I need some help

I don't know what happened to my good sleepers. They are gone, and have been replaced by two babies that cry all night. I thought once you start giving them solids they start sleeping MORE not less! Well not mine! Here is our routine, please let me know if you have any suggestions.

I usually hold them off until 6 am for their first bottle of the day. If they wake up earlier I give them a pacifire and usually they are only half awake anyway so that works and just gives me enough time to put on a bra/comb my hair/put on some coffee/make a bottle and feed them for 6 am.
They go back down for a nap about an hour and a half later, and usually sleep for 2 hours. Then when they wake up they are hungry again, this is usually around 9 am.

The rest of the day after that is a crapp shoot. We try to feed them at 11:30 - noon and get them to take another nap but lately that nap is only about 30 minutes. Then they have another bottle at 3 pm and we try to get them to nap after that, but again, they just don't want to sleep! It's like all of a sudden they no longer need any sleep - and I know this just can't be true! Then we feed them solids (cereal mixed with a veggie) around 5:30, then 1/2 of a bottle at 6, followed by a bath. Then it's like we can't keep them awake to feed them again one more time before we put them to bed around 8 pm. And now they are waking up and crying all night long. Last night Amelia started to wake up at 10 pm and was awake jsut about every hour, and she was not hungry. They don't need that much food, they are taking 6 ounces each feeding during the day. She kept wanting her pacifire and every time it would fall out she would wake up and cry.

This has been going on for about 2 weeks now and it's driving me and DH crazy. They were STTN for awhile and now it's like it's stopped. Last night Lily went until 4:30 am and then woke up for her paci, but like I said, Amelia started at 10 pm, it's just crazy!

I suspect that they (especially Amelia) has gotten to where she likes to "call me" into her room in the night when she wakes up. She knows if she fusses I will come in there and re-position her and comfort her and give her the pacifire so now it's like she wants to call me in there all night long. My pedi gave me a handout at my 4 month check-up last week that says you can not spoil a baby at 4 months old and you should try to tend to them as soon as they cry at this age.

I have to say I think I have met my match with Amelia.

Should I let her CIO? Opinions?

 

I don't have a lot of advice about schedules - mine were all over the map at that point, too. Just to say that my boys and lots of other babies (most of them?) start waking up A LOT around 4 months. It has to do with their brain development as much as anything else (although with breastfed babies there's also the possibility that they're hungry since there's a major growth spurt in there, too). There are SOME babies who start STTN early and keep doing it forever, but the majority of babies do this waking up thing for a while.

Mine settled back into their regular pattern - which is waking 2x to eat every night and maybe needing a rebinking or two in the first half of the night - around 6 months.

As you've figured out, solids have nothing to do with it. And my own opinion is that 4 months is too young for CIO. Your children's temperaments have something to do with it, so you have to be the judge of whether your kids are learning to self soothe when you let them alone or just falling asleep because they're too tired to cry anymore...there's a difference!

 

:hug99: I wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't. At 4 months we had no sleep schedule. We were still getting up at midnight to feed them and sometimes 4am as well. The morning nap was pretty consistent, but the other naps were all over the place. I never did CIO so I can't give you any advice on that, but I'm sure there are other mommies on here who can. Just wanted to send you some :hug99: (to you, your DH, and your girlies).

 

QUOTE
I don't have a lot of advice about schedules - mine were all over the map at that point, too. Just to say that my boys and lots of other babies (most of them?) start waking up A LOT around 4 months. It has to do with their brain development as much as anything else (although with breastfed babies there's also the possibility that they're hungry since there's a major growth spurt in there, too). There are SOME babies who start STTN early and keep doing it forever, but the majority of babies do this waking up thing for a while.

Mine settled back into their regular pattern - which is waking 2x to eat every night and maybe needing a rebinking or two in the first half of the night - around 6 months.

As you've figured out, solids have nothing to do with it. And my own opinion is that 4 months is too young for CIO. Your children's temperaments have something to do with it, so you have to be the judge of whether your kids are learning to self soothe when you let them alone or just falling asleep because they're too tired to cry anymore...there's a difference!


Big ditto. I also think 4 mo is too young for CIO, especially in the middle of the night.

QUOTE
She knows if she fusses I will come in there and re-position her and comfort her and give her the pacifire so now it's like she wants to call me in there all night long.


Your pedi's handout is right - babies that age can't be spoiled. They don't form habits that young, because their brains just aren't wired for it yet. It is literally impossible for your babies to manipulate you at that age, because they do not have any concept of cause and effect yet. It's impossible for a baby that age to think "Oh, if I cry, I can make mommy come in" - they cry because that's the only way they have to communicate that they feel lousy and need something. At that age, she probably can't really self-soothe yet, so she really needs you to comfort her. It sounds counterintuitive, but babies learn to self-soothe by being soothed by their parents, and studies have shown that the more responsive you are in the first 6 mo, the less crying there is in the second 6 mo.

Some ideas - from your post, it sounds like the babies are up for the day around 6, and going to bed at 8. Since there's probably not much you can do to make them sleep in later, I'd try a much earlier bedtime. If they're up at 6, try putting them to bed at 6. They need about 12 hrs of night sleep.

It's possible that the solids are upsetting their tummies a bit too. Most babies don't have the enzymes to digest anything other than breastmilk or formula until 6 or even 8 months. I'd be inclined to suspect this in your babies' case, especially since they're getting solids before bed and then having lousy nights.

It's normal for naps to still be kind of a mess. You're going to get some short ones. I would try putting them down no more than 2 hrs after their last nap, maybe even 1.5 at that age. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds like they're napping maybe 12-12:30, and then you're trying to put them down around 3 - that's a LONG time for babies that young to be awake! And being overtired will only make it harder for them to sleep. Just make a note of whenever they wake up from a nap, and be on the lookout for sleepy signs as little as 1 hr later - if you can catch them as they're just starting to get tired, it will be a lot easier for them to sleep.

It's been said a million times, but sleep begets sleep. Since the babies don't have the brain maturity to sleep at fixed clock times or for predictable lengths of time yet, I'd just focus on avoiding overtiredness. They'll probably start sleeping much better if you shorten the wake times a bit, and try to make their nights longer.

And by all means don't be afraid to comfort your babies during the night. This young, they need you. They can't do it themselves.

Good luck! I hope things get better soon. :hug99:

 

See I was thinking maybe I should put them to bed LATER - you really think I should put them to bed for the night earlier? That would mean they would get 1 less bottle?

 

My DD went through that phase at 4 months as well, it was awful, it lasted about 2 weeks. Her 'game' was to roll over in her crib, then cry b/c she couldn't get back, so I would go in there and flip her 3-4 times before she would settle down and sleep, repeating all night long. Once I figured out that she could easily roll both ways on her own during playtime, I decided enough was enough and I wasn't going to flip her anymore. I started it at the morning nap time, and by bed, she had 'unlearned' the game.

I do not think that you can spoil your baby at 4 months, HOWEVER, I think that at 4 months is when babies start to become more social and they will do things to get your attention b/c they enjoy your company (that's from HSHHC). They are starting to put together, "if I fuss, my mommy will come". We did some modified CIO with DD and it has worked like a charm. I think what is important to realize is that there is a difference between protest crying and 'mommy i'm in trouble and i need something' crying, and to gradually start responding less to the protest crying.

 

QUOTE(fuchsiagroan @ Mar 4 2008, 09:30 AM) [snapback]651863[/snapback]
Some ideas - from your post, it sounds like the babies are up for the day around 6, and going to bed at 8. Since there's probably not much you can do to make them sleep in later, I'd try a much earlier bedtime. If they're up at 6, try putting them to bed at 6. They need about 12 hrs of night sleep.

