ISO: high-security juvenile detention facility for pre-schoolers

The last few weeks have been simply horrid, behavior-wise. Nick is the main culprit. Joe is a terminally whinny mess, but I'm attributing it to the jagged mountains currently erupting through his gums...hoping to get my sweet guy back post haste. He thinks Nick is a rock star, and 70% of the crap he pulls is a product of copy-cat syndrome.

They don't listen AT ALL. Everything is a game, right down to giving kisses at bed time. Standing up at the table (meals are a disaster), bolting in parking lots (on the few occasions when we go sans-stroller), I'm going to have to go on a lethal dose of Prozac (which will surely hamper the S.W.A.T. team level of adult supervision they require) just to function. It really limits what I'm able to do with them, and I'm sure that boredom is a contributing factor to the behavior issues. If they would actually listen (and not bolt or get into EVERYTHING) when we're out and about I could do so much more with them. I enrolled them in gymnastics to get them some exercise in a contained area and introduce them to staying with a group/class. All the other kids (24m - 4 years) sit in the circle, follow directions, and stay with the group. We are by no means the youngest in the class. It's only salt in the would when all the other parents look at me with sympathy and wide eyes commenting, "No wonder you stay so thin." as I dart to and fro to keep them focused and together.

I kept telling myself that they simply weren't mature enough to handle some things and that it would come with time, exposure, and practice. However, it has become abundantly clear that Nick is just the world's most highly evolved, 2-year old ball buster and that he delights in the negative attention he gets from his behavior and could care less about positive reinforcement.

We do a modified, slightly aged-down version of Magic 1, 2, 3! and time outs (in their crib b/c they aren't mature enough to stay in one spot, and when we do it they simply turn that into a game too). I am actually rather a heartless woman, so consistency isn't the issue. They simply don't care about the consequences. What's a girl to do (I checked and ebay will not allow me to list them). :cry:

Thanks for the vent. (Debi, this is all your fault...your big boy beds - no biggie post put me over the edge). :winking:

 

:hug: No advice but to keep them in strollers (which I'm sure is a given)! Sorry.

 

:hug: :hug: Grrrr! I find that my 2 together are definitely more of a handful than each of the others were alone (maybe because you can physically contain one, but not two). But, they love to go out so much, they know they must behave in order to accomplish that!

 

Have you tried putting *things* in time out instead of them? My girls really respond to that especially with the correct 'currency.' This is something my DH instituted and since he was a behavioral specialist on a children's psychiatric inpatient unit for years, I trust his ability to behaviorally modify my girls

What is their currency? If the current consequences aren't enough to keep Nick from doing the behavior, then maybe you need new consequences. What kind of negative attention does he get when he's bad? What if you lavish attention on Joe when Nick is in time out (that sounds cruel- but you get my point, right?). I have a leader and follower too... DH and I call Ana the master-mind, and Meara the muscle (even though she is more petite she is strong and wants Ana to think she is cool).

GL and hang in there.

 

I have also put things in time-out. In fact, I still do it with the teenagers (sort of; I don't put the actual "thing" up high, but remove their permission to use it).

 

I've found that Ainsley is also a currency and rewards/removal of items child rather than time-out. TO works for Bea, but Ainsley could care less. I have the opposite problem with Bea in group class situations as she just velcros herself to my side and I can't get her to do anything for the first couple sessions of anything we do. Even at playdates with people we know, same thing.

Yelling just makes things worse, and unfortunately, I tend to yell when I get frustrated with them.
I don't know, maybe just start with bribing them like "if you can sit down through dinner, you can have an M&M/sticker/whatever". Conversely with bad behavior, like say they keep getting on the table and jumping, <favorite toy> is going to TO until you stop jumping.
Not sure if it will work, but maybe get their attention. Hang in there!

 

Sadly we also employ the toy time out. It is not his currency either. I am thinking about trying a sticker chart (nothing specific, just random...wow I'm proud of you, you get a sticker for your chart) thing.

Toddlers are toddlers and I don't really expect things to be easy, but he really turns everything into a 'how far can I push it' game (and then goes well beyond that point). <_< It's just frustrating because I want to have fun with him and instead waste so much time (and unecessary frustration) disciplining him, ignoring his brother, and missing out on doing fun things.

I wonder if increasing individual time would help...like if I only took one to the store (so I could focus more on modifying behavior/expectations one at a time) then once they got good at it individually start going together (and hope all hell doesn't break loose).

Sigh...

 

The only suggestion I have is to be very specific with that sticker chart. Pick one thing that you want to change and focus on it for a while. You're a great mom and I really don't feel qualified to tell you what to do but I've found that if I get to general with my boys then they really don't know what I want from them.

One more thing, last week I finally bit the bullet and started making Tucker and Chase stay in the time out spot instead of using their crib. It was HORRIBLE until they got used to it but now, they mostly take responsibility for walking to the spot and staying there. Time outs are MUCH more effective now for some reason.

Good luck sister, I've been there. I took the boys to play at tot town today and they were just horrible. The other moms were standing around chatting while their kids played nicely and I felt like such a tool while I chaced mine around.

 

I think if I really try to figure out when my girls got really bad, it would have to be around the time I started to take the classes online instead of on site. They had "school" to look forward to and I got a break from them by sitting in class... Yeah, some break. They do okay with certain things if I "bribe" them. Yesterday with Natalie, "If you wear your glasses until lunch time, I'll give you a sticker." She kept them on. Maybe we both should try that with behavior in short segments. "If you can eat nicely at the table for dinner, I'll give you a sticker." Of course it doesn't sound as good when it's, "If you don't beat the crap out of your sister for the next hour, I'll give you a sticker." I've got to make something work for the next week until they get out of the house for a little while. I'd like them both to survive until they start school.

 

A friend of mine got so fed up with her 2-year-old a couple years ago that she took away EVERY single toy he had. Seriously. She put them all in a huge garbage bag in the garage. He had to just deal with it for a week, and then he could earn them back one at a time with good behavior.

I don't know if this would work with twins. It worked really well for her singleton...

Have you read any John Rosemond? I don't know if you'd like him -- he's a little hardcore and old-fashioned -- but I find a lot of what he suggests useful. He has a book called Making the Terrible Twos Terrific...

 

QUOTE(Azmom23 @ Oct 27 2008, 01:36 PM) [snapback]1044371[/snapback]
The only suggestion I have is to be very specific with that sticker chart. Pick one thing that you want to change and focus on it for a while.


Good point...being random and vague will likely have no effect whatsoever.

They were, of course, angels tonight...just to keep me on my toes.

Thanks again for letting me vent, girls.

 

QUOTE(Becca34 @ Oct 27 2008, 09:54 PM) [snapback]1044860[/snapback]
A friend of mine got so fed up with her 2-year-old a couple years ago that she took away EVERY single toy he had. Seriously. She put them all in a huge garbage bag in the garage. He had to just deal with it for a week, and then he could earn them back one at a time with good behavior.

I don't know if this would work with twins. It worked really well for her singleton...

Have you read any John Rosemond? I don't know if you'd like him -- he's a little hardcore and old-fashioned -- but I find a lot of what he suggests useful. He has a book called Making the Terrible Twos Terrific...


Seriously?! Mine would DESTROY the house. They can turn anything into a toy and wouldn't care that their toys were gone... they'd just make more toys out of random household objects.

 

QUOTE(Becca34 @ Oct 28 2008, 02:54 AM) [snapback]1044860[/snapback]
A friend of mine got so fed up with her 2-year-old a couple years ago that she took away EVERY single toy he had. Seriously. She put them all in a huge garbage bag in the garage. He had to just deal with it for a week, and then he could earn them back one at a time with good behavior.

I don't know if this would work with twins. It worked really well for her singleton...

Have you read any John Rosemond? I don't know if you'd like him -- he's a little hardcore and old-fashioned -- but I find a lot of what he suggests useful. He has a book called Making the Terrible Twos Terrific...



QUOTE(debid @ Oct 28 2008, 04:00 AM) [snapback]1044925[/snapback]
Seriously?! Mine would DESTROY the house. They can turn anything into a toy and wouldn't care that their toys were gone... they'd just make more toys out of random household objects.


I did that with my oldest singleton and yes, it worked. She was older at the time but the point was made. I've actually threatened it with her since and that corrects the messy room right up.
I can't see it working with my twins. There isn't enough of me to go around as it is. They'd be swinging from the ceiling fan for sure. (And yes, they've tried to find a way up there already.)

 

My are the same way. I am also looking for idea

 

I have been there. My children (unfortunately we found out this week that ALL of them independent of gender!) all have a horrible horrible phase aged between 18 months and 4.
There were days when I would lock myself away to cry, because I was just too exhausted to deal with them. They would cry and whine, and hit and bite, and break stuff. Ollie would stay in time out crying like a banshee the whole time and then needed like an hour recovery time from time out because he would have screamed himself into a frenzy, throwing up and the whole nine yards!
Alex on the other hand was much more difficult. He would laugh at my attempts to put him i time out, and then after his 2, 3 or 4 minutes in the corner he would just go and do whatever I forbid again. And again. And again. And he is a very physically able little guy, he could climb like a freaking money by age 2 and reach everything that I had put out of reach, he could run faster than the wind and escape through keyholes and under doors. Plus he knew his timing exactly. He would wait for hsi brother to need attention and then go trash something. We call him (lovingly) AC, the antichrist (also his initials actually).

I thought about how to cheer you up and then remembered a day that tends to cheer up people who think their kids are the worst: Alex once climbed the bathroom sink and smeared vaseline all over the mirror (vaseline is difficult to remove from the mirror!), when I found him, I put him in time out in his room, when I went to collect him, he had stripped down and peed on his floor! On purpose! So another time out it was, but afraid of what he would do to his room, I had him do time out in the bathroom (after removing all creams, toothpastes, etc...). And I sat outside the bathroom, but he kept grinning at me and making me even more mad. Plus downstairs the other 4 kids were really loud, so I went downstairs to check on them and when I came back upstairs Al had unwrapped 1 whole toilet roll and stuffed it into the toilet meticulously. This clogged the toilet! I was at my wits end! I do nto even remember how this story ends, I don't know if I timed him out again, or if I gave up, but the moral or the story: there is always a child more annoying than yours. Namely mine!

By the way when the man came to unclog it, we found a lot of toilet paper, but also 2 power rangers and a pacifier lodged into the depths of our sanitary system!

Now the good news is, they are 5 now and although we still have trying days, generally they are really pleasant children. Ollie still whines, but he now understands much better and I have learned to use my more powerful tool (mommy is sad when you do ...) with him. Alex is still a difficult version of Dennis the Menace, but he is also really sweet and he makes for excellent stories to tell at family reunions! And he has learned (partly) where his limits are, and he has learned (again partly) that good attention is better than bad attention!

So hugs, just write down when they do something that may be fun later on in life, you won't want to forget! Millie

 

QUOTE(Millie&twins @ Oct 28 2008, 04:19 AM) [snapback]1045046[/snapback]
I have been there. My children (unfortunately we found out this week that ALL of them independent of gender!) all have a horrible horrible phase aged between 18 months and 4.
There were days when I would lock myself away to cry, because I was just too exhausted to deal with them. They would cry and whine, and hit and bite, and break stuff. Ollie would stay in time out crying like a banshee the whole time and then needed like an hour recovery time from time out because he would have screamed himself into a frenzy, throwing up and the whole nine yards!
Alex on the other hand was much more difficult. He would laugh at my attempts to put him i time out, and then after his 2, 3 or 4 minutes in the corner he would just go and do whatever I forbid again. And again. And again. And he is a very physically able little guy, he could climb like a freaking money by age 2 and reach everything that I had put out of reach, he could run faster than the wind and escape through keyholes and under doors. Plus he knew his timing exactly. He would wait for hsi brother to need attention and then go trash something. We call him (lovingly) AC, the antichrist (also his initials actually).

I thought about how to cheer you up and then remembered a day that tends to cheer up people who think their kids are the worst: Alex once climbed the bathroom sink and smeared vaseline all over the mirror (vaseline is difficult to remove from the mirror!), when I found him, I put him in time out in his room, when I went to collect him, he had stripped down and peed on his floor! On purpose! So another time out it was, but afraid of what he would do to his room, I had him do time out in the bathroom (after removing all creams, toothpastes, etc...). And I sat outside the bathroom, but he kept grinning at me and making me even more mad. Plus downstairs the other 4 kids were really loud, so I went downstairs to check on them and when I came back upstairs Al had unwrapped 1 whole toilet roll and stuffed it into the toilet meticulously. This clogged the toilet! I was at my wits end! I do nto even remember how this story ends, I don't know if I timed him out again, or if I gave up, but the moral or the story: there is always a child more annoying than yours. Namely mine!

By the way when the man came to unclog it, we found a lot of toilet paper, but also 2 power rangers and a pacifier lodged into the depths of our sanitary system!

Now the good news is, they are 5 now and although we still have trying days, generally they are really pleasant children. Ollie still whines, but he now understands much better and I have learned to use my more powerful tool (mommy is sad when you do ...) with him. Alex is still a difficult version of Dennis the Menace, but he is also really sweet and he makes for excellent stories to tell at family reunions! And he has learned (partly) where his limits are, and he has learned (again partly) that good attention is better than bad attention!

So hugs, just write down when they do something that may be fun later on in life, you won't want to forget! Millie


Thanks for the giggle! Yeah, I've had days also when they'd make a new mess while I was cleaning up the old one and on and on until I finally wised up. I now make them take their timeout where the mess occurred even if I don't really want them in it just so that they can't do anything else. They've literally sat on the kitchen rug for 40 minutes while I mopped up an entire container of car wash concentrate that hubby left on the table thinking they couldn't or wouldn't open. It got the grout amazingly clean but the tile was still slippery with residue after many, many gallons of water. I shudder to think what they could have done to the rest of the house in that 40 minutes if it only took 2 to make the soap spill that they were ice skating in when I discovered it. Their utter lack of remorse can be incredibly frustrating.