Nightime is hell! Please give us ideas?

We have 3 year old twin boys. we have somehow gotten into a routine where we wake them up at 7am (per a sleep doctor) and then they nap for 1 hour from 1:30-2:30. Then Ryan who is our tough one will not go to sleep until 10 to 10:30pm. So the sleep doctor told us he was doing what he was supposed to, because before we saw him which was a couple weeks ago they were napping for 1.5 hours.

So cutting back the nap to no more than 1 hour and then waking up prompt at 7am was supposed to get us to a bedtime of 9pm - 10 hours at night and 1 during the day for the 11 they need, some kids he said at this age need 10.5, most around 11 and some a bit more.

We called and talked to the nurse practioner yesterday and she said to leave things be and not try to move bedtime up before 945 and get him to sleep by 10pm, and do that for about 5 days and see how it goes.

The problem is nightime is miserable even then, he is over tired and then in the morning we drag him out of bed, and he goes down for naps "OK" depending on the day, today he fought for a few minutes but then crashed.

So the other problem is that he keeps his brother up as well with the fit he takes, and we have them in separate rooms.

Ryan will do anything from go down OK some nights, more often he wants to "give his brother a kiss goodnight", see mommy if daddy is up there, seem daddy if mommy is up there, needs this or that, etc. We have ignored him but he just keeps going until usually about the same time and then he wants to be tucked in, and we do that for him given he is calm at that point and goes right to sleep.

So now we wonder if we give up their naps and wake them by 7 and get them to bed by 8 for a solid 11 hours? We have skipped their naps a few times, not by choice but stuff just happened and sometimes he fought them, however mostly he does go for a nap.

The nurse told us to wait another 5 days to see if we can move back the bedtime to bringing him up at 945 and having him asleep by 10.
The problem is he is usually so CRANKY all afternoon waking him after only an hour that we suffer the rest of the day and before nap time he tends to get cranky.

He is a different kid with his sleep

So then Kyle also now doesn't generally fall asleep before 930 now either so it seems like we should cut their nap out but aren't sure how to do it? Then if they are out or fall asleep in the car for a bit, does that count toward their nap?

Today at nap he threw his cup at my husband, fought, kicked and everything and then crashed.

Now we are wondering if we should cut out their nap? But the sleep doctor said that because they both had been napping then it would be difficult to cut their nap because their bodies would have to adjust to it.

Any ideas?

 

Wow! Sounds like you are trying so hard and to no avail! I have 3 year old twin boys too! Sometimes I wonder how they get through the day because nighttimes sound like slumber parties! Now.....with that being said here are some things I have had to do that have helped. First, talk to the boys and tell them that this can no longer continue. Everyone needs more sleep. Make sure your expectations are firm and clear. Now execute without alot of emotion. I unwound the bulbs in the light fixture because the light helped them "party" more at night. I eliminated everything in their rooms excepts beds, a few stuffed animals and their potty chairs. Chests and toys were put in the closet with child proof lock. Did I hear screaming at first??? YES!!! They REALLY tried my patience but I prevailed! They are doing much better but still not perfect. I also stuck with the naps even though they did not sleep many times. Now they are sleeping again Whew! I know how hard this can be stay with it and good luck!

Mary

 

I'm not an expert and I know u've been to a professional, but it sounds to me like the bedtime is way too late. even with an hour nap I would think 7.30-8pm sounds more reasonable. By time 10pm comes he's overtired and so can't sleep.

Good luck

 

QUOTE(j&jtwins @ Jan 18 2009, 10:57 PM) [snapback]1152249[/snapback]
I'm not an expert and I know u've been to a professional, but it sounds to me like the bedtime is way too late. even with an hour nap I would think 7.30-8pm sounds more reasonable. By time 10pm comes he's overtired and so can't sleep.

Good luck

Completely agree! I would aim for a 7 am wake up, possibly a nap at 1 pm, until no later than 2.30 pm or maybe they'll do better without one (and just some quiet time, my perfect sleeper stopped napping at age 3 1/2, so not sure how old they are exactly, almost 4 or not?!), and then put them down at 7 pm or possibly before 8 pm when they do nap. Just 9-10 hours overnight is not sufficient for 3 yo in my opinion. Overtired children have more problems falling and staying asleep, and will fight more and more. Between age 3 and 4 only 50% of children nap and after age 4 only 10%.

My 4 1/2 yo is waking up between 7-7.30 am, no nap and goes to bed at 7 pm, and boy she needs with 5 full days of school. I sometimes put her down before 7 pm. The twins wake up at 7 am, usually nap somewhere between 1 and 3 and are back in bed at 6.45 pm.

When we lived in the States we saw Dr. Weissbluth, another famous expert (Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child), and he would have never suggested a bed time this late for young children (unless they might sleep til 9 am if that was the perfect solution for your family but usually it's not). He's a great ped and has done tons of research (his twin sleep study is due 5/19/09) and he has also established the Sleep Disorder Center in Chicago.

Personally I would try another approach, especially if they're so cranky in the afternoon ... that kind of says it. Weissbluth always told me to look at their behaviour around 5 pm ... if cranky, put them down earlier ... Car napping is not (real) napping. It's like sleeping in an airplane, you don't truly rest. They truly sound overtired to me ... thanks to this sleep doctor (IMHO).

 

They are 3. Give up the naps and put them in bed by 8:00. They might be cranky for a few days until they get used to no nap, but they will be fine. Once they are in bed earlier than they will sleep better and wake up on their own. Whenever you wake a child it will lead to a bit of grumpiness (not to say it was bad advice because I do agree they should be awake earlier rather than later) They sound like they are very overtired.

 

If I were you, to get back on track, I would....

1. not wake them tomorrow morning
2. skip the nap tomorrow
3. put them to bed tomorrow night at 730

10pm, IMO, is way too late for a 3 year old that is expected to get up at 7am. They may or may not be done with napping(my older 3 were done at 2, and the twins are in the process of giving them up), and I would still put them in their room for an hour or so around 1, not letting them sleep past 230 or so, if nothing else for some quiet time for you!

I have a 4 year old that does not nap, and sleeps from 730-7 on school days, 8 on the weekends. The twins are 2.5 and sleep 730-7, and nap every 3-4 days now. My 11 year old goes to bed at 8, and my 12 year old goes to bed at 9!

You definitely have some overtired kiddos on your hands! :hug:

 

I wonder what prompted the doc to tell you to wake them at 7 a.m.? My girls get up at about 7:30 only because their father comes to pick them up. Otherwise they sleep in until anywhere between 8:30 and 10 a.m. bed time is around 9-9:30 and some days they nap in the car on the way home. I try to make sure they don't get more than an hours nap because then they will be up later. I also sit in the hallway just outside their room until they fall asleep. On days that they don't take a nap, they fall asleep within 10-15 minutes.

 

Honestly, the only thing that helped with a decent bedtime in our house was the elimination of naps. When they take a nap, they cannot fall asleep before ten. If they do not take a nap, they are down by 8pm without any fuss.

Naps are hit or miss around here. We gave them up for awhile since bedtimes were getting to be so rough. But then they were cranky during the day. So we went back to naps and everyone is happy again.

My honest recommendation, although I am certainly not a sleep doctor: drop naps, don't wake them in the morning, and put them to bed at 8pm (earlier if they are not getting 11 hours of sleep).

 

I agree, if you don't do a nap, I would just let them sleep in the morning (depending on whether that works for you ... I need to get them ready for school here, the bus is here at 8.40 am). However, mine still nap (and so did my oldest) and then I would usually wake her up at 7 am in order to secure the morning nap PLUS she had to go to school at 8.30 am). It kind of depends on your activities during the day as well, school, no school, etc.

I think 12 hours awake, 12 hours down is basically what you should be aiming for. If they wake up at 7 am, I would put them down at 7 pm (assuming no nap), 8 if 8, but I wouldn't go much later than 8. It may take a little time to get adjusted so don't expect miracles overnight.

 

I agree with some of the PPs. I would get rid of the nap, put them to bed earlier. If my girls nap -- even a short nap -- during the day, they cannot fall asleep until 9:30- 10pm at night. And they are good! They will just lie there in bed quietly, but I can hear them shuffling around in their blankets, sighing etc, so I know they are awake. They simply can't fall asleep. If there's no nap, we bring them to their rooms at 7:45pm, read 3-4 stories, lots of hugs and kisses, out the door around 8pm, and they are asleep within 10 or 15 min. They will sleep well until usually 7:30 or 8 am on the days they are home. On pre-school days they have to wake up at about 6:45am, and usually do NOT want to get up that early. Some days they seem sleepier than others (especially toward the end of the week when they've had to wake up for school), so I will put them to bed a little earlier.

 

I am not sure if this will help or not, but I have been having problems with my 2 1/2 year old twins sleeping at night. I have found if I ask them where they want to sleep it sometimes helps. On most nights they say they want to sleep on the floor or in a tunnel I made for them. When that happens they have to get their pillow and blankets and bring them to the floor so I can tuck them in. They still try to play, but I find I don't have as much problems gettimg them to go to sleep. Before I go to bed I always go in and put them in bed hoping they will want to sleep in their beds again. Anyway, I just find if they think they are getting to make a big decision like where they are going to sleep they cooperate with me a little better.

My guys go to bed around 8pm usually. Sometimes I can get them both to take a nap, but most days it is only one will nap for me. I generally don't let them sleep for more than 1 1/2 hrs at nap time... if they sleep longer than that they don't sleep at night. I hope this helps. Good luck!

 

I agree the bedtime is WAY too late if they are up at 7 am ( if they slept till 9ish I would not worry so much)

My 3 yr olds sleep from 7pm-6:30am most nights without a nap (11-12 hours)

If they nap (1-2:30) they sleep 8pm-6oish am(11-12 hours)

I have one that naps off/on and the other that does not really. They both 'rest' for 1-2 hours in the afternoon. They need 12 hours of sleep--and get up aroudn 6:30 no matter what--so they go to bed at 7 pm to get 11-12 hours.

I would not wake them unless you have to (school , childcare etc) and try to go to bed earlier adn do without naps if you can. You may be surprised at how early they will fall asleep.