oVeRtIrEd and losing her mind!

i have pm several of you that have followed HSHHC since early on. we are going on 4 months and i think i am about to start letting dd CIO for naps. i appreciate the feedback and experiences you have shared with me. but i still have a few questions...

dd completely refuses to nap. she will sleep between 7-9 hour stretches at night, wake up to nurse briefly and then sleep for 2-3 more hours. we never cio for night time because she crashes during our last feeding at 7 pm. i am so thankful she sleeps well at night. however, day time sleep is non-existant. you can imagine the screaming that goes on by 5 pm. i am a teacher and they are cared for by a former teacher in her home. dd had to be taken outside today while all the other babies slept because she wakes them up with her screaming! i really think she would have been kicked out of an actual day care by now for being disruptive. the sitter said her eyes could hardly stay open but she would scream when being put down.

ds can be put down awake with a pacifier and puts himself to sleep easily for naps. ds just SCREAMS for up to 30 minutes. when she does fall asleep eventually, usually in my arms, she wakes up screaming the second i put her down. she is EXHAUSTED and miserable....this making everyone else miserable too! when she does nap, it is for no more than 30 minutes...maybe twice a day if we are lucky.

i am taking maternity leave in another 3 weeks and plan to work with her on sleep/ naps. when you let them cry for an hour is it a consecutive hour? ex. if she stops crying after 15 minutes do you start the clock over...even if she starts back up after 10 minutes of calm? what if she crys for 45 minutes and then she only sleeps for 20 minutes....do you leave her until the recommended 45 minute nap time is up or do you just try again at the next nap? when you do CIO for naps do you only do it one time a day (the morning nap since it develops first) or do you practice at 9 & 1. (when does the 1pm nap really develop) finally, i know they need to learn to sleep through one another's cries/ screams .... but ds would miss out on great naps if i didn't separate them at times. is it fair to disrupt his sleep for the sake of training her? or do i wait a few days after starting CIO before putting them in the same room for naps?

sorry for the millions of questions...i am really so discouraged by her protesting...she is soooooooo tired and grouchy. and i am sooooo frustrated hearing her scream all of the time. any advice, experiences or answers would be so helpful.

thank you thank you thank you!

 

I'm sorry I don't have any naptime advice to give... I was actually writing to aska question... is what "HSHHC"? I have seen it before in posts and was wondering.
Hopefully someone with some good naptime insight will respond. Good luck!
Helen

 

Oh, Andrea, what a struggle! I feel so bad for you and I can just picture your sad, little baby crying because she's SOOO tired but unable to sleep. I follow HSHHC although I don't really do the CIO aspect. I have a few ideas.

Are your babies 4 months old adjusted or actually 4 months old? Were they born before their due date?

At 4 months I was putting my babies down for a nap after about 90 minutes of wakefulness - actually they usually only went an hour between their morning wake up and their first nap, but the rest of the day was about 90 minutes (2 hours on occasion). For us this meant four 45-minute naps a day. It wasn't until they were older (like 6 months+) that their naps started to get a little longer (and it's still hit or miss) and they could stay up longer between naps. My boys were not easy nappers. I really had to set the scene. I couldn't just put them in their cribs. I had to move them to their room to look at their mobiles for a while, then turn down the lights to dim, then eventually turn off the mobiles, close the shade, swaddle them up, put in their pacis and do some bum patting. I envy moms who can just plonk their babies down and get a good nap out of them! It's a little easier now, but I still have to do some winding down before a nap.

When I put the babies to bed over or under tired it's a mess but if I get my timing just right...they usually go down without a fuss. We're still working on extending naps...the last couple of days have been better than last week so that's good news.

I don't know all the details of your situation but my best guess is your daughter is up too long between naps. How soon after waking in the a.m. does she take her first nap? One hour was the guideline for us for many months. At 5 months they could go 90 minutes and only now at 7 months can they go 2 hours.

I'd say your daughter is still so young that she needs frequent naps - up to 4 a day. She'll be ready for one morning and one afternoon nap in a few months.

Is it possible for you to spend 3 or 4 days with your daughter working on sleep issues while you keep your son with the sitter when you start your maternity leave? Just a thought. Sounds like she could benefit from some one-on-one sleep training! You might be able to avoid CIO if you perfect your timing? Also, FYI: my babies can't sleep through each other's cries during naps. It's too light of a sleep. So I have one napping in the nursery and the other in a pack and play in my room. I wish I could have kept them together but it just wasn't working no matter how hard I wished!

 

HSHHC is short for "Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child" by Dr. Marc Weissbluth. It's a manual for getting your kids to sleep!

I would forget about the 9 and 1 thing for now and focus on getting her to sleep no later than every 2 hours during the day. So if she wakes up at 7 am I would have her back in the crib for a nap by 8 or 9 at the very latest. Work on creating a routine that you do everytime you put her down for nap. You might nurse, rock in a chair, read a book, etc. for 15-30 mintues BEFORE the two hour mark to get her ready to sleep. She will learn/recognize the routine and it will help her nap.

So if she naps at 9 and only sleeps for 45 minutes, you would try to put her back down for her next nap by 11:45. She may take 4 naps during the day at this age. It may be more like 6 months before the 9 and 1 naps solidify. I think he says during the day to limit the crying to one hour and only do it once per nap session. So if she cries for 1 hour and then naps for 30 minutes, take her out and try again the next naptime.

A few thoughts on her crying. Is she refluxing? It may help to put her down on a sleep wedge so that her upper body is slightly elevated. Also, consider a sleep sack or swaddling to make her feel more secure. Is she teething? I have to give Elizabeth tylenol at night b/c her teething is bothering her so much.

Mine did CIO in the same room. But they both cried. I would probably separate them for now until she starts napping better so that his sleep isn't distrubed.

HTH

 

QUOTE
I would forget about the 9 and 1 thing for now and focus on getting her to sleep no later than every 2 hours during the day. So if she wakes up at 7 am I would have her back in the crib for a nap by 8 or 9 at the very latest. Work on creating a routine that you do everytime you put her down for nap. You might nurse, rock in a chair, read a book, etc. for 15-30 mintues BEFORE the two hour mark to get her ready to sleep. She will learn/recognize the routine and it will help her nap.

So if she naps at 9 and only sleeps for 45 minutes, you would try to put her back down for her next nap by 11:45. She may take 4 naps during the day at this age.


You took the words right out of my mouth!

Also agree with the pp - take adjusted age (from due date, not birth date) into account.

There is a lot of great information in HSHHC, but I think Weissbluth is nuts about the 9/1 thing. At 6 months, my babies need to nap after 1.5 hrs awake. Depending how long their naps are, that means 3-4 naps per day. If I tried to do it by the clock, my babies would be absolutely MISERABLE.

It does sound like your DD is overtired. When you get a chance, try to watch for the sleepy signs - decreased activity or jerky hyperactivity, glazed look, crankiness, thumb sucking, rubbing face, or whatever her own personal dead giveaway is - and put her down early.

I hope she can get some sleep soon! Good luck!

 

thanks for all of the feedback...

i forgot to mention they were born at just under 38 weeks. do you adjust their age even though they were considered full term?

i should have mentioned in my original post that i always try to get her down within 90 minutes of waking...it is usaully just after an hour that i notice the drowsy signs. she yawns, rubs her eyes, begins to fuss a little. that is when i start soothing... we use to swaddle with the miracle blanket but just last week we started the sleep sack instead. she SCREAMS when we put it on her because i think she knows it is time to rest. i put ds down awake around this time and it works like a charm. usually he is back to sleep within 1 hour and 15 minutes of waking up. she on the other hand refuses. on the weekends i try to put them down within an hour of waking but during the week i am driving them to the sitters right when they have been awake almost an hour. it's kind of tricky because they should be napping when we get there but there is so much going on with her intercepting babies, etc.

this "magic window" of 90-120 minutes is just not working for her. i figured the 9 & 1 nap times were a bit soon since they are still so little but if i could even get her to nap at all, ANY TIME, that would be great!

anyone out there try the CIO for naps? like i said, i catch her when i know she is tired and attempt to sooth and put her down but it is a nightmare. i think CIO is the next step but i would love to hear experiences with it.

good advice on letting ds stay at the sitter for a few days while i work with her. i'll look into that.

thanks again for your feedback and any other suggestions or experineces you have had.

 

I did CIO for naps, but not until around 5.5-6 months or so. Up until then, I just followed their cues. I have to say that my girls never lasted long. His book suggests the 2 hour window, but at that age we never made it, and my girls were getting about 4 naps a day. Although they were short naps, that's what worked for us.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe for now, since she is SO sleep-deprived, you could just do whatever it takes to get her to nap - any amount of soothing, cuddling, walking, letting her fall asleep on you, whatever. Then once she's caught up on rest a bit more, you could work on putting her down awake.

Also, would it help to go back to swaddling? If the miracle blanket doesn't work anymore, you could swaddle her in a huge blanket if she still likes it.

 

QUOTE
i should have mentioned in my original post that i always try to get her down within 90 minutes of waking...it is usaully just after an hour that i notice the drowsy signs. she yawns, rubs her eyes, begins to fuss a little. that is when i start soothing...


I feel your pain - sleep is so precious!!!! I am a devout follower of HSHHB an it sounds like your dd is WAY overtired. It is possible that she is ready to sleep 60 minutes or less after waking - at least until she catches up on her sleep. It is ideal to start the soothing and have her in bed before she starts exhibiting those signs of fatigue. If you can get her into bed while still happy, she may react more favorably to the task! Hang in there - it just takes longer for some babies (even full term) to get the hang of the self-soothe thing. If she does cry, it shouldn't last as long if you can get her down before she is exhausted. Hope this helps,

Angela

 

This is only my opinion, so please take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not sure that CIO is fair unless you're setting her up for success. If she's tired after an hour and you don't get her to bed until 90 minutes then she's going to cry and it's not really her fault. I let my boys fuss when going down for naps but that's because I know I got them there on time and all the stars are alligned for them to sleep (i.e. not overtired, diaper changed, tummy full but not too full, lighting dim, room temp. cool but not cold, etc.). Today we were at the hospital for 5 hours getting their helmets fitted so I knew bedtime was going to be terrible tonight - talk about overtired. I soothed them as much as they needed because I didn't feel it was reasonable to let them cry when it's not their fault their sleep is a mess today.

 

QUOTE(CHJH @ Oct 5 2007, 06:15 PM) [snapback]437740[/snapback]
This is only my opinion, so please take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not sure that CIO is fair unless you're setting her up for success. If she's tired after an hour and you don't get her to bed until 90 minutes then she's going to cry and it's not really her fault. I let my boys fuss when going down for naps but that's because I know I got them there on time and all the stars are alligned for them to sleep (i.e. not overtired, diaper changed, tummy full but not too full, lighting dim, room temp. cool but not cold, etc.). Today we were at the hospital for 5 hours getting their helmets fitted so I knew bedtime was going to be terrible tonight - talk about overtired. I soothed them as much as they needed because I didn't feel it was reasonable to let them cry when it's not their fault their sleep is a mess today.


going back to my post...i said that it is within 90 minutes...and usually just after an hour that we notice the signs and begin soothing. 90 minutes being the longest she has been up without trying to settle/soothe her. if we notice that she is tired after just an hour we do not keep her up any longer. sometimes it is after only one hour but for the most part it is around an hour and 15 minutes. my son is almost always asleep after this long. dd is pleasant and playful...laughing, talking, etc. one minute and then starting to fuss the next. we immediately start winding her down when she fusses. however, i can see how this might be too late.

angela... i like the idea of trying for an hour and putting her down even when she is happy. she has protested when attempting this but we will keep at it.

fusiagrown... when i picked her up from the sitter today she fell asleep in my arms. i let her sleep on me for 45 minutes. it was precious and i was glad she was sleeping any way she could. i think we will try swaddling again and see what happens. you are right...we probably need to do what it takes for now until she catches up on day time sleep. she did have four 30-45 minute naps today, which is progress!

we put her in the swing this evening to see if she would cat nap. (she use to sleep this way for hours in the late afternoon) this evening, she was happy as long as we were in the room and making eye contact, etc. she would start to fuss but then smile when we interacted with her. we decided to leave the room...she barely fussed (not even a real cry) and then fell asleep. i can see where she is starting to protest because she might prefer our company instead. it's very interesting how early they demonstrate their preferences!

thanks for all of your help... i will try some of your suggestions and keep you posted.

in the mean time...does anyone know the answer to my question about HSHHC recommendation for crying up to an hour? is it from start to finish...what happens if it is 15 minutes, break, 15 minutes, break...etc. ?

 

I have the exact same situation with my DD. I will post more later, my non sleeper/sleep fighter is in my arms but I did want to tell you I am trying to CIO/Ferber style for her naps and it is working. She still only sleeps for 45 min. but it is something. It is frustrating...I have tried all of the windows as well and she screams either way. She starts screaming everytime when we hit the third step upstairs. She is four months old and this escalated when we had to drop the miracle blanket/swaddling. No soothing, holding, or rocking works either. SHE HATES TO GO TO SLEEP!

My DS is like yours...down every hour and a half, out for a good sized nap!

Check out my last few posts if you get the chance... I will pm you!

Also, we just saw the ped and he said to try putting her down less...it may backfire but is worth a shot!

Amy