I would try putting them down no more than 2 hrs after their last nap, maybe even 1.5 at that age. It's been said a million times, but sleep begets sleep.
:


This totally worked for us naps are longer night sleep is longer and we are way happier. It seems to go against logic but it works......at least it did for my boys.

good luck, let us know how it goes

Erica

 

Every time now that I'm putting them down for a nap - other than that first morning nap - they fuss and/or cry. Do y'all let them CIO so that they take naps and aren't awake for more than 2 hours?

 

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See I was thinking maybe I should put them to bed LATER - you really think I should put them to bed for the night earlier? That would mean they would get 1 less bottle?


Definitely earlier! They sound sleep-deprived. Pushing them later will only make it all worse.

About how to fit in the bottle - you could skip the solids for now, or do them at a different time of day, especially if they're cutting into the bottles your girls need. As long as they get to have a bottle whenever they're hungry, they'll get enough. And your girls may still need to eat at least 1x at night too - they're only about 3 mo (corrected age). You could try putting them to bed at 6 and replacing the 8 pm bottle with a dream feed, if they don't wake up for it on their own...

About CIO at naptime - at 3 mo adjusted age, I'd limit it to very minimal fussing. Sure, give them a chance to fall asleep on their own, but if it doesn't work, give them all the soothing they need. 4 mo adjusted age is when self-soothing just BEGINS to develop, and is the earliest "they" recommend CIO - 6 mo is a more common recommendation. I tried it at 4 mo, and it was way too early for my babies. 4.5-5 mo it worked great.

And definitely pick up HSHHC whenever you get a chance (in all your free time )! It is such a good guide to what makes babies tick, as far as sleep goes.

 

QUOTE(aimeethomp @ Mar 4 2008, 08:31 AM) [snapback]651777[/snapback]
I suspect that they (especially Amelia) has gotten to where she likes to "call me" into her room in the night when she wakes up. She knows if she fusses I will come in there and re-position her and comfort her and give her the pacifire so now it's like she wants to call me in there all night long. My pedi gave me a handout at my 4 month check-up last week that says you can not spoil a baby at 4 months old and you should try to tend to them as soon as they cry at this age.

I have to say I think I have met my match with Amelia.

Should I let her CIO? Opinions?


My pedi said the exact opposite about habits forming. She said absolutely they can form habits and they can also throw temper tantrums.
I am having the exact same issues. I started putting them down at 6 instead of 7 a few nights ago and it seems to be helping with the naps. I am also letting them fuss if they wake up after 30mins and they are going back to sleep sometimes for another hour. I also started CIO to put Sofia down (I did this for them both a few weeks ago and it worked for Maia but I gave up on Sofia, but this morning she only fussed for 15mins!)
As for the middle of the night, I am also at a loss. I have been letting them fuss for a couple mins before going to them because I think I might be part of the problem, I jump to get them when they make noise and I think they are just noisy sleepers and I am waking them. My bed is feet away from their crib so I am there in a flash picking them up.

IMO, 4 months is a very tough age!

 

I second or third the earlier bedtime. At that age mine were going to bed a 5:30 and getting up at least twice for bottles. I dont believe at 4 months you can spoil a baby. At that age they need to be able to count on you to meet their needs and they are crying to communicate to you.

 

QUOTE(fuchsiagroan @ Mar 4 2008, 09:29 AM) [snapback]651995[/snapback]
And definitely pick up HSHHC whenever you get a chance (in all your free time )! It is such a good guide to what makes babies tick, as far as sleep goes.



I actually have it right here next to me. I just re-read a couple chapters of it. I swear I've read the whole thing twice but it is so easy to get into other habits. I had a lot of success with Babywise when they were younger but now it just seems like they are more stubborn. I read in HSHHC how he says that you need to determine if they need you or just want you in the night. With Amelia I think she just wants me to re-position her and give her the paci. Also I read something that I knew but haven't been following - I need to turn the baby monitor OFF. I can hear them from my room if they are really crying, and with the monitor I hear every little noise and I think sometimes I go in there when it is not neccessary. Tonight I am going to try to put them to bed after the 6 pm feeding, and also I am going to turn off the monitor and see how it goes. Maybe this way I'll only be woken up if she is crying and not every time she stirs.

Also, after I posted the original topic this morning, I got the girls dressed for the day, and I noticed Amelia had a big orange stain all the down the back of her pajamas. She must have spit up her dinner sometime in the night. So maybe the veggies are hurting her little belly? Maybe tonight I'll go back to just plain cereal and see if that helps her. I would love to go back to not giving them solids at all, I don't know why I was so excited about it. It seems like they hate it and now so do I.

 

It was right around 4 mos that my little monkeys started to go to bed around 6pm. While everyone balked that we were putting them down too early, it made a HUGE difference in our sleep schedules! They began sleeping 6-6:30pm to 6-6:30am, with 1 night feed somewhere between midnight & 4am. We never did dream feeds...just let them wake when they were hungry for them. They dropped the night feed somewhere around 6 mos. A few weeks back, we started having some rough nights & when we upped their bedtime AGAIN (back to 6pm...they had started drifting towards 6:30-7pm), they began STTN again. It's amazing how it seems backwards, but it works!

As for the day routine, we didn't really have one at that point either. My babies NEVER slept 2 hours at that age...you're lucky! I have pro-45 min nappers (which, ironically, has changed over the past few days). I was really focused on them taking bottles every 3-4 hrs & when I did introduce solids, we did plain rice cereal for a month before even adding veggies in AND we started it in the AM vs the PM. That worked better for our schedule since they went down so early.

I also agree with watching for sleep signs. I tried & tried to get a schedule going at that age, only to realize that THEY dictate their schedule still . Mine were NEVER awake more than 2 hrs after waking from their last nap. Sometimes it was an hour, sometimes an hour & a half. It varied.

Hang in there. Give it a few days & hopefully things will get back on track.

GL to you!

 

Totally agree about needing an earlier bedtime. I bet doing that will make a world of difference.

May I also suggest moving the mealtime to a different time of day. Maybe just a little cereal in the morning, maybe after their nap, and then when things have calmed down, try a veggie or fruit for lunch. That way they can get a big, full bottle right before bed.

Good luck and I hope it gets better.

 

QUOTE
I read in HSHHC how he says that you need to determine if they need you or just want you in the night. With Amelia I think she just wants me to re-position her and give her the paci.


Definitely! But I think I would wait at least a month or so to put that plan into action. One thing that makes a lot of sense to me in HSHHC is his insistence on adjusted age, even for babies born as late as 38 wks, IIRC. Even if all Amelia needs is rebinking and repositioning, those are still things that she just can't do herself yet, and she probably can't really calm herself down without your help yet, since she's not even 4 mo adjusted. - About pacis, though, one great idea I read on here (forget who came up with it) was putting like a dozen pacis in the crib, so that wherever the baby wiggles to, they can find one. (At least it works if the baby is old enough to grab things & put them in the mouth.) I wonder if that would help her at all.

GL! It is so much fun trying to figure them out, isn't it??? :wacko: Keep us posted on how things are going!

 

Mine don't stay awake more than 2 hours either. They fuss for about 5 mins and then before I know it, they are asleep. At night, I also found that turning the monitor down as far as it goes, helped me sleep a lot. Good luck!

 

I agree with everything that's been said. Also, keep in mind that while many people use HSHHC as a bible, it is in fact just one book. And like any book, what it refers to may work for MOST babies - but not all. Every baby is an individual and i know i made myself crazy comparing my girls and their routines/schedules to other people's babies. But -they're my babies and i'm not other people!

that said, iwould DEFINITELY try an earlier bedtime. It is completely counterintuitive, but it does seem to hold that the earlier they go down, the longer and better they sleep.

As pp said, your girls are still very little, and even Weissbluth says that some babies need ot eat til they're 9 months old. REmember they have tiny little stomachs and can only handle so much. I also think that you should cut back on the solids; no real reason for