book. The basic premise of the book is that by a certain weight and age, you baby is metabolically able to go without food and sleep through the night. If you read the book you would understand this.

The experience we had with our boys and the 12 hours book was great. They are healthy, thriving and extremely content and happy. I know it is because of their schedule and getting the right amount of sleep. Sorry if I hijacked the post - I'll get off my soapbox. If you need some more detailed info or help with the book, let me know.

 

I think 12x12 MIGHT work for some babies who happen to have the right temperament, but it doesn't give you enough information if you don't have that kind of baby...not to mention everything Fuschia said so eloquently.

HSHHC on the other hand, while it's much harder to get through, is a much saner, more intelligent book that will really help you understand how babies work. The author advocates CIO to encourage STTN, but he also is pretty clear that it's normal for babies to wake to eat at night until at least 9 months. (He has an odd little digression about why it is that breastfeeding mothers believe their babies need to eat at night, not entirely complementary to breastfeeding mothers, but he ends up saying that they may need to eat and that it's appropriate to feed them.)

He has a small section on twins at the end that's pretty helpful, too, as opposed to 12x12's little (very obvious) one liners about how you should try to put twins down to sleep at the same time.

 

The baby's brain development is in high gear in the first 6 mos... messing with their instinctual needs at this early of an age could have adverse affects on the neurons being created.

Most experts don't suggest any sleep training until 4 mos min, but if you read the science, you may want to wait until a baby has object permanence (knows you're there when you're not with him)

Challenge about brain dev science is that the ramifications don't show up until years later. For our family, we didn't want to limit our child's emotional stability because we needed more sleep. we just figured that at some stage they would start sleeping better and after I night weaned at 1 yr, they did.

You gotta do what works for your family, but don't expect that there is a magic pill -- babies at this age usually wake for a reason.

TD