ID or NOT?

Discussion in 'The First Year' started by Astrid, Sep 3, 2008.

?

What do you think?

  1. Yep, now that I see the features seperately.

    0 vote(s)
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  2. Nope, don't believe it...the report on placentas HAS to be WRONG!

    0 vote(s)
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  1. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    Ok ladies...the long awaited photos. I have more if necessary. I mixed them up so if it is ear 1, that doesn't mean it is nose 1 & eye 1 on the same girls. I have to say that I am quite surprise at how alike they are when you break down their features but that is just my opinion. I really, truly believe in my heart that they are ID & that their heads are shaped so differently that it affects their whole face. The history is that the pathology report on the placentas showed only 2, baby A & B shared 1 placenta. It was not fused. The girls are also O- blood type & were virtually the same weight at birth. Let me know what your opinion is!

    Ears:
    I tried to get the 2nd 1 focused but couldn't to save my life!
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...atures/Ear1.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...atures/Ear2.jpg

    Eyes:
    This 1 surprised me! Very similar IMHO.
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...atures/Eye1.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...atures/Eye2.jpg

    Noses:
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...tures/Nose1.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...tures/Nose2.jpg

    Head Shots:
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...es/P9030013.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...es/P9030019.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...es/P9030022.jpg
     
  2. lharrison1

    lharrison1 Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    They look alike to me! They are beautiful!
     
  3. 4kidsmomexpectingtwins

    4kidsmomexpectingtwins Well-Known Member

    I have known 3 sets of ID twins in my life, and I would have to say yours are definately ID. There is going to be a small amount of difference in them, just because that's the way it works. For example, a set of 7 year olds I know, one has a larger head than his brother, but they are definately ID.

    They are really cute BTW!
     
  4. ddancerd1

    ddancerd1 Well-Known Member

    i didn't think so at first, but now that i see the features i am thinking ID!
    our poor kids... we take all these pictures of them and post them on the internet for others to study lol (mine are ID, but i still keep asking cuz i just don't think so!)
     
  5. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ddancerd1 @ Sep 3 2008, 10:30 AM) [snapback]960470[/snapback]
    i didn't think so at first, but now that i see the features i am thinking ID!
    our poor kids... we take all these pictures of them and post them on the internet for others to study lol (mine are ID, but i still keep asking cuz i just don't think so!)


    LOL! You are so right...poor babies! They get strutinized so much!
     
  6. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    HERE I AM AND HERE GOES NOTHING.......................................................FRATERNAL FRATERNAL FRATERNAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I AM POSITIVE! POSITIVE.

    NEVER BEEN MORE SURE... IF I'M WRONG, IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME AND I'LL QUIT MY "JOB" OF DOING THIS!!

    Thanks for doing that! Now I'm definite :)

    cute cute cute too! Very!
     
  7. pamallhoney

    pamallhoney Well-Known Member

    Geez that was still hard, but I'll say ID...and I'm so glad you're testing. I wonder what ivfbound078 is going to say. I see she is reading this thread too right now.

    LOL I guess she posted before me!
     
  8. pamallhoney

    pamallhoney Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 11:00 AM) [snapback]960518[/snapback]
    HERE I AM AND HERE GOES NOTHING.......................................................FRATERNAL FRATERNAL FRATERNAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I AM POSITIVE! POSITIVE.

    NEVER BEEN MORE SURE... IF I'M WRONG, IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME AND I'LL QUIT MY "JOB" OF DOING THIS!!

    Thanks for doing that! Now I'm definite :)

    cute cute cute too! Very!

    YOU CAN'T QUIT...we'll still love you if you're wrong, BUT if you're right we'll have to come up with a new name for you.
    Super Duper Twin Diagnoser! I'm sure someone we'll be able to come up with a more creative name LOL, but you get the picture.
     
  9. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 11:00 AM) [snapback]960518[/snapback]
    HERE I AM AND HERE GOES NOTHING.......................................................FRATERNAL FRATERNAL FRATERNAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I AM POSITIVE! POSITIVE.

    NEVER BEEN MORE SURE... IF I'M WRONG, IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME AND I'LL QUIT MY "JOB" OF DOING THIS!!

    Thanks for doing that! Now I'm definite :)

    cute cute cute too! Very!


    Can you tell me why you think so? What were the indicators? Just curious b/c when I broke it down like that, I can honestly say I don't know what part would go w/ what girl.
     
  10. jjzollman

    jjzollman Well-Known Member

    I really have no idea! There seem to be some similarities...but there is also something about them that looks enough different...but they sure are adorable! And hats off to you for bfing and pumping for your triplets! I'm doing it with my twins (mainly pumping now b/c of latch issues) and it is hard enough to squeeze it in with just 2 babies - I cannot imagine 3!
     
  11. pamallhoney

    pamallhoney Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(Astrid @ Sep 3 2008, 11:03 AM) [snapback]960526[/snapback]
    Can you tell me why you think so? What were the indicators? Just curious b/c when I broke it down like that, I can honestly say I don't know what part would go w/ what girl.

    Yes, let's see how she does this :)
     
  12. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    I cannot explain it but to me they just dont look very much alike!!! In the pics of them TOGETHER.. they just don't look ID to me!! They also have pretty different ears. Similar eyes but not the same. My boys eyes are EXACTLY the same--- would NEVER know whose were whose.

    Noses are the same but sibs have same noses usually too.

    When I see ID's I know it. It's just "something" that I either sEE or don't. I do not think they are identical. They look like two very different babies to me.

    Again, I'll feel like a STUPID idiot if I'm wrong but I really don't think I am!!

    I CANNot wait for you to get the test results!!!! Then you all can fire me if I'm incorrect!! I'll hang up my boots!
     
  13. pamallhoney

    pamallhoney Well-Known Member

  14. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(pamallhoney @ Sep 3 2008, 11:13 AM) [snapback]960548[/snapback]
    Here's an example of my boys eyes and ears. I don't know if they are ID for sure, but I would think so.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1075...mp;id=553326734
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1075...mp;id=553326734

    Alike, but different
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1161...mp;id=553326734

    I'm not trying to overtake your thread, but I just wanted you to see a picture of my boys eyes and ears...and then see how different their head shapes are.


    What cuties! I can see how the are different but look ID to me.
     
  15. Jenn G

    Jenn G Well-Known Member

    I'm at work right now and I'm not able to view the pics you posted, but honestly, those pictures mean nothing if you have the pathology report to back it up. If they said one placenta, then they are id. My sister and I are ID, her girls are ID and my boys are ID, but you have never met ID twins that look LESS alike- seriously. Just because you're ID, it doesn't mean all of your features are ID, too. It means your DNA is ID (and there are even reports that dispute that), but regardless- if you were told your girls were ID, by professionals (no offense ivfbound :) ) I would go with that. I never had my boys tested because we could see at their 6 week u/s they were shaing the same space. My sister and I were tested in our 30's because we never knew for sure. Her girls were test on their first birthday because they were di/di but had the same blood type and they're ID... Anyway, sorry for being long winded, but my vote is ID! Congratulations on your triplets!!
     
  16. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(Astrid @ Sep 3 2008, 11:15 AM) [snapback]960551[/snapback]
    What cuties! I can see how the are different but look ID to me.



    See.. THERE I get the "feeling". I knew the moment I saw Pam's that they were ID for sure. Never even thought twice. Their eyes and faces are identical. Ears also. There is no deviation. Pam, you are soooo funny! They are SOOOOO ID it's not even funny! You with your "I don't know for sure" HA!

    They are SOOOOOOOO darn cute too! I got a new computer last nite or I'd post pics of mine! I'll take some today to show you!

    I love all of your babies.. Twins, Triplets, ID's, Frats!! WHATEVER! They are all just the cutest!

    How soon are we getting those results Astrid???!! I'll be on pins and needles!! :) Again, thanks sooooo much for taking those pics!! We really appreciate it!
     
  17. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(Jenn G @ Sep 3 2008, 11:17 AM) [snapback]960558[/snapback]
    I'm at work right now and I'm not able to view the pics you posted, but honestly, those pictures mean nothing if you have the pathology report to back it up. If they said one placenta, then they are id. My sister and I are ID, her girls are ID and my boys are ID, but you have never met ID twins that look LESS alike- seriously. Just because you're ID, it doesn't mean all of your features are ID, too. It means your DNA is ID (and there are even reports that dispute that), but regardless- if you were told your girls were ID, by professionals (no offense ivfbound :) ) I would go with that. I never had my boys tested because we could see at their 6 week u/s they were shaing the same space. My sister and I were tested in our 30's because we never knew for sure. Her girls were test on their first birthday because they were di/di but had the same blood type and they're ID... Anyway, sorry for being long winded, but my vote is ID! Congratulations on your triplets!!



    I agree with her. BUT you asked... and of course I'm not a Doctor BUT docs CAN be wrong... Sara74 can tell you that!

    Anyway, I'm sure your docs are right.. but you did ask the question, Astrid, so that's why this whole thing started. Astrid asked us :) And of course I am not a professional LOL!! These are opinions only so let us have fun!!

    Plus, it's not really a huge deal.. It's fun to play this game :)

    Either way, I'll learn something new!
     
  18. pamallhoney

    pamallhoney Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 11:23 AM) [snapback]960572[/snapback]
    I agree with her. BUT you asked... and of course I'm not a Doctor BUT docs CAN be wrong... Sara74 can tell you that!

    I'm curious what is Sarah74's story?
     
  19. ferfischer

    ferfischer Well-Known Member

    My girls were mo/di and shared a placenta - they look very different, IMO. Their head shapes are totally different. But, they are ID!

    You know, if you have an early u/s, like 8 weeks or something, we could also tell chorionicity - are both babies in the same black blob?

    Good luck with your test! I can see how they look different, but if it was one placenta, then you know!
     
  20. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(Jenn G @ Sep 3 2008, 11:17 AM) [snapback]960558[/snapback]
    I'm at work right now and I'm not able to view the pics you posted, but honestly, those pictures mean nothing if you have the pathology report to back it up. If they said one placenta, then they are id. My sister and I are ID, her girls are ID and my boys are ID, but you have never met ID twins that look LESS alike- seriously. Just because you're ID, it doesn't mean all of your features are ID, too. It means your DNA is ID (and there are even reports that dispute that), but regardless- if you were told your girls were ID, by professionals (no offense ivfbound :) ) I would go with that. I never had my boys tested because we could see at their 6 week u/s they were shaing the same space. My sister and I were tested in our 30's because we never knew for sure. Her girls were test on their first birthday because they were di/di but had the same blood type and they're ID... Anyway, sorry for being long winded, but my vote is ID! Congratulations on your triplets!!


    See, that is what I think too. I just don't see how my doc would be wrong b/c she is sooo good at this & she even believed the report. IF for some reason the report is wrong which is VERY possible, then I am going to be stumped. How could there be only 1 placenta for 2 babies & them not be identical? I know about fused placentas but I even asked about that & they weren't fused.
     
  21. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 11:19 AM) [snapback]960562[/snapback]
    See.. THERE I get the "feeling". I knew the moment I saw Pam's that they were ID for sure. Never even thought twice. Their eyes and faces are identical. Ears also. There is no deviation. Pam, you are soooo funny! They are SOOOOO ID it's not even funny! You with your "I don't know for sure" HA!

    They are SOOOOOOOO darn cute too! I got a new computer last nite or I'd post pics of mine! I'll take some today to show you!

    I love all of your babies.. Twins, Triplets, ID's, Frats!! WHATEVER! They are all just the cutest!

    How soon are we getting those results Astrid???!! I'll be on pins and needles!! :) Again, thanks sooooo much for taking those pics!! We really appreciate it!


    I just ordered the test from DNA Solutions so as soon as I get it, I'll be swabbing their cheeks & putting it in the mail. Hopefully by the end of the month????

    BTW, I would LOVE to see your babies!
     
  22. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    So.. they actually did a pathology report ON the placentas?? Did you specifically request that? Usually they do not routinely do that. They just say what they SEE in front of them.. BUT if they did an actual report from pathology and it is truly ONE placenta, then YES they have to be identical. There is no other explanation and you do not need to order the test.

    I guess I didn't see the part where you said they did a Path report ON the placentas?? How did you know to request one of those?

    And they were not in the same black blob feri, I asked her that yesterday!! LOL. You're the other id specialist!! And I think your girls look ID too.

    Remember US ID Moms never think ours look alike. That still cracks me up every time!

    Sarah was told that it was ONE placenta.. and believed they were ID but did a DNA test and they were FRAT!! The Docs were wrong.

    Anywhoo.... I guess I was wrong!! ID's that look different.. that's COOL! I'm down w/ that too! LOL!
     
  23. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    click on link to youtube on bottom of my posts....i have 200 vids of the boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    will get pics today!!
     
  24. ferfischer

    ferfischer Well-Known Member

    I'm also very curious as to what you find out...

    Also, my ID twins were 1lb different at birth - and are 4 lbs different now, so that really doesn't factor in too much.

    Good luck - and if you can dig up an early u/s pic - we could figure it out - if they were di/di, then I'm not sure. I think maybe fraternal too, except O- is a pretty rare blood type - is that what you and DH have too? If so, then all your kids probably have it, right?

    Jenny
     
  25. ferfischer

    ferfischer Well-Known Member

    Ok - after further thought - I'm changing my vote - I vote frat too.

    If they did not share a "black blob" in your early u/s photos, then they can NOT have shared a placenta. They still "could" be ID, but I don't think so either. I'm anxious to see what your test says (the blood type being rare does complicate things, IMO)

    I think I'm one of the only ones that things mommymeg's twins are frat too.

    They are SO cute though, and I agree with others, you're an awesome trip mommy! I have trouble with "just two!"
     
  26. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 11:39 AM) [snapback]960602[/snapback]
    So.. they actually did a pathology report ON the placentas?? Did you specifically request that? Usually they do not routinely do that. They just say what they SEE in front of them.. BUT if they did an actual report from pathology and it is truly ONE placenta, then YES they have to be identical. There is no other explanation and you do not need to order the test.

    I guess I didn't see the part where you said they did a Path report ON the placentas?? How did you know to request one of those?

    And they were not in the same black blob feri, I asked her that yesterday!! LOL. You're the other id specialist!! And I think your girls look ID too.

    Remember US ID Moms never think ours look alike. That still cracks me up every time!

    Sarah was told that it was ONE placenta.. and believed they were ID but did a DNA test and they were FRAT!! The Docs were wrong.

    Anywhoo.... I guess I was wrong!! ID's that look different.. that's COOL! I'm down w/ that too! LOL!


    Well, the story is that after they took the placentas out, my peri noticed that there were only 2 so she ordered the pathology report on them. As it turns out, there were definitely ONLY 2. I was as surprised & shocked as everyone else, LMAO! I asked if it was possible that the placentas were fused & she said they were not. My peri is 1 of the top doc's for HOMs in Houston & is normally very thorough. As a matter of fact, the 1st time we met w/ her & showed her a picture of the u/s, she asked if A & B were identical b/c of their placement. Look at this u/s of A & B together.

    She thought that was a thick wall dividing the placenta.
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...ets/BabyAB2.jpg
    http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/gix...lets/Baby_B.jpg

    Anywho, we told all this to the kids' pedi & asked if we could do a DNA test & she asked us why & I told her for peace of mind. She said if the pathology report came back w/ 2 placentas then the girls had to be ID & there was no need to challenge it. I am going to go crazy for the next few weeks until we get the test back. ARG!
     
  27. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ferfischer @ Sep 3 2008, 11:56 AM) [snapback]960631[/snapback]
    I'm also very curious as to what you find out...

    Also, my ID twins were 1lb different at birth - and are 4 lbs different now, so that really doesn't factor in too much.

    Good luck - and if you can dig up an early u/s pic - we could figure it out - if they were di/di, then I'm not sure. I think maybe fraternal too, except O- is a pretty rare blood type - is that what you and DH have too? If so, then all your kids probably have it, right?

    Jenny


    Nope, DH is not O-. He is +, not sure what type though. That makes it all the more interesting, don't you think?
     
  28. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    My son is not O- either.
     
  29. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

  30. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ferfischer @ Sep 3 2008, 12:06 PM) [snapback]960651[/snapback]
    Ok - after further thought - I'm changing my vote - I vote frat too.

    If they did not share a "black blob" in your early u/s photos, then they can NOT have shared a placenta. They still "could" be ID, but I don't think so either. I'm anxious to see what your test says (the blood type being rare does complicate things, IMO)

    I think I'm one of the only ones that things mommymeg's twins are frat too.

    They are SO cute though, and I agree with others, you're an awesome trip mommy! I have trouble with "just two!"


    There can be mono/di twins though, right? I mean you can have ID that have seperate placentas & sacs, share a placenta but not a sac & then share a placenta & sac from everything I have read about ID. See, I think that IF the girls are indeed ID, then they probably split very early on, early enough to have had a thick wall between them but late enough to share a placenta.


    QUOTE(ivfbound078 @ Sep 3 2008, 12:16 PM) [snapback]960672[/snapback]
    Here are my boys..

    http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome...mp;linkid=link5

    And that US pic tells us nothing.. It needs to be earlier.


    I don't have any earlier than that. The 1st u/s was at 7 wks.
     
  31. ferfischer

    ferfischer Well-Known Member

    It looks to me like they all had their own "black blobs" - the 7w u/s would be awesome to see...

    And you're right, they could still be ID, even if they each had their own placenta. 30% of ID twins are di/di (own placenta, own sac)

    Truthfully, the chorionicity (as in monochorionic = one placenta) you can see VERY early, because they would share a gestational sac, and if they share the same chorion, they will have the same placenta. But you can determine chorionicity before you even see a placenta... I'm wondering about your placenta path report too, if they all had different chorions. It is pretty clear the different spaces, even in that photo you posted. In our case, they couldn't even FIND the membrane between the babies until 16 weeks, and then, just for a second... they always looked like they were in the same space.

    For instance, here is my 7w6d u/s - you can see both babies in the same black blob - this is the same chorion, which will then be the same placenta. Did yours look like this for babies a/b?
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/colofisch/us2.jpg

    But, in short - they could definitely still be ID. But, if I were betting, I might not put my money on it. Totally do the DNA test though, I would have to know! Especially with the blood type thing. That's such a cool blood type to have, since it is a universal donor! How fun this is!

    I will probably eat my words on this one. I should add that my ID twins look identical to my DS - they definitely look alike, and they definitely look like siblings, but separated by 2 years!

    ETA: I don't think it is possible to have a "thick" wall, and truly share a placenta. The "thick wall" is the chorionic sac + amniotic sac - so that's why if there is a "very thin" wall, it is because the share the chorion, and there is not a chorion separating them. Also, mommymeg was told her boys were sharing a placenta, but then found it was fused. if they have their own black blobs in early us, then they have separate placentas. they can only share if they share a black blob.
     
  32. bebedoc

    bebedoc Well-Known Member

    I think they're identical. There's going to be similiarities and differences in ID and Frat twins, no matter what. My girls are ID (were mono/di and seen at 5w3d) but you can tell them apart immediately. They have similar features but one has more hair and a skinnier face. I think the pathology report is right!
     
  33. bebedoc

    bebedoc Well-Known Member

    Just wanted to share a few pictures to show how ID twins can look similar yet different.

    Here are my girls. Keira's face is skinnier and she has more hair. Carly's face is more round and she has shorter hair.


    Birth

    4 weeks old

    6 weeks old
     
  34. lianyla

    lianyla Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(bebedoc @ Sep 3 2008, 12:54 PM) [snapback]960755[/snapback]
    Just wanted to share a few pictures to show how ID twins can look similar yet different.

    Here are my girls. Keira's face is skinnier and she has more hair. Carly's face is more round and she has shorter hair.
    Birth

    4 weeks old

    6 weeks old


    That's not a good example cuz they look EXACTLY alike LOLOL!! This is a different story. Her babies were NOT in the same sac!!

    I am STUMPED for real here. Also, SHOCKED that any Peri would say "Are they ID?" just by looking at an u/s that clearly has a large divider!! They usually don't say things like that because they cannot tell when the membrane is that thick. And esp when there are 3 in there! It wouldn't really matter much "where they were placed" cuz there are 3!! Not a ton of spare room to be "placed.."

    Alright, rambling! Did you guys think mine look ID??
     
  35. Astrid

    Astrid Well-Known Member

    QUOTE(ferfischer @ Sep 3 2008, 12:29 PM) [snapback]960692[/snapback]
    It looks to me like they all had their own "black blobs" - the 7w u/s would be awesome to see...

    And you're right, they could still be ID, even if they each had their own placenta. 30% of ID twins are di/di (own placenta, own sac)

    Truthfully, the chorionicity (as in monochorionic = one placenta) you can see VERY early, because they would share a gestational sac, and if they share the same chorion, they will have the same placenta. But you can determine chorionicity before you even see a placenta... I'm wondering about your placenta path report too, if they all had different chorions. It is pretty clear the different spaces, even in that photo you posted. In our case, they couldn't even FIND the membrane between the babies until 16 weeks, and then, just for a second... they always looked like they were in the same space.

    For instance, here is my 7w6d u/s - you can see both babies in the same black blob - this is the same chorion, which will then be the same placenta. Did yours look like this for babies a/b?
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/colofisch/us2.jpg

    But, in short - they could definitely still be ID. But, if I were betting, I might not put my money on it. Totally do the DNA test though, I would have to know! Especially with the blood type thing. That's such a cool blood type to have, since it is a universal donor! How fun this is!

    I will probably eat my words on this one. I should add that my ID twins look identical to my DS - they definitely look alike, and they definitely look like siblings, but separated by 2 years!

    ETA: I don't think it is possible to have a "thick" wall, and truly share a placenta. The "thick wall" is the chorionic sac + amniotic sac - so that's why if there is a "very thin" wall, it is because the share the chorion, and there is not a chorion separating them. Also, mommymeg was told her boys were sharing a placenta, but then found it was fused. if they have their own black blobs in early us, then they have separate placentas. they can only share if they share a black blob.


    Whew, this stuff is getting technical! I found this explanation of the different types of chorions & bolded what our girls may have been classified as...

    Chorionicity refers to placentation; amnionicity refers to the membrane layers that do or do not separate the gestational sacs of the twins (see figure 34.1)

    o Monochorionic Monoamniotic twins have no separating membrane (MC/MA)

    o Monochorionic Diamniotic (MC/DA) twins have a separating membrane consisting of amnion (two layers) only

    o Dichorionic Diamniotic (DC/DA) twins have a separating membrane consisting of both amnion and chorion. They may or may not have separate (or fused) placentae

    There is also a picture at http://www.health.sa.gov.au/ppg/Portals/0/twins.gif that shows how it would look & here is u/s I found that look similar to what ours did.

    http://test.cvtcollege.org/Ac_Programs/dms...08915402D74.jpg
     

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