Long-term projects/reports

Jackson has a report on Marco Polo due in 10 days. He's known about it since the beginning of December and said he's been working on it at school, and he brought home his folder and did some work on his map over Christmas break. We also went and checked out some books at the library for him.

Today, I looked at his map and notes worksheet, and his instructions from his teacher. Good grief! The child is SO far behind! On his notes worksheet, there was a place for three "where/when/why"s to be listed for his explorer. He had one word written down: "coconuts." In his "other interesting facts" section, he had written that Polo's dad and uncle were also explorers. And in his "best known for" section, he put "The game Marco Polo." Argh!

He can TELL me all about Marco Polo and the places he explored, people he met, and things he discovered. But when it comes to putting it down on paper, it's like there's a connection missing. Now I will have to walk him through the research and writing, and it becomes more work for me.

How much help do you give on projects like this? (He's in fourth grade)

Also, how much coaching do you give to keep your child on track for long-term projects? Jackson has something called a Literature Log, where he has to read 1,000 pages by February, and he has to write a "story map" for each completed book, which describes the characters, plot, situations, and conclusions. So far, he's read one book, even though he checked out a bunch from the library and said he's been working on it at school.

He is already discouraged and angry at himself just at the concept of not being up to speed on these two projects. I don't feel like I can let him just "sink" because it would absolutely kill his educational self-esteem, which is fragile as it is.

Anybody else have to "pull" their kids through a bit on projects like these? He's gotten so much more responsible this year, but we've still got a long way to go, obviously!

 

Amy, it sounds like he is having trouble with the written expression part. What I would try doing is have him dictate the parts of his project, and you write them, and then he has to re-write. I would also talk to his teachers to see if he is having trouble with written expression beyond the program. I know he is very bright, and I wouldn't want to see him held back because he has difficultly expressing himeself. Good luck!

 

The only project I have ever pulled (one of) my kids through was their major project in second grade. It involved building a replica of a native American village, and it was due a few days after we returned from a week-long vacation. It also clearly said that it COULD be done as a family project. DD wanted help, which I gave her; DS wanted to do his all by himself.

My kids are in fifth grade now, and though I will keep on top of them about projects (and help them cut it into doable little "chunks" that don't seem so overwhelming), I absolutely will NOT do anything besides that, except reviewing their spelling or grammar with them once their work is done. They're in fifth grade -- these grades will NOT follow them to their future colleges or employers -- and I think it's far more valuable for them to either rescue themselves from their own lack of diligence, or to realize that there are real consequences for putting things off. The few times that my kids have done a poor job of something and brought home a poor grade, it has taught them far more than they would have learned from my doing it for them.

ETA: having reread your post and the section on his self-esteem, if he is struggling, I would work harder to keep him on task -- the chunk thing -- but I still would NOT do it for him. TELL him to read 40 pages today, etc., or write the section on XXXX, and be nearby to help, but don't do it for him.

 

My 4th grader is usually pretty good, but the amount of projects they are doing this year is absurd. As soon as we get one finished, they are starting on another one!

I don't do anything for her, but I do question her as to what is being done in class. So, if I didn't say "Do you have all your work done on your project?", she might not volunteer it. I do ask, and she'll say "we" need to work on it. I sit at the table & help her, because she has a focus problem. Once she gets her gears going, she's alright - but sometimes it's an uphill climb. She also asks for more feedback than I would prefer, but we'll work on that.

For right now, I do ask & stay on top of her. Recently, I hadn't been asking about her AR points - and it came VERY close to goal, and she hadn't read & tested on enough books. If you don't make your goal, you don't get to go to the pizza party. She's NEVER missed goal in all the years she's been doing AR, and she had a bit of an anxiety attack. I kept her out of gymnastics (she trains 24 hrs/week), and basically let her do nothing but read so she could catch up. I told her that was her one-time bailout. Now she keeps track of how many points she's earned in her agenda, how many short she is of her goal, and when the last day is.

So, my answer is - I do help. Sometimes more, sometimes less - depending on what I think they NEED, and what I think they can do on their own. Your Jackson sounds very tenderhearted, and would probably take failure very hard. I would do what I could to prevent that, without doing the work for him.

 

I think it's completely valid for a parent to teach time management. You can even explain it to him as such. Let him know that you have confidence in his ability to gather and present the information --he just needs to learn how to organize himself. Maybe even point out some big jobs that you accomplish in chunks, always moving toward your goal -- right now, I think of all the preparations for Christmas :icon_biggrin: . The final deadline is outside of our control, but we can manage each of the smaller steps that get us to the goal. Help him start from the deadline and move backwards to what has to be finished when. Let him put this on a calendar ( you can use the calendar template in MS Word, if you have Word), along with scheduled times that you or dad will expect a report on his progress -- that should probably be daily, if he's this close to the wire!

I think one of the scary things is that bright kids are often able to pul off projects like this -- they know and understand so much without effort that they never had to learn time management skills.

BTW, I love his written answer about what Marco Polo is most famous for :rotflmbo: . That sounds like something you'd see in Reader's Digest.

 

Oops, I just realized I did not answer your question at all! The school librarian in me jumped right in, without reminding the mother-of-5-year-olds-me that her kids have never actually had a long term project. :FIFblush:

 

I like Sharon's suggestion! In fact, I think I remember that you've tried this strategy before with Jackson with good results? By taking dictation for him, the work will be all his own but you will help him to get his excellent verbal explanations down on paper. I know that it is extremely difficult for some people to express ideas clearly in some medium. For example, in verbal communication, I am absolutely stunted and draw a blank 80% of the time, but I am pretty good with written words. Perhaps Jackson has the opposite problem; his thoughts flow easily from his brain into speech, but he draws a blank if he is trying to go from his brain to the written word.

If you write down what he dictates, it is all his own work, and he can then copy it down himself. And tidy up the sentences a bit, too.

You may remember that I am a hands off Mom when it comes to a great deal of helping out on projects, but I do think Sharon's suggestion is fair and useful because the thoughts nad work will be Jackson's.

I agree that you need to find a way to help him with this and not have his confidence in his abilities at school slip because of this hurdle he is facing. He can do it, but he can sure use your help to come up with a strategy to capitalize on his strengths and work around his weaknesses! He's a bright boy and, like a PP said, he needs to find ways to express that in written language. IN time, I think he will be able to skip the step where you write down and get tot he place where he can think out loud and then pause to write his ideas down himself...but probably not right now in third or fourth grade!

 

Thank you all! I really do appreciate your input.

What concerned me most is that he thought that he was right on track with those few notes and a VERY messy map. (Neatness is not one of his strengths!) I sat down and went through his library books and realized they aren't very clear, especially with answering the "when" and "why" questions, so I can see now why he didn't have a lot down on paper.

We're going to borrow an encyclopedia from Grandpa today, and I think I'll break the assignment into workable goals for him, as some of you have suggested. I love the idea of making a schedule for him. He seems to get a bit overwhelmed by the thought of a lot of work by a deadline, thinking he'll have no time to see his friends or do other things. Small, manageable chunks of work will make him (and me!) much happier.

I definitely don't want to do the work for him. I guess I feel, though, that he'll learn more being guided through a project and shown how to do it right than just allowed to sink.

Thanks again!

 

Oh definitely he needs some guidance, Amy. I think many parents don't want to "help" their child with these long term projects at a young age for fear of actually doing the project themselves. But time management and the "how tos" of pulling it all together need to be taught -- it usually does not just come naturally. This does not mean you are doing the research or actually putting the project together. I always asked a lot of questions and kept on top of them as to where they were at in the process with gentle reminders about what needed to be done yet. In fact, even Sean, who is a Jr. this year has heard from me several times over this break. I normally stay way out of his academics because he is in high school and is on his own. However, over Christmas break, he had eight books to read for his AP English III class this semester. When I noticed him going out with friends and playing video games, etc., and didn't see him reading, lol, I asked, "Sean, how are you coming along on those books?" Several times. He just needed a gentle prod to remind him of how much reading he still needed to get done. Definitely in fourth grade, Jackson needs a bit of guidance in pulling this all together, but it can be done! B&C have been doing those long term projects since 2nd grade, with more involved projects in 3rd, 4th and 5th, for TAG, and by 5th grade, there was very little I needed to do to keep them on track. They had learned the process! Now as middle schoolers, they are self-motivated and able to pace themselves on their projects quite well. No more Mom needed!!

 

Kids absolutely need guidance during their first few years of reports/projects. Without actually "doing" the work for them you must teach them how to find the information, organize it and get it down on paper. It IS a lot of work for the parents (in the beginning) just doing those things, but eventually (in middle school for my girls) they'll do 100% themselves. Don't despair, Amy, and don't let him see you frustrated as that might upset him further.

 

I agree with giving some guidance and suggestions on these big projects. There's a big difference between helping your child to learn how to do research, dig out the important information and put it all together than in doing the project for them. Letting a child flounder with the work and then get a bad grade does not teach them the "hows" of doing such a project. I know quite often Sarah will think she is doing something just the way she should be, but when I look at it, she isn't. Showing her where her mistakes are and how to correct them is not me doing the work for her. I took this approach with Logan when he was in elementary school and he pretty much does all his work on his own now that he's in middle school. Like Kim, I need to remind him now and then as far as keeping on schedule, but that's about it. I think helping kids at this age does a lot to give them the proper tools to eventually learn how to complete these projects on their own.

 

Amy, does Jackson like little little electronic gizmos? If so, and if he's having a hard time with the transferring thoughts to paper, maybe a little voice recorder might help him with this process. I know a few adults who use one to help organize their thoughts.

 

Thanks everybody! Things are looking up!

I broke down the assignment into little bits, like you said. I had him read the books one day, skim for important dates/facts another day and write them down, and yesterday he re-did his map with DH. His first map was a messy disaster and DH showed his what steps to take to make it look good. He did a great job!

Just now, I had him bring his notes and books near the computer, and he dictated his report to me. Holy cow! This kid knows Marco Polo inside and out! He dictated 8 paragraphs in a matter of minutes, with very little guidance from me. Occasionally I suggested he might want to rethink a word choice, but his information is really well-organized, and he put in details and interesting facts that will keep his classmates listening during his oral report.

You should have seen the grin on his face when he saw his words on paper!

He will have to either retype or handwrite it now, but having him dictate is definitely the way to go. As he gets older, I love the idea of him speaking into a hand-held recording device and then transcribing it later.

He still needs to make a few visual aids to go with his report, but he's in great shape for presenting it on Thursday.

Thanks again to all of you for your ideas and support!

 

Thanks for this wonderful update, Amy! It sounds like you found just the right combination of guidance, neat tricks (dictation...I know a doctor, BTW, who dictates all his reports to this day and then writes them down; he was a lot like JAckson when we were young, I think!). This is such a happy outcome. I think JAckson will do wonderfully AND he's learning great techniques to eventually take over the planning and execution with minimal guidance in the future. Way to go!!

 

Thanks for giving the update. This will give him such a boost in his confidence -- a learning experience in more ways than one!

And now I know who to call if want to hear more about Marco Polo .

 

ADDED LATER: Whoops!!! I just read the PP, and I have nothing new to add. But since I've already typed it.....

This is what I typed too late to be of any relevance:
DS is also in Fourth grade. The teacher told us at the beginning of the year that the children's biggest challenge (some of them) is learning time management. They try to stress calendars and daily planners in school, and they also have ALOT of assignments that are days or weeks long. BTW, DS doesn't "get" the whole "how to use a planner" thing. He just carries it around and writes in it when he has to, which he feels is seldom!
This is what we've found out the hard way:
- my son GREATLY underestimates how long each assignment will take, and so never plans enough time for work
- If left to himself, he'd wait until the night before the project is due, confident that "That'll just take me a minute" and then have to stay up late

The teacher presents the entire project, and then parcels it out in small "sections" (partial assignments). She gives them time to work on some during school, as well as assigning some to do at home. That approach seems to work very well with DS, I imagine b/c it reminds him daily of a due date/assignment.
We left him alone on this "managing homework" until winter break, when he had a poetry assignment and we realized that he'd left it for the last two days of break and still had to write two poems, a draw a couple pictures, etc! Again, he told us, "I can write a poem in about 5 minutes" ---- NOT!!!!!
So, you have to stay on top of things, but not nag.
I know what you mean when you say he can TELL you details but not think to write them.
DS had to do a report about the main character in a book the class had read. He read it to me, made some statements, told me why he'd made those statements but when I read the final report NONE OF THE REASONS WERE IN THERE. He just wrote the statements and quit. I said, "Why don't you write down just what you told me? That's called supporting your statements." and he just said "Oh".

 

I hope what I'm about to type is relevant to what you girls have been saying.....my kids get a lot of projects, too. My complaint is this....if my kids do the whole project or even most of the project themselves, it doesn't look good because other kids have parents who do projects for them. My kids look like they put little or no effort into their project next to the other kids because Jane Smith has a dad who's an engineer and Joe Bob has a mom who is a doctor and their projects are unbelievable! I have complained about this many times to different teachers in diiferent grades and it doesn't stop. As long as parents are doing their kids work , I will help mine because I want them to get a decent grade. It's a shame that these projects are not a true reflection of the child's creativity but the parents. I make sure and tell my kids I know they do excellent work and their teacher should NOT be comparing their projects to their classmates. I don't offer my help, I encourage them to do it on their own but they know Suzy Sucker's mom is helping Suzy A LOT so they want me to help, them, too. I still haven't found a solution to this.

 

Tara, believe me, the teachers know what kids do their own projects and do grade accordingly. The teachers also know what a child's "regular" work looks like, so while you think it looks unfinished and sloppy, the teachers do know that the kids did their own work.

 

Exactly what I was going to say, Sharon. The teachers know.

 

Just wanted to update again:

Jackson got an A+ on the project!

The teacher commented on how well he knew his subject, how effectively he did his oral report, and that he volunteered to go first on the second day (I'm so proud of him for being brave -- I was a nervous wreck about public speaking at that age!). She even gave him full points for his map which, while DH had him do it over and gave him some pointers, he did by himself. It was still messy, but accurate.

I will admit, I feel guilty about one thing. He had to make a head-and-shoulders posterboard of Marco Polo with the face cut out (so he could hold it up while giving his report in first-person as Marco Polo), and I gave him a lot of help with that. He decided on the 3-D materials to use, but I gave a lot of advice about what to put where and did much of the cutting and gluing. His fine motor skills are really quite bad (handwriting, drawing, even tying shoes!) and I was afraid he would get too frustrated by the time and effort it would require. He had worked so hard on the report and map, I knew he would be ready to give up. I have resolved not to do that again, though. I feel especially bad about it because the teacher commented about how nice it was.

 

Glad to hear he did so well, Amy!!

 

Sounds like he did a great job, and hurray for being brave and doing well speaking in public!

I wouldn't feel guilt over giving him some help with the craft end of the project. Unless it was an art assignment, that stuff drives me nuts! I don't think that part of a Social Studies grade should come from how artistic something is. Okay, yeah, I guess you've touched a nerve: one of the kids' Social Studies projects earlier this year, a poster, derived 20% of the grade from "Made effective use of color". Seemed strange to me.

 

QUOTE(jxnsmama @ Feb 19 2008, 11:21 AM) [snapback]629408[/snapback]
Just wanted to update again:

Jackson got an A+ on the project!


That's awesome.

Don't feel guilty. Mom's push their kids a bit. Look how great he did!!!

 

QUOTE
Just wanted to update again:

Jackson got an A+ on the project!

The teacher commented on how well he knew his subject, how effectively he did his oral report, and that he volunteered to go first on the second day (I'm so proud of him for being brave -- I was a nervous wreck about public speaking at that age!). She even gave him full points for his map which, while DH had him do it over and gave him some pointers, he did by himself. It was still messy, but accurate.


Well done, Jackson! :clapping: