IF you had/have a bad sleeper...

Okay, Max is a foul sleeper. He wakes up crying anything between 2-6 times in the evening, and then rarely goes longer than 2 1/2 hours at a stretch at night. We think that the original problem was caused by silent reflux, for which he is now medicated. But I think that now he has just lost the ability to sleep long stretches (he was doing longer ones until about 14 weeks). I do not believe that CIO is a good option - I always swore I would never do that to a baby. However, I am not sure how to fix this. I have to spend a huge amount of time every day putting Max down, or going back in to him. If he was my only baby, it wouldn't matter - I know that with enough gentle help he would learn how to go back to sleep again. But I don't have the time now - I have another baby, and an older daughter as well, and they both need time and attention. I have had to leave Max to cry on several occasions, when I was feeding or putting Kate down. And he doesn't settle on his own - he works himself up into a right lather. People have recommended Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, and I have ordered it, I will get it in about 10 days.
So, I'd like to hear what you did to help your bad sleeper - even if you ended up doing CIO. FTR, I am not interested in hearing how great CIO is from people who don't have a problem with it. I would like to hear from those who have struggled with how to get a baby to sleep gently, when dealing with twins, and how they ended up being successful.
TIA

 

Mine are still a little young for CIO, but I have one that even now can fuss a little and eventually put himself to sleep and the other one will scream until he is hysterical and can't breath and won't calm down until I pick him up. Sleeping is still pretty eratic for both and I end up rocking them for long stretches sometimes. I hope you get some good tips.

 

QUOTE(Mimsy @ Nov 28 2007, 02:38 AM) [snapback]511874[/snapback]
So, I'd like to hear what you did to help your bad sleeper - even if you ended up doing CIO. FTR, I am not interested in hearing how great CIO is from people who don't have a problem with it. I would like to hear from those who have struggled with how to get a baby to sleep gently, when dealing with twins, and how they ended up being successful.
TIA

Hi. My DS has been a miserable, miserable sleeper. My DD a dream. I tried CIO with him a few times and thus far it has not worked. With my DD, I can put her down and she usually cries a very little, 30 secs to 2 minutes, and then is asleep or snuggling in bed. With my DS, he will start crying and it will just escalate and if I let him go...it can be an hour or 2 of crying. I really don't think he is tempermentally suited to it, or he is not developmentally ready. I know that statement flies in the face of what the CIO advice says as it should only get harder as he gets older.

I was waking every 2 hours to nurse the twins up until 2 weeks or so ago. I was pretty exhausted. Some wise people here on the board suggested that the babies didn't know how to self-soothe and that I pick my times to respond to them and then let them work it out. I decided that I would respond to them up until 11P and then again, from 3A on. I'd get at least 4 hours sleep! I have to say that this has generally worked. I do respond to them up til about 11P and they usually go straight through til 5:30A or so. The first night he fussed some, cried a little, but not the same cry as when he would cry for hours; he cried and fussed maybe 20 minutes or so. Second night was less. To be clear, I don't put him down awake. I haven't mastered that yet. I push him to sleep in the swing, pick him up once asleep, and transfer him to the crib. I have noticed him self soothing a bit more lately and I feel as though soon we'll be able to less hand holding to get him to sleep.

This is not any particular advice other than to try not to respond in the middle of the night. To try to gradually ease off of it. It has worked for me.

Sotto

PS. I have read HSHHC too and I try to follow the general guidelines regarding the timing of sleep and naps but have not been successful with the putting down awake (for my DS, DD is okay). Hang in there!

Edited to add: I think my success with the night sleeping is related to timing. I don't think my little guy was ready for it a month a go. I'd try it letting them sleep through the night a couple of nights and if doesn't work, wait a week and try again. My guys were little when they born, but full term, and I think this might have factored into it. He was just 14+ lbs at 6 months. He's bulked up a bit in the last month and is almost 16 lbs. I think that helps in some way...plus he's just maturing a bit more.

 

Our twins aren't born yet, but our son was (and still is some nights at 3.5). He could cry for hours without falling asleep-he had some serious stamina. We ended up just letting him sleep in our bed (he still woke up a lot, but went back down easier, and I didn't have to get up to deal with him). I got pregnant again when he was 9 months old (at the height of all this), and he and our daughter spent most of the night in our bed until about last spring when I got pregnant again. It wasn't necessarily comfortable or easy, but it was the best arrangement we could come up with. Now they both sleep most of the night in their own beds, and we'll see how it goes with twins. But it does get easier...also, 6 months is a time when a lot of things are happening (new food, crawling, etc) that may be disturbing his sleep. Good luck!

 

I call it "pseudo" CIO. Basically, I was like the silent mom in the corner, sitting in a chair. I would get up and go to them when they cried, I just didn't make it any "fun" for them. I never made it all happy and stuff. I never even looked them in the eye when I went to them so as not to communicate with them even that way. I did shush them and pat them and as soon as they stopped crying, I put them back down. Sometimes they would start crying again, but it got less and less when they got the hang of it. So, yes, they do some crying, but never alone.

Trying to teach them to sleep must be difficult with your daughter being young too. Do you keep them on similar nap schedules? I'm just trying to figure out how you could incorporate handling your daughter's matters with your two infants.

I read The Baby WHisperer. I thought that helped a lot for me. Following the E.A.S.Y. method helped a lot becuase it helped with regimine.

I don't know if this was any help....the best of luck...

 

I'm not sure how I feel about CIO but I have a feeling I'm going to have to do it with at least one of mine. We are really loosing our grip during the evening from 6pm to 11pm. I will tell you that if you read HSHHC you will be told to do some form of CIO. So if you are completely against it you may not find that book helpful. OTOH, I was against it until I read the book and learned the importance of fixing this problem and the success rates of those who do use CIO. I'm not warm to the idea. With my DS (13 years ago) I did not CIO and did not find anything else that worked either. To this day, he has trouble with sleep. I'm determined to do the hard work to make sure these two do not have that problem.

If you really don't ever want to CIO maybe read the No Cry Sleep Solution instead.

 

I'm reading this for help too. I'm pretty much in a similar situation with the boys tag teaming us! Yes, they are going through wild developmental changes and yes, they are teething but I'm about to toss in the towel. My hubby and I are going to sit down and reread our Dr. Sears sleep book and our Touchpoints book by Brazilton. I hope we can formulate a plan and get throught this. No sleep is horrible!! The babies look tired in the morning even though they act happy and fine. We have not done CIO and would also prefer not to. Ugh, it's hard with two and a 3 yr old!
Keep the advice coming.
Merijo

 

Mine are too young for CIO right now and I REALLY REALLY hope that we don't end up doing that. IF it was up to me only, we wouldn't ... but my husband is ready ASAP to let one of ours CIO. He thinks it is doing her a serious disservice to NOT teach her how to self-soothe by not MAKING her learn. ...Do I agree??? I don't know. I'm hoping for a better option. One of my girls will fall asleep "on her own" (quotations blc she has a paci) if you put her down drowsy but awake. The other, has not mastered this yet ...

The one that is doing well ... the thing that helped the MOST was that she learned how to suck her thumb. We have always swaddled them and I have started to transition them out of the swaddle so she has one arm out and she has (not all the time ... but a lot of the time) put herself back to sleep at night ... or even say, at 6AM ... by finding and sucking her thumb. I think it is mainly a developmental thing too. My other girl has a lot harder of a time. I don't think she would be able to put herself back to sleep ... last night I tried her with an arm out and she was fussing around and I went in and she was half-awake trying to suck her thumb too ... so I left and sat in my room listening to the monitor hoping she would work it out on her own ... but she just got more and more frustrated until I finally went in there and re-swaddled her with both arms in and gave her a paci and rocked her back to sleep and she did well for the rest of the night ... I think she woke up once to eat after that.

My ped says she is not a fan of CIO but to definatley NOT let them CIO until they have well-honed self-soothing tools ... so I told my hubby I don't feel comfortable letting Hannah CIO until she can consistantly suck her thumb or put her paci back in. I don't even know how comfortable I would be with it then ... but I refuse until then. Hopefully she will learn by then.

My other fear is that if you have one good sleeper and they share a room and you stop responding to the bad sleeper ... then you are harming your good sleeper by having her lie awake listening to her sister scream. Mine don't sleep through each others crying. Anyway, I don't know what the answer is.

I know I didn't help much. I hope you get good tips ... I'll be reading!

 

My girls were horrible sleepers when they were young. We discovered they had a dairy allergy and a soy intolerance. I had been taking fenugreek (spelling?) to produce more milk which is from the soy family. I didn't discover that until we had stopped breast feeding and had switched to formula. We tried several formulas and ended up with nutramigen which is a corn product. Alimentum contains soy. The first night they drank nutramigen they slept through the night. We reintroduced dairy when they turned one and they quit sleeping through the night and were wanting several bottles a night again. Every time they get dairy by accident, I know because they don't sleep. I would also recommend the baby whisperer books. We started at about 8 months and her pick up/put down method was perfect since I didn't want to use CIO. They did cry but I was with them constantly. We decided to try CIO one night and they took turns crying for over an hour. We finally went in and did pick up/put down and they were asleep within 20 minutes. My husband has always been really involved and got up everytime I did so we could each take one and get to bed quicker.

 

I have been loathe to CIO as well, although I do sometimes let them fuss themselves down for a nap, but I never let them get to full-on crying or leave them screaming.

they are 8.5months old (7 adjusted) and had been getting up three times each night to feed.; sometimes they go longer stretches after they first go down but they regularly wake exactly three hours after the last feed......a few days ago we started seeing if we could stretch out the feedings as part of a process of eliminating them. Basically when they wake we do a lot of tush patting til they get back to sleep. If they still fuss we pick up and rock, and only feed as a last resort.

I will say that it has been more difficult for the first few nights as they kept waking, but the time has stretched and tonight they both slept nearly 5.5 hours without ANY fussing. I was able to change danielle(SOAKY diaper!), hold her while patting Tessa,then put Danielle back to sleep! (talk about stress on my back!) T got up a few minutes later and I ended up feeding her after a diaper change.

It is now an hour later and D hasn't stirred. My sense is that there will be a lot of waking in the short run but i am hopeful that we will be able to stretch it out til they actually sleep through the night (a sort of unimaginable Nirvana...)

 

i am reading this for help too. Victoria is a bad sleeper and i have tried CIO but she gets worse and then i end up with two babies awake, so i dont do the CIO anymore. I sometimes choose the path of least resistance and put her in bed with me, she will self sooth if she sees me but still wakes up frequently. Although i manage to get more sleep this way, it is not a healty solution for hubby and me as he moves into the spare room then. I will try till i get a formula that works, so far nothing has had much effect except for her sleeping with me. Athena is a honey and sleeps 12 hours solid. And both girls have the same bedtime routine.

 

I have a bad sleeper!! It seems like the day he sleeps just fine while napping. Then 8:30 rolls around & the sun goes down...baddabing...he is cranky like he knows soon will be bedtime! My other one used to sleep 7 hours no problem since birth, but has since started waking every 3-4 hours to feed. I beleive it's because his little brother got him into this habit of waking. So if I give them their bedtime bottle at 8:30 Cole sleeps from 9-2 then wakes again at 6. But Cody my bad sleeper doesn't get to sound sleep until 12:30ish then he'll sleep a couple hours until waking again to eat. I get so upset until I finally get Cody to sound sleep. It's usually get him to sleep, put him down, 10 minutes back up, put hime to sleep again, and back up in 10 minutes. This goes on for a few hours until 12-12:30. I have finally resorted to letting him cry for a longer period until getting up. Usually, now I can tell a cry that will stop soon or a louder sader cry of I need you Mommy. Last night, he slept from 11:30-6:30...HALLELUJAH!! I was able to sleep!! And the DH even got up with Cole at 3 to feed him!! Good luck to you & all the rest of us suffering the twinfancy insomnia!! I just keep my head up as it will come a day when we all sleep in our home!!

 

I read HSHHC and I think it really helped to reframe my perception of this whole sleep thing. Babies need sleep and its our job to teach them how to sleep (and as my DH says "they *want* to sleep!").

For us, especially with Meara because she is my more 'spirited' child, its all about timing. Some days I feel like all I'm doing is putting them down for a nap, but thats what they need. In the morning they usually go down for a nap about an hour after they wake up. I used to think that was crazy, but its what they need. They are rarely up for longer than 2 hours at a time. With this there is minimal fussing, but some days are better than others.

For fussing, I let them fuss for a few minutes on their own because sometimes they just need to get out some extra energy before settling down. If its more than 5 minutes, I go in, reposition (because they are usually pressed up against the slats looking at each other!), and shush and pat, put on music, and then leave the room. If they are crying I know they need to sleep because they really only cry when they are tired. One thing that has really helped is to have a routine for naps as well as for bedtime. I think it helps them settle and know that we are getting ready to sleep.

For naps its: go into the nursery. I put toys in one crib and put one girl in there to play, while I change the other. Then I swap them out to change the second girl. Then I dim the lights, feed one in the rocker while the other quietly plays in the crib (and sometimes whines because she sees her bottle and wants it!). Then I burp and rock and lay one in the crib with the toys. Then I pick up baby2 and remove toys from crib. Feed, burp rock baby2 and then lay her in the crib and put on some soft music and leave the room.

I realize that I'm setting up a routine of bottle and sleep, but its what works right now. When they are no longer taking bottles I can see replacing that with a sippy and a story.

As I type out our nap routine it may seem really time consuming, but its actually not. The whole process takes 15-20 minutes max. Sometimes after I leave they fuss or play a bit, but then settle down to sleep.

This whole sleep thing is tough. GL!!!

 

My twins aren't here yet, but I am so happy that you did this post. I didn't CIO with either of my elder children, and I don't plan on doing it with my twins. I have to admit to some concerns (like you) at finding alternative resources for ideas and information. I am definitely a Dr. Sears proponent, and an AP Mommy. BTW - AP does not lead to whinny clingy children who are manipulative (as I have often heard)... I have a beautifully adjusted, slightly too independent teenage boy and a toddler who sleeps in his own bed through the night now. (Nicholas did sleep with us until he was a year old - my toddler, and it was my choice because I was EBF and he was huge and required lots of calories.)

Good luck! I look forward to hearing what some of the other ladies have to say.

Donna

 

So, here is our update.

Firstly, Max is now on meds for silent reflux. He is a happier baby altogether, and after I could see that I was ready to work on his sleep.
It was a rough (really rough) few days, but worth it. This is what I did: unswaddle. He had been breaking out of his swaddle a couple of times a night, and needing to be reswaddled - no fun. I knew he was ready to sleep without it, but he wouldn't settle without it. I discussed with his ped, and she said it would be fine to put him on his tummy now. So, out of the swaddle, onto the tummy. Problem was, he HATED being on his tummy. But he still wouldn't sleep on his back unswaddled (he turns into a baby seal when he is tired - flipping his arms and legs like mad). So, I persisted on the tummy. Which meant that I spent a lot of one night (and several hours straight in the evening) patting him on the bum, replacing his dummy, pushing the button on his aquarium and settling his head back down... he was mad! And yes, there was a lot of crying. But he didn't cry alone - I stayed the whole time and shushed and sang to him. The second day he went down for naps with minimal fussing - I had to go in a couple of times for a pat and a dummy, but no real crying. Going down for night took a few more nights to settle down, and he still fusses more than during the day, but I just keep going to him. Lots of bum-patting. And he is only waking once at night now!
I would have liked to avoid letting him cry so much - but with two babies I needed to get him sleeping better. And I do feel more positive about it because at least I didn't leave him alone to cry.

QUOTE
I read HSHHC and I think it really helped to reframe my perception of this whole sleep thing. Babies need sleep and its our job to teach them how to sleep (and as my DH says "they *want* to sleep!").


I'm sorry, but I think that is a crock. Babies around the world "learn" to sleep just fine. The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young. Western society is so divorced from our natural rhythms that of course babies have problems conforming to our expectations. In places where babies are worn (in slings etc) all day, colic and the evening fussy period are almost non-existant. We expect our babies to be independant practically from birth - and look where it gets us. If our culture was more supportive of families, and put more emphasis on nuturing our young, women wouldn't feel so much pressure to have their babies "learn" to sleep alone and through the night, and "learn" to be independant from borth. And I'm not saying that I am better - I feel the pressure too - because we live in nuclear units now, the mother (usually) has so much to accomplish during the day (cleaning, shopping, other childcare, work) that they can not babywear, nurse on demand, co-sleep etc without making some serious lifestyle changes. We don't have a village to help us, or extened family live-in, so we do need our babies to need us less. So we try to justify it by telling ourselves that our babies "need" it, and that it is for their own good, when really it is for the parents's good.

 

QUOTE
I'm sorry, but I think that is a crock. Babies around the world "learn" to sleep just fine. The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young. Western society is so divorced from our natural rhythms that of course babies have problems conforming to our expectations. In places where babies are worn (in slings etc) all day, colic and the evening fussy period are almost non-existant. We expect our babies to be independant practically from birth - and look where it gets us. If our culture was more supportive of families, and put more emphasis on nuturing our young, women wouldn't feel so much pressure to have their babies "learn" to sleep alone and through the night, and "learn" to be independant from borth. And I'm not saying that I am better - I feel the pressure too - because we live in nuclear units now, the mother (usually) has so much to accomplish during the day (cleaning, shopping, other childcare, work) that they can not babywear, nurse on demand, co-sleep etc without making some serious lifestyle changes. We don't have a village to help us, or extened family live-in, so we do need our babies to need us less. So we try to justify it by telling ourselves that our babies "need" it, and that it is for their own good, when really it is for the parents's good.


I can't say I agree with that. I don't think babies enjoy fragmented sleep any more than adults do. It is natural for babies to need feedings through the night, and I have no problem feeding my babies whenever they're hungry, even if that means getting up a few times a night. But if they're waking frequently just because they haven't figured out how to deal with the phases of lighter sleep that we all cycle through, or if they're waking frequently to play when they really need to sleep, then it is the parent's job to help them sleep. This doesn't necessarily mean CIO, but CIO is one decent option. "Rewarding" waking to play with lots of elaborate soothing efforts could make the problem much worse for some babies.

About babywearing, I am a huge fan of the Baby Bjorn. It's a great way to keep a baby happy while I get some things done, and a great way for DH and I to take babies out for walks when it's too cold for the stroller. But I don't think there's anything so great about constant babywearing. For one thing, it's a great way to destroy mom's back. I have a permanent backache from dealing with my two 17-pounders all day, and that's without wearing them around all the time. Also, babies may seem to sleep well when worn, but it is actually lower-quality sleep than motionless sleep - like the difference between sleeping in the car and sleeping in bed. Babies will not be as well-rested, and that's not good for their health.

I don't think co-sleeping is the answer to everyone's problems either. If it works, great, nothing wrong with it. But for a lot of people, it would be heavy on the "co" and light on the "sleep." I know my babies wouldn't get a good rest sharing a bed with two adults, and DH and I wouldn't be able to sleep at all. (And if you buy into the AP thing about needing, say, 3 hrs of sleep at a stretch being horribly selfish, well, just see how good a parent you can be during the day without it!) My babies really need their own space. They slept in a crib right next to our bed from the beginning, and now one sleeps there and one in another room (had to separate them because they were waking each other up), but NOBODY would be sleeping well if we shared a bed.

Which leads me to my biggest beef with attachment parenting: it assumes that all babies are and should be extroverts. The fundamental assumption is that babies want to be with adults all the time, do not want any independence, and do not need downtime. There's also the assumption that all people should be extroverts - like the argument that pacifiers, loveys, etc, are wrong because they substitute objects for human connection - which assumes that other people should be a person's primary source of comfort and fulfillment. Well, what if you're an introvert, and you deeply enjoy your close relationships, but deeply need alone time to function and charge your batteries? I think babies (some, anyway) have an introvert side too, and NEED to have some time alone to regroup. Mine definitely do. If I tried to soothe/rock/wear them to sleep, they would end up screaming, because when they're tired, they are overstimulated, and being alone helps them calm down. They just don't want to deal with anyone anymore (and as an introvert myself I sure know the feeling sometimes!).

I am also very wary of this sort of misty idealization of "other cultures" and nose-wrinkling at "Western society." If you ever live in another culture, believe me, you'll see that it's not all roses and wisdom and "noble savages."

 

I have 4 kids, 3 of whom would be considered "bad" sleepers. We have never cio but we tried everything else. :laughing: My 5 month old has been sttn since about 5 weeks. Who knows why. I truly think think that like any skill kids learn to fall asleep alone when they are ready. Our job is to set the stage to make that easy for them. My 7 year old made huge improvements at age 4 and then again 6 months ago when we put him in a sleeping bag. Think swaddling for a child! For my other 5 month old, we've been encouraging her to fall asleep "alone with out nursing" but she is in our bed and snuggled up close me. Each child is an individual.

If we substituted "reading" with "sleeping" in this conversation it would be less emotional and easier for people to be accepting of differences. My 7 year old is a poor reader. I don't force him to read outloud more, but encourage him to follow along while I read. My 4 year old is a decent reader. She just "got it" sooner, not because I pushed it more. The same thing with sleep- we just need to be patient until they figure it out.

Now to deal with the parental exhaustion in a society that expects babies to be fully :icon_eek: sleep independent by 6 weeks........... That's another story

 

QUOTE(Mimsy @ Dec 4 2007, 03:11 AM) [snapback]519881[/snapback]
I'm sorry, but I think that is a crock. Babies around the world "learn" to sleep just fine. The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young.


I'm not talking about small newborns that must wake up to eat throughout the night, I'm talking about older infants that are learning to sooth themselves back to sleep when they wake up in the middle of the night because they don't need extra nutrition throughout the night. We all wake up in the middle of the night several times because we go in and out of different phases of sleep. However, when I wake up I don't need to go get myself a snack to calm myself to go back to sleep (or need my Dh to rub my back). My kiddos didn't sleep through until almost 8 months old. But before that I don't think they could have because they needed that extra bottle. Am I expecting too much from them because I want them to get a good night's sleep? I don't think so. When my girls wake up crying I know they didn't get enough sleep. When they wake up smiley and laughing (almost every morning) its because they are refreshed from getting enough sleep. You asked for opinions on how to get your baby to sleep through without cio. I shared my experiences with HSHHC, but clearly that wasn't the answer you were looking for. All I have to say is that most of what that book said has worked very well for me and my two reflux babies... and that was without any CIO.

GL with your kids.

 

QUOTE(Mimsy @ Dec 4 2007, 08:11 AM) [snapback]519881[/snapback]
I'm sorry, but I think that is a crock. Babies around the world "learn" to sleep just fine. The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young. Western society is so divorced from our natural rhythms that of course babies have problems conforming to our expectations. In places where babies are worn (in slings etc) all day, colic and the evening fussy period are almost non-existant. We expect our babies to be independant practically from birth - and look where it gets us. If our culture was more supportive of families, and put more emphasis on nuturing our young, women wouldn't feel so much pressure to have their babies "learn" to sleep alone and through the night, and "learn" to be independant from borth. And I'm not saying that I am better - I feel the pressure too - because we live in nuclear units now, the mother (usually) has so much to accomplish during the day (cleaning, shopping, other childcare, work) that they can not babywear, nurse on demand, co-sleep etc without making some serious lifestyle changes. We don't have a village to help us, or extened family live-in, so we do need our babies to need us less. So we try to justify it by telling ourselves that our babies "need" it, and that it is for their own good, when really it is for the parents's good.


I guess I dont understand the purpose of your original post?? You asked for personal experiences and that is what you got from a bunch of "been there done that women." If you believe that your babies dont "need" sleep, then why do you have a problem getting up all the time at night?

 

QUOTE(Mimsy @ Dec 4 2007, 03:11 AM) [snapback]519881[/snapback]
I'm sorry, but I think that is a crock. Babies around the world "learn" to sleep just fine. The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young. Western society is so divorced from our natural rhythms that of course babies have problems conforming to our expectations. In places where babies are worn (in slings etc) all day, colic and the evening fussy period are almost non-existant. We expect our babies to be independant practically from birth - and look where it gets us. If our culture was more supportive of families, and put more emphasis on nuturing our young, women wouldn't feel so much pressure to have their babies "learn" to sleep alone and through the night, and "learn" to be independant from borth. And I'm not saying that I am better - I feel the pressure too - because we live in nuclear units now, the mother (usually) has so much to accomplish during the day (cleaning, shopping, other childcare, work) that they can not babywear, nurse on demand, co-sleep etc without making some serious lifestyle changes. We don't have a village to help us, or extened family live-in, so we do need our babies to need us less. So we try to justify it by telling ourselves that our babies "need" it, and that it is for their own good, when really it is for the parents's good.


Wow...why did you ask then?

You do in fact live in the western world and unless your making a move soon, so will your baby. It may help to help him adapt to his culture rather than the culture of a part of the world he doesn't live in.

 

QUOTE(girls! @ Dec 4 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]520474[/snapback]
. It may help to help him adapt to his culture rather than the culture of a part of the world he doesn't live in.


I'd rather help change the culture of the world I live in. To encourage our children to go against their biology to fit into society seems quite defeatist.

 

QUOTE(Username @ Dec 4 2007, 03:33 PM) [snapback]520646[/snapback]
I'd rather help change the culture of the world I live in. To encourage our children to go against their biology to fit into society seems quite defeatist.



Okay, well I'm not sure why I'm replying to this because I want this forum to continue to be a help to me and not a place to bash others views. I think that's great if you want to change the society but don't come to a forum like this and ask for experiences and then tell one of the gracious responders to your post that you "think it's a crock" how she responded and another a "defeatist".

Furthermore, we may not have it all figured out over here in the western world but we do have some very well adjusted people who have gone on to be great members of our society and they were raised with the values we are discussing so we aren't doing everything wrong. If you have a view of how you'd like things to be and it's different than our culture then raise your family that way and don't solicit the help and opinions of others in the society you claim to want to change. It seems you are looking for a debate, not help. If that's the case word your post that way so that unsuspecting well-wishers don't fall into your debate while thinking they are generously sharing their experience. :winking0009:

 

Mimsy, I'm glad you had success with the bum-patting. It sounds like things are MUCH better now.

 

QUOTE(Mimsy @ Dec 4 2007, 08:11 AM) [snapback]519881[/snapback]
The fact is that in the Western world we expect babies to sleep in a manner that is not natural for primate babies - alone and through the night. We need to "train" them because we are insisting that they conform to sleep expectations that are not natural for primate young.



You lost me at "primate young". I'm not raising a monkey. I'm raising a human who can master the art of sleeping at a reasonable age. The reason so many other cultures have a "family" bed is because they don't have any other bed to sleep in. The reason "primate young" don't sleep through the night is because they'll spend half the next day napping! That argument is one of the most *interesting* I've heard yet.

Reyna

 

I just wanted to say that you are not alone. My James started out as a great sleeper. From one month to about five months I could just pop him down in his crib (swaddled), give him his paci, and he would drift off to sleep without a worry. I used to call him my "dreamer" while my other son, Evan, was very difficult. He was a colicky newborn and he needed rocking, soothing, shushing, paci replacements...he needed tonnes of support and I gave it to him. Between four and five months something started to change around our house. Evan started sleeping soundly (12 hours!) while James started waking at night and being more and more difficult to put down. I couldn't blame this on spoiling him as a newborn (if anything, and if it's even possible, I spoiled Evan NOT James) and I knew it wasn't because I didn't have a good routine (we've done a great bedtime routine, consistent naps, avoided overtiredness, etc. since the boys were a few weeks old), so I thought it must be teething. I soothed him every time he needed it...and here I am four months later with a 9-month-old who can't sleep more than a couple of hours at a night. I haven't had a decent stretch of sleep in months. I spent hours every evening and night rocking, patting, shushing...and my boys share a room so James often wakes Evan. Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your post, I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone and that I too once swore I'd never let my babies CIO. Good luck. There is one book I know of for gentle sleep solutions and it's called THE NO-CRY SLEEP SOLUTION. Many people have found it helpful but I found most of the tips impractical for twins. Maybe I can save you some time reading that book!

 

I didn't read all replys as the girls are starting to fuss in the background, so time is limited. But our girls started sleeping through the night pretty early. DH is a very heavy sleeper so doesn't hear them at all unless they are fully awake and screaming. He cares for them 2 nights a week when I am working mids. When I am home at night during the rest of the week, I turn a fan on near my head so I don't hear them unless they are fully awake and let me know they are I guess that is a version of CIO, but not really. I always got up when I heard them. But this gave them a way to fall back to sleep if they weren't really awake rather then us going to them and waking them up starting a bad cycle/habit.

 

CIO is the hardest part of parenting. I hated to hear mine cry in this manner. However, sometimes it is the best way to help them learn to sleep. I feel your frustration and remember those days so well.

When our twins were 3 months old, I learned I was expecting another set of twins. My older ones were getting up every 1 1/2 - 2 hours and never sleeping through. It was bad. We hired a nurse to help put for 2 nights when we were at our wits end. She said to let them CIO and I thought I would go nuts. However the first time she left them, she timed them. What seemed like an eternity was only like 1 minute. She said most babies need 10 minutes to CIO before considering going in.

We also read the book "Baby Wise". It had some useful tips as well. I will tell you though, I talked to everyone I could, read all I could, but still had trouble getting one of ours down. He would cry for hours upon end (and still wakes up wanting me some nights and he is 2 1/2). When I was 7 months pregnant with the second set, I would have to call my neighbor to help get him settled down ( my husband works second shift). I thought I would never get to sleep again.

If you ever read Dr. Ferber's book on sleep habits, keep in mind he recently changed some of the ideas he had in his book. He recently said letting a baby CIO is not always the best option (althought sometimes the only one). Our doctor always suggested getting earplugs! Now there is an idea!!!

One last thought, have you tried putting them down with a stuffed animal or blanket? I heard this sometimes helps/

Good luck and I hope you sleep better soon.

 

QUOTE(fuchsiagroan @ Dec 4 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]519960[/snapback]
Well, what if you're an introvert, and you deeply enjoy your close relationships, but deeply need alone time to function and charge your batteries? I think babies (some, anyway) have an introvert side too, and NEED to have some time alone to regroup. Mine definitely do. If I tried to soothe/rock/wear them to sleep, they would end up screaming, because when they're tired, they are overstimulated, and being alone helps them calm down. They just don't want to deal with anyone anymore (and as an introvert myself I sure know the feeling sometimes!).


Thank you for pointing that out "Fushia". My Lily definilty needs/craves her alone time and actually stops crying when we put her into her crib for sleep. I do not believe that most babies are wired this way but, some are and this needs to be respected. I spent the first 8 weeks of my daughter's life holding her while she cried and not understanding why should would not nap. Once I finally realized that she NEEDED to be put down in her crib in order to relax, we ALL were much happier. I only wish I would have realized this about her earlier. I can only imagine how overstimulated and miserable she was the while I was trying to rock her to sleep. All babies are different and some, are really different!

Amy