Tantrums

The extreme behavior my son has been having when he's having a tantrum has led me to call a psychologist. She sounds great, but we can't get in until 10/5. But the more I'm reading about sensory processing disorder, as far as how other kids who have it are when they have tantrums. It sounds so much like my son. But when I read the checklists of the sensory symptoms, he doesn't fit very many. Is it possible to have the disorder when the senses that are supposed to trigger it aren't that obvious to me? Like he doesn't have issues with clothing irritating him or light or hard pressure affecting him, he seems fine with loud sounds or lots of visual stimulation, etc etc. But when he is in tantrum mode he is insane. There is no getting through to him, and it will take at least an hour for him to snap out of it. When he does he's back to his sweet little agreeable self, and he doesn't know what happened or why.

It got me thinking about how this has kind of been with him in some form since he was born. As a baby he would have these screaming fits. It seemed to stem from too much stimulation, too many people around. He'd be fine, then a switch would go off and he'd scream uncontrollably and there was nothing you can do other than hold him close. It would take a good 45 minutes plus, and then it would stop as quick as it started.

As he got a little older it was the extreme separation anxiety. I couldn't take two steps from him without losing it completely in a similar manner as described above. Luckily this phase was from about 8-11 mos old and didn't come back as a toddler.

But as a toddler, the tantrums started. The comments from people about how if you just ignore the tantrum, they'll stop was laughable to me. They've never seen what we were dealing with. It often would take tantrum after tantrum after tantrum - a good hour or two before he'd snap out of it. Then he was an angel and you could reason with him again. He has an amazing memory and doesn't forget anything, so it's not like distracting him would ever make him forget what he was originally mad about either.

Now that he's older the tantrums are scarier and harder to handle, as you may have read in my other posts. He gets to a point where he just won't stop repeating what he needs me to do for him - like he absolutely needs it to survive. I've recently read about how there is a difference between a tantrum and a meltdown. So I guess what he's really having are melt downs. But it is still insane the amount of time it takes him to snap out of it. and once he does he's so sweet and doesn't understand why he behaved that way.

I also started reading about asperger's. But he is very social as far as eye contact, asking tons of questions, talks to his teachers and makes friends. He is very smart though, and does seem to gravitate towards certain areas that seem like they'd be beyond his level of understanding. Like he loves science and planets, and pretty much learning about how anything works and why. I also struggled with him until very recently with being interested in playing with any of his toys. He always needed his sister to play, and they have amazing imaginations. But he never was interested in any of his toys. Only now will I see him play with his train table or pull out the legos by himself.

I know I'm rambling, and now I have to go get the kids from preschool but does this sound like anything??

 

Denise, I have to run to get my girls off the bus, but I *highly* recommend reading Raising Your Spirited Child. Hugely changed the way I interact and think about things with my own girls.

 

I'm reading this right now & I agree, you'll find you aren't alone. :hug:

Also, my friend was just telling me today about the difference between meltdowns and tantrums. The author of the article she read for her daughter who is severely impacted by autism was written by a psychologist and the gist is that with tantrums you can reason with the child, whereas meltdowns are like an out of body experience. I will talk to her to try to get the name and link the article for you, or give you the name of the author so you can find it.

 

My daughter has meltdowns too. Often ends up with her screaming in her room for one hour, banging the door and whatnot... and yes, I ignore it (it is good advice, IMO. Any kind of interaction makes things worse here). And when we let her out she's usually still fixed on whatever reason made her meltdown in the first place (she wants to go to the park, she wants a dollhouse, anything really). I don't really think you can expect them to really understand why they do that at this age though - like when you say he doesn't understand why he behaved that way... at this age IMO it's just the same as asking them why they breathe. They just do it. They don't necessarily understand it.

I would be worried that he's not interested in toys though... but I'm sure the psychologist will be helpful.

Oh and it probably sounds dumb, but I'd make sure he really gets 12-13 hours of sleep at night.

 

I was a special ed teacher for years, and now I am a counselor for kids, so I know a bit about SPD and other such things.

SPD can take a lot of forms - some kids are sensitive to sounds, some to visual stimuli, etc. Is there any pattern to what sets off his tantrums? It might help to keep some notes for a few days - time of tantrum, what seemed to start it, how long it lasted, etc. You might be able to see some revealing patterns that way that will give you some clues.

From what you described about him, it doesn't sound like Asperger's right off, but I wouldn't totally rule it out, and someone who interacts with him would need to evaluate him.

I do wonder if some of it is frustration. Kids who are very smart sometimes have these kinds of behaviors because there is such a gap between their cognitive development and their emotional development, which can cause big frustration and lead to meltdowns.

You might want to ask your pedi if there is somewhere you can take him for an evaluation. One of our local universities here has a child development clinic and they do a very comprehensive evaluation and many insurance companies will pay for it, even Medicaid.

Hope this helps!

 

Yes, his tantrums are pretty much always over the same thing - being disciplined and refusing to go in time out. They are ordinary offenses which lead to the time out, not listening when being asked to clean up repeatedly, back talking, not listening in general. He immediately gets mad, says he doesnt' have to and turns on his stubborn mode full force. he refuses to go into time out, I give him a chance to walk himself over, he refuses, I carry him over, and kicking/screaming mode begins. I tell him I want him to stand in time out quietly and he says no and goes into screaming, pounding his feet mode and usually leaves time out. Basically he is contrary to anything that we say when trying to discipline him. He says he doesn't want to, he says no he's not going to, etc. And when we enforce/escalate the discipline to the next level(which we always do, we normally don't let things slide) it always leads to a raging tantrum. So when he can't cooperate in time out he usually ends up in his room. And that turns him into insane mode (screaming as loud as he can until he's hoarse, and kicking the door with both feet as hard as he can). And now he won't stay there (we have the lock on the outside of the door, but he still breaks out) so I have no way to keep him in one place to calm him down, as well as to get me away from him while he's instigating me. He gets out and follows me around the house insisting I apologize to him or he repeats that he's not going to do what I asked of him or that he's not going to calm down. I do my best to ignore him but he follows me and hangs on my shirt and repeats over and over "mom, mom, MOM, MOMMY, MOMMY!" like 40 times until i say WHAT?! and then he'll repeat again that he's not doing what I asked of him. He's mad and he wants to make me as angry as he is. Sometimes he is really pleading with me like he really needs me to say it - like it's life or death to him. Yesterday's tantrum finally ended when I said and did what he wanted me to - apologized to him and didn't follow through with making him do his time out. I made lunch, gave my daughter tons of attention. set her plate down and kissed her, and then i set my son's plate down and walked away. his bottom lip quivered and he asked why i kissed allison and not him? and then I just lost it and was fighting back the tears. I picked him up, told him I loved him very much but I did not approve of his behavior and then he let me hold him for the next 20 minutes while he snapped back into sweet little boy mode and went back to being the agreeable little boy that he usually is. This maybe happens once a week now, and it's more often than it was over the summer. So it may be adjusting to going back to school. But with him, it's always gone in cycles where the bad behavior lasts several months and then he snaps out of it and is really good without tantrums for several months. I just think the way that he has a tantrum (meltdown) is not normal behavior. And at the least I want advice on how I should be handling it. If he does have an underlying issue, then I know I need to back off on disciplining the behavior. If there isn't an issue, then I need to know how I can effectively discipline him. So right now I'm looking for guidance on how to hanlde it. I just wish I didnt have to wait a month for our appt with the therapist. But I do feel good that I made the step to get help.

I also liked your second comment I bolded. I could see how that could be very frustrating for a child. I do think that some of his interests are so abstract for a 4 year old, I don't see how he can genuinely be interested (pretty much anything science related), but he really is. He likes talking about/reading about/asking questions about these things. When he was 2, he was trying to sleep but got up like 20 minutes later and asked us "what is science?" like it was keeping him up thinking about it. But I bet it's hard to tell if it's something like this going on or not.

 

My daughter does exactly what you described. The only difference I guess is that she can't get out of her room, so she eventually mostly calms down.

 

I sent you a pm

 

Is she able to calm herself down on her own? I don't even know if he can or not. It's usually a long process of us intervening to see if he's ready to calm down, but it doesn't happen on it's own and takes several tries from us over a long long period of time. It used to be much worse as far as the amount he used to have in a day when he'd be going through one of these phases. Now, it's usually one bad one a day maybe once a week. But the severity of his anger and rage and backtalking is worse.

I don't think he's ever had a tantrum over not getting something he wanted though. It's always over not wanting to be disciplined for something.

He did like to play with his toys, but only if his sister or someone would play with him. and when they play together, for the most part it's not really with toys but just doing imaginative stuff (going on vacation, going to the pool, going to the shoestore) usually involving dolls and dress up stuff. But when I would do quiet time and make them separate, he'd just sit on his bed and stare in space rather than play with his trains or trios. And he couldn't wait to get back to playing with his sister. he would do good with books and puzzles and stuff. But he didn't like being alone too much. He's only starting to get better about that.

part of me thinks maybe he just wasn't as into toys because he's more into learning type stuff - like his favorite things are his binoculars to look at birds/outerspace type stuff (I know you can't really see the planets with them, but he likes to pretend he's like his dad who's very interested in space) he knows and can point out different constellations that i never heard of, he loves learning about nature and going to parks and the zoo - so it's more knowledge-based stuff rather than toy type stuff. although very recently he will stop in the boy toy aisle of a store and get all excited about some of the stuff, so maybe he is finally coming around in that capacity.

 

...I also wanted to mention he's very much a things have to be a certain way kind of kid. A rule follower - which should be a good thing mostly. But he can't deviate from things easily when he knows it should be a certain way. Which is why I think he never has issues in school or out in public. I send them outside by themselves a lot, and know that if something isn't right he'll come tell me. Like when they were at the neighbor's he came home holding a pixie stick and asked me if he could have it. I of course said NO, but I gave him a sticker on his chart for coming to ask me. (did he have a tantrum over it? no). Did my daughter come ask me? No! So you would think this would help him to behave all the time. But I think his stubbornness, and things having to be a certain way and then not being in control of it is what sets him off too.

 

She calms down some... but usually is still in tears when I get her out and anything can set her off again. She calms down eventually but it takes a long time. It happens once or twice a week here. In our case I think she just has a very strong temper and is very strong willed. She's speech delayed, which probably doesn't help. When she had therapy her therapists had a hard time because she didn't want to do what they asked... If we ask her to do anything she doesn't want to, she gets mad. Even if we use bribes. I agree with PP though, it's possible that he's just very smart and doesn't know how to express his emotions and it's the only way he knows of how to deal with it.

What helps a bit is letting her pick her clothes, make her feel useful (when she's in the mood to help), give her choices etc...

Keep us posted when you have that visit, I'm sure the psychologist will have a lot of tips to help.

 

My one DD is a lot like your son - sensitive, smart, rule follower, perceptive, excellent memory, never-ending tantrums since day one, etc. I actually had an appointment scheduled with a psychologist for extra-crazy meltdowns right at 48 months old, but then they subsided before I got in. I did do a phone consult with a child psychologist and she gave me some good suggestions. I learned very early on that I couldn't leave my DD alone in a tantrum, or they'd last forever (one to two hours). I hold her through them, even now. She did have a mild ear infection that the pedi said was fine on follow-up and then it was back, so the worst of hers were from ear pain that went on for weeks, I think. I'm wondering now if our earlier "bad" times were teething pain.

What has helped, outside of getting her ear cleared up, are these strategies - I quickly take her outside with her lovie and the outdoors seems to snap her out of her fit, I make a crazy joke and get her to laugh right when the tantrum is starting, I talk throughout the day how I don't want "Reginald Von Hoobiedoobie" to come out ( a mean little character in a book and we call the kid acting bad that funny name) and how now that she is 4 the rule is that you have to talk to mommy instead of have a screaming fit, giving her a cooling-off chair that is just hers, but not separated from us (she has such strong separation anxiety that sending her off by herself just exacerbates the meltdown).

The book Playful Parenting really helped me understand that "time ins" can work just as good as time outs, where you sit with the child and talk about what happened. For my DD, this works better than time outs. I also say what she's feeling, like, I know you're mad you have to pick up your blocks, but in our family we keep our things nice and neat and let me help you and let's race to see who can do it the fastest, go! I find that when I make what to me is extra effort to make things a race or funny, she responds beautifully.

The psychologist suggested really talking to her about why she had the fit and just listening. It was amazing what she said - she hated the fits and her body just wouldn't cooperate and she was sorry she was making me sad. It was really out of her control and she hated them. The psychologist suggested she come up with a code word to stop the fits that we could call out. My DD came up with "coconut". So the family rule is that when someone yells "coconut" at you, you MUST laugh and do a silly dance. We yell coconut at her a lot, and she does her laugh and dance and it works. They can also yell it at me and DH and we have to do the same We also keep "chill pills" in our belly buttons and we give them to each other when someone gets cranky or starts a fit. If she starts one, I can say "coconut" and then I go for her belly button to get a chill pill out and we laugh. For us, it's all about getting a laugh, and when we cool off we talk about it.

I know how upsetting this is, for the entire family, and I wish you the best of luck-

 

Time out was a definite no go at our house. We had to find other methods. I use time in. Some kids do not respond to time outs. One size doesn't fit all. I also always acknowledge their feelings which can help prevent complete meltdowns. I always get down on their level, eye to eye when I acknowledge how they are feeling.

I also love these books about feelings. I have "when I feel angry", "when I feel sad" and "when I miss you". The books give examples of why the you might feel the way you do or things that make you feel that way. Then it talks about how the feeling actually feels on the inside. Then the books go on to talk about what you can do to help yourself or ask for help. I LOVE the books. They really helped both of my boys better identify what they are feeling. Understand that they have options to deal with those feelings.

I also put in a lot of sensory play during the day. Playdough, finger paints (in the bathtub which they LOVE), sand, coloring. One I have not done yet is kneading bread dough. I also let the boys play in the sink with water. A lot of child therapy uses hands on sensory play. I friend of mine's mom is a foster parent and she has a safe corner with sensory items. Including bubble wrap to pop bubbles and old phone books that they child can rip up. Plus a lot of other items. My boys dad is working out of state so we have a lot of emotional days. When one of them is having a very tough time I have them tell me what they are feeling while I write it down. I then read it back to them. For whatever reason this really really helps them sort out some of their feelings. Afterwards they are much happier.

I hope you get a lot of good advice at your appointment. I've thought about making that call a few times.

 

I'm definitely going to try to avoid time outs now. Especially in his room when things escalate, because I do see how he cannot calm down once isolated. It is hard though, because since he only pulls this behavior out when he's getting disciplined for something he's not doing or supposed to be doing, I struggle with what to do instead so he doesn't get away with getting to do whatever he wants. As long as he's the one in control and in charge he's happy. My husband thinks we should just use the sticker chart that we do regularly. But to take stickers away when he misbehaves or doesn't listen instead of having him go in time out. I feel like that's too cruel, but I guess for him it's probably less cruel than time out. We haven't had any issues since this post for me to try it out yet.

I do like the using humor idea too. Sometimes we try that, and it helps. It is very very hard though when he is just being bad. But I'm going to try to have a couple outlandish things stored up to try to use on him when things have the potential of heading down a bad path, but before we get there. Like I said, as long as we don't put him in time out I think he'll be fine. But what do we do instead?

 

The Playful Parenting book calls it a "meeting on the couch", so you take him there and talk to him about what you want, keeping it light instead of the time out. These time-ins require you, so it's more effort. I finish each one saying I know you'll be great at doing/not doing whatever and I forgive you and I'll help. My DD is bossy and I make sure I enforce each DD getting a turn and fair share. Since my DD loves rules, I tell her those are the household rules and we all must follow them. That is working for picking up, carrying plate in from table, etc.

Another effective strategy now also is putting their favorite toy or lovey in time out instead of them. My DD HATES her bunny to go in time out and 30 seconds gets it done.

I also tell her when she gets mad about something that it is okay to be mad, but she can't upset everyone else so she needs to go in her room or the playroom and yell, etc. if she wants to stay in the room with us, she has to find her happy voice. Since she doesn't want to be separated, she'll usually stop. I also show her what to do when she's mad to blow off steam.

I read the Ames and Ilg developmental book and they said it was fine to compromise and change your mind with this age and to not be too rigid or have battles, so I let things go and "help" do the things I want a lot and bust out laughing when I'm ticked off, and give myself timeouts, which they think is funny, etc. When they do something right I cheerlead big time.

I also use books that talk about feelings and we act them out. I tell my sensitive DD that she is exactly like I was as a kid and I also did whatever it is that she just did and that makes her feel better, and we talk about how to deal with that situation next time.

The tv show Ni Hao Kai Lan deals with feelings and what to do when you get really mad and we use examples from that show a lot.

The Playful Parenting book said it was key for kids to roughhouse and wrestle with parents as that releases that pent up energy and feelings and to also laugh hard, but not to tickle them. The laughter will let the feelings out, but in a much more pleasant way than tantrums.

 

You could try the sticker idea. My kids were going on and on about wanting treats one day so I gave them 5 pennies and told them they needed 1 to buy a treat after supper but if they got a time out and/or spanking I was going to take 1.....surprisingly they each had 3

 

My boys are 4 1/2 and one has SPD.

YES! And that is what is so frustrating about the disorder. My DS does some pretty strange things at times. But over time we've learned to look at the bigger picture and try to figure out what happened that day.

Does his teacher or aides have any issues with him?

My DS was diagnosed around the age of 2 and had OT through EI. They both qualified for preschool on their 3rd birthday. While doing their eval, they felt my DS with spd did not show any signs so OT was not offered to him. FF to a year later, the teacher and aides began to see A LOT of issues with him during the school day. He was evaluated again and it was determined he has many sensory issues in the classroom and he now receives OT during school.

I can recommend a few books on the subject if you like.

 

Sure, I'll take any recommendations, thanks!

I haven't heard anything from his teachers. I brought it up at the fall parent teacher conference last year because he was going through a bad spell at home, and she seemed surprised to hear about it. So I'm hoping they still aren't any issues. But I will definitely ask before our appt, in case there are any quirks they've noticed.

 

Not sure if you've seen this website during your online search, but it was very helpful to me.

The two books I've read on SPD are:

The Out-of-Sync Child: Recognizing and Coping with Sensory Processing Disorder

Raising a Sensory Smart Child: The Definitive Handbook for Helping Your Child with Sensory Integration Issues

The second book I liked more because it had real life families.

Both are available on Amazon.

Another thing you will find is that many Dr's do not believe that SPD can stand alone. If a child has sensory issues, it's part of another condition such as ASD or PDD-NOS. But there are also Dr's who do believe a child can only have SPD; it really depends on who you go to.

I hope you can find some answers.

 

I'm a psychologist. You definitely did the right thing by calling for help. Hopefully this person will help you figure out exactly what you are dealing with, and once you know, then you can treat it. She might tell you they are crazy bad tantrums, that it is SPD, or that it is aspergers - - but whatever the answer is will lead to different treatments. Keep your appointment and good luck!! Laura

 

I'm PMing you also.

 

So I'd hate to jinx it, because it may have just been a fluke, but yesterday I saw much improvement. It started when we were getting out of the car and my son dropped his book and it fell on the floor in the garage. This happened after I unbuckled him, and then I walked to the other side to do the same for my daughter. They normally get out by themselves and close the door (but they're so slow, so I don't stand there and wait!). As I was almost to my daughter's side I heard and saw the book fall. My son called for me to get it and I said well you can get it when you get out of the car. Then instantly (I could tell by his mood) he turned stubborn and in his mind mommy HAD to get it. And this is what I mean about walking on eggshells...do I go and do what he says because it's what he wants and it will avoid a tantrum? But then I worry where it will end, and how he'll always be the one in charge and when he figures that out, things could really escalate - it's not solving the problem. So I stuck my ground because I'm stubborn to. I didn't make a big deal out of it, didn't get mad, just said when he gets out he can get it (still being lazy and slow and now refusing to get out of the car). I went in the house which set him off because now I was even further from doing what he wanted. He got out, followed me in the house, leaving the book there and pleading for me to go pick it up. I told him I will help him with things he really needs help with, but when there are things he can do all by himself he needs to act like a big boy and do it himself (we've been working on this a lot lately, because I feel like I'm becoming the kids' servant!) His behavior continued, I warned him about taking a sticker off his chart (we had already told him about this earlier) and he didn't let up. I finally went through and removed one, and was cursing my husband for his idea immediately as the jumping and pleading and bad behavior spiraled down hill faster. Now not only was it "pick up the book!", it was "put the sticker back on" too! I calmly told him that the sticker will be put back on when he earns it. And they will be taken off when he misbehaves. It is not my choice, but his. Of course this doesn't phase him. I ignored it and let him follow me around. I was thinking now what? put him in his room, that will set us back right where we started - take another sticker off? Finally I went to my computer and sat down. He followed me repeating over and over the same stuff in his monotone pleading voice, jumping up and down in front of me. I decided to pull him on my lap to see if contact would help calm him. It didn't, but he didn't resist. Just kept up the same scenario, just without the jumping. I did a google search for scary dinosaurs and pulled up the images, to see if that would interest him. It didn't have much affect. Then I did a youtube search on the letter people (for some reason they've always loved watching these video clips). So I put one on and called my daugher over to come watch. He seemed to get more frustrated because he was getting less attention. And it didn't seem to be helping. But then, all the sudden he just stopped as if nothing had happened and started pointing out Mr. M in the background of the video. And showing him to his sister. They went back and forth taking turns picking video clips. After a few turns each, I (nervously, because I didn't want to unleash it again) told my son I was very proud of him for calming down and that I would put a sticker back on his chart if he went out in the garage and picked up the book, and I would go with him to help him if he needed help opening the car door. I sensed some resistance and I held my breath. But then he did it. I went with him, he was still being stubborn about me being the one to do it and he'd go with me, but then we started talking about something else and he did it all by himself. So I gave him a sticker for doing what I asked, and for calming down on his own this time. It was maybe a 15-20 minute ordeal vs 1-2 hrs. And it never escalted to the horrible levels that it usually does. He wasn't screaming or out of control. Just jumping and repeating over and over. So I really think the scary level only happens when we isolate him. It was easier to ignore this type of behavior than when it is escalated a couple levels. I could tell when he would get a little scared almost? because I wasn't answering him when he was following me, so when he'd be like "mommy, mommy, mommy? MOMMY, can you hear me??" in kind of a panic mode, i'd answer and say "yes, i can hear you", but wouldn't let myself be baited into an argument. I was really trying to see it as him needing my help, rather than him just being bad. So when he really seemed scared or panicked I'd intervene. Otherwise I ignored it. And it makes me totally see why what I was doing before would make him panic and behave even worse out of fear (I really think in his mind, he thinks he's going to be in his room FOREVER). So I have no idea if this will work next time, or if I'm going to have to keep coming up with creative stuff to surprise him and catch him off guard. But I feel so relieved that trying somethng different made him so much more manageable. I hope this information (what works and what doesn't) will be helpful for the therapist too.

 

Hi Denise,

This sounds great, I hope he keeps improving with you using a different approach. I have been reading your thread as a learning experience.

Good luck with him,

Monica

 

Hey, I don't know if you've seen this article about melt-downs or not.

 

No I haven't seen it. Thanks. Makes me feel like a bad mom though! I'm second guessing everything I'm doing, so I'm really glad I'm going to have some help to guide me through this. Becuase this excerpt is so true for me, and I struggle with this a lot:

"Won't I teach him that he can get whatever he wants? " they often ask. But the opposite is true. When a child feels held and understood, with time he learns to manage these difficult moments on his own. "

I'll keep you guys posted when I meet with the therapist next month...

 

I didn't read the article, but wanted to chime in on what you quoted. As someone in the child therapy field, don't let that bug you too much. There are HUGE differences in opinions in child psychology about using time outs or what most people call "time in".

Attachment-focused therapists say time outs are a big no-no and kids should be held and connected with instead.

Other views say time outs are the thing to do and giving in WILL teach kids to misbehave to get what they want, and that kids learn to self-regulate by modeling on their parents and when given the space to learn to do so. And after the time-out is over you make sure to reconnect with the child and talk about what happened on some level.

A lot of it depends on how you parent overall, and finding what works for your child - think of it as being in-line with the CIO vs no-cry sleep methods, if that makes sense.

To clarify, I'm NOT trying to start a debate here on which was is the "best"....I would just hate for you to be feeling really awful and guilty about this for the next month until you see the therapist. Before you go being too hard on yourself, see what the therapist has to say and go from there (easier said than done, I know! I tend to be very hard on myself, so I totally get that piece of it!!)

 

I agree with what eagleswings said about not beating yourself up feeling guilty. the hardest thing about parenting is there are no clear cut rules. what works for one child may not work for the next. good for you for recognizing the problem and searching for the solution and for being brave enough and capable enough to try different solutions. :Clap:

personally, i have learned a lot reading this thread. i had never heard about 'time in'.. the more options we have, the better we are at finding which one is the best match for our children.

your son is lucky to have a mom who is working so hard to improve his world!!

 

I have a background in psychology, have 6 kids ranging from 22 yrs old to 2 yr old twins.

Reading your posts made me register for this site, I can feel your frustration level and your worry for your son. First remember that all the normal behavior is an average from kids, some of whom may be high on one thing, another kid low on that same behavior and a normal range is established.

Boys are much more physical, much louder, normally, than girls with demanding what they want and they will get physical if they are very frustrated. That is the point to take a breath and think about how you are going to deal with it, then deal with it fairly.

No one likes a negative consequence, a protest is somewhat expected and normal until they learn that you are not going to give in. If your philosophy is to ignore but then you get fed up and answer, you have just rewarded him by answering him and he has now learned that if he is persistent enough then he will get what he wants so in some ways you have created that behavior unmeaningly. Kids are smart, they will exploit any weakness they see . If you put him in time out, I would not then spank him or escalate the punishment, that doesn't seem fair. He is being punished for his behavior in punishment. It would be like if you did a poor job at work one day and they said we are cutting your pay in half. Of course you would protest, at the least say that wasn't fair. Then your work says now we are not even going to pay you, just give some benefits that is all you are getting now. How would you feel about your workplace?

Each child will respond best to different methods, you have to figure out what works for him and is effective. My oldest child had major meltdowns, he also reads something once and it is memorized, he is wickedly smart and when he was younger he knew what he wanted and if anything frustrated him, huge meltdown. He'd line things up just so, he has an organized mind and still likes things in its place, it really isn't a bad trait at all but a good one.

I found if I watched him, engaged him in play I could help him avoid having a meltdown because you can see it coming, you can see the frustration level rise so if you are engaged, you can distract, make a joke, point out how to fix whatever so he stays in control of his behavior. Make sure he is getting enough sleep. Make sure there is outside play everyday, it really helps clear their minds and gets rid of an excess energy. When I make dinner which is usually a hard time of the day, I will engage the kids with what we should do tomorrow and it becomes a fun time instead of a dreaded time.

For the dropped book- I would have said in a very exaggerated voice- "oh my, have your arms disappeared?" Then I would have looked under the car quick, don't see them, Have your hands disappeared? You probably would have gotten a giggle and a no my arms are here. Then I would have said, uh oh, they must not be working, do they work? If yes, then I would have asked him to pick something up to show me. And he probably would have picked up the book. If not, I wouldn't have created ww3 over a dropped book. 4 yr olds are closer to toddlers than teens, they do not have all the skills for handling and controling their behavior. Sometimes when a 3 or 4 or 5 yr old want you to do something for them it is more an affirmation for them that you still want to help them out, love them.

You have to pick your battles. You can't get into a who is more stubborn or do it my way all the time. I would have stalled him until I got his sister out of the car but it is a dropped book, not worth the meltdown that happened. I prefer timeouts on the couch so I can keep track of the kid, I put them there, if they are in meltdown state, I hold them lightly or one of mine who becomes more frustrated when I held him so his meltdown were on the floor with me in the room but not in his space. Once they are calm I explain again why they are there. At 4, I would be trying to engage in a conversation as to how to avoid that behavior next time, what could they do differently. I do want an apology for the behavior before they are released from TO. I am very clear with my rules, expectations and the consequence. If I see a child becoming frustrated I will acknowledge that I can see they are becoming mad or frustrated, I ask them if they should shake it off and then we'll stand up and shake away the frustration.

Sorry this is so long, I tried to cover both your recent threads with this one post. Remember you should be praising/rewarding (can just be words or can be tangible like stickers and so many earn him something) him many more times than you are punishing. If you are consistent with telling him he is smart, picked something up well, etc he is likely to repeat that behavior. Lastly, you can do this, believe in yourself and enjoy your kids. The time flies by and you don't want to look back at this time and regret things, and wish you had done this or that or played with the kids more. Have fun with them and appreciate them.

 

Thanks for joining! What a wonderful 1st post. We hope that you post more.

 

A couple things I wanted to mention, was I hope it's not coming across that my son is evil and I'm the crazy mom. This behavior is maybe 5% of the time, and I am at my wits end and probably am a crazy person over it for 5% of the time. But otherwise he is a really great, smart kid, great listener, usually striving to do the right thing. And I am really proud of him most of the time. And I think most of the time I'm a pretty good mom. But I generally don't post the good stuff, only the problems. So I can see it can come across this way. I quit my demanding/analytical-type corporate job to be a SAHM when my twins were born. And it's been so hard for me because I don't think I'm the "natural" mothering type. I'm a very hard worker/things have to be a certain way (the RIGHT way) kind of person which made me great at my job and has made this really hard for me. And I think my son takes after this part of my personality (except the tantrums, I swear I never did those!). I'm am and was also a very sensitive and intuitive person. I remember everything, I swear, from when I was 2 and up. I think I do this by remembering how I felt at the time, and I managed to put those feelings to memory. This has led to some issues for me as well, which is why I am in therapy for my crazy irrational fear of vomiting. (It's getting to be that time of year where I have trouble sleeping, and I wake in a panic every single morning until I see my kids are healthy - so it's not just about not liking something, it's a horrible fear i've had since childhood). Anyway I bring this up because I've learned in therapy that it's my personality - things needing to be a certain way, having to be in control at all times, and then the sensitive/worry side coming together that created this (along with an alcoholic father who was very controlling himself - I learned that was the "right" thing to do to please everyone). ANYWAY, long story short, is because of all of this I think I go way beyond worrying about my kids feelings. I praise them for every little detail they do in a day, I watch their reactions so I can make them feel better when I can sense they're a little down about something. If one is getting praise over something, I make sure I find something great about the other one to bring them up too. I think I go overboard, but I can't help it, I just remember how sensitive I felt about certain situations and I want them to not feel that way. I've also made every attempt to do as much as I can with them during the day from when they were babies on up. We starting coloring and craft projects around 14 mos. We go outside, go to parks, I've looked up different learning ideas on line to do with them over the years. I treated being home with them as my new "career" since I gave up my old one.

I don't feel like anyone is attacking me here, I just felt maybe I should point some of this out too, since I know none of the good is coming across!

Normally I never give in, until with this past situation I posted about. I was so fed up I figured fine, I'll just do what he wants me to do until I can talk to the therapist to see what I really should be doing since what I have been doing is obviously not right. But it's been a battle of wills since before age 2, and I always felt like giving in would teach him that the tantrum worked. So I always tried to find a way to let him win without really giving in. And it was tricky, because he's so smart and stubborn. But I can say with 100% certainty that he doesn't have a tantrum because he knows he'll get what he wants by doing it - it's just because he's angry and he can't control his emotions.

I do agree with the spanking on top of the time out as being harsh. I saw it as the time out was for the original consequence, moving him to his room was for throwing a huge fit that nobody wanted to listen to, and the spanking was for being destructive in his room for banging on the door so hard and loud that the house would shake. It doesn't happen very often because he knows you're not supposed to hit, and it confuses him when I do so it just makes a bigger mess out of the situation. I think my husband's done it once and I've done it a handful of times. And it always ends badly with us feeling guilty, especially when he's screaming at us to apologize.

this is definitely my son!

I do well with these situations because I can see it before it's coming. But the normal day to day frustration stuff when playing/trying to figure out how somethng works is easier to deal with and watch for the levels of frustration rising. I have learned how to keep these from escalating. And he doesn't end up in time out for these behaviors because he can still be reasoned with. It's when he goes into time out that this escalation happens and is out of control. So either I allow him to act like a manaiac who doesn't listen while he's in time out, or I just don't put him in time out. And that's where I worry about him learning that he can get away with stuff now, when he couldn't before. I definitely want to do more reading about time-ins.

I know in theory humor is good and can work, particularly in situations where he is frustrated (not the time out stuff). So I probably should have done a better job at attempting it here. But he is more stubborn then the usual kid here. I do know him well enough that he will give you a grumpy scowl and won't attempt to play along when he's in this mood. I was actually pretty proud over my control to not let it bother me and not show any anger at all towards him over it. The only thing I could have done differently was just pick it up. I know it sounds silly, but I don't like the sound of a child demanding something to an adult, and then giving in to it. I don't feel that behavior is acceptable, and I don't want him to learn that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Maybe next time I should work with him on asking me nicely instead. Again, I'd probably get the grumpy scowl and refusal to play along. But this is a work in progress, so maybe over time we will get there if I'm very consistent. But I suppose it is a good sign that he does know this and does do what I ask of him when he's in a normal mood, so I know he knows right from wrong. And maybe that's a reason that I can cut him some slack and give in more often when he's having a hard time.

I will say that I removed another sticker yesterday for bad behavior (not a tantrum, just for refusing to change his clothes when we got home from school) I expected this to turn into a tantrum, but it didn't. Then this morning, he came down with his sister dressed, teeth brushed and bed made without me asking and they yelled "surprise!" When I got all excited and gave them a sticker my daughter said "see? you were right, she did give us a sticker!" and my son was like "I wanted to earn the sticker back that got taken away yesterday". So I hope this is something new I can work with that will be much more positive for us.

 

No, you did not come across an an evil Mom, just one who is being overwhelmed at points. If you question, try different things to improve the experience you have with your child, like you did by posting, then I would say you are a great Mom.

Each of our 6 kids, I have had to tweak my parenting style for them specifically. One, humor may work all the time, another needs set rules, set consequences and no giving in on my part, ever. Like the stickers. Your experience yesterday was wonderful and today he worked to earn that sticker back. He took a leadership role to make it happen, that is awesome!

My oldest had very similiar behavior and it can be overwhelming. You wonder what you are doing wrong, if you are failing your child, all normal reactions but it is so hard when you are going through it and your day is never ending it seems.

If he has good behavior 95% of the time then I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Just tweak what you are doing or use some new strategies, like the stickers, so even when his behavior isn't perfect, it isn't a meltdown that lasts for hours and is hard on everyone else in your home also.

His meltdowns will go away as he matures and learns how to control the frustration or anger at not being in control. It will get easier as time goes on. I hope you have a really great day with them today!

 

Totally agree! Great advice!

 

At what age did your oldest's behavior become much more manageable? It's reassuring to hear that others have come through this without any lingering behavior issues or underlying problems that caused the behavior in the first place. If we get through this, I'm sure I'll look back on it as it not being as hard as I remember it was while going through it. Kind of like the newborn twin phase that seems impossible when you're in the midst of it, and as the years pass you remember more of the good and the bad doesn't seem so bad. I hope to some day be in that place!

 

I would say the meltdowns stopped by around 6 yrs old. But, he never had a meltdown in school. I would ask his teacher and she'd say, that isn't your son at all, he never does that. He also was a very energized child and I think for some kids, it takes so much control to be following rules all day at school that when they get home, the littlest thing is just too much to handle and keep that control. I found all of us going for a walk or to the playground after school worked wonders, he and his siter, 1 yr younger, could run around and just have fun and be kids. I made it a point to run around or swing with them and have fun. It is fun being a kid and sometimes as adults we forget and get caught up in the little, not important stuff.

It pushed our dinner time up a little doing that but it made for a much easier evening. The meltdowns just decreased and then stopped. He would still get mad but it was a controlled mad. I used to tell him it was ok to be mad but he had to be bossing the mad, not the mad bossing him. I told him he could shake the mad off, or he could jump up and down and tell the mad to go away. I gave him an alternative to help him release that frustration.

It will get better, your son will mature, be able to handle the frustration and the meltdowns will decrease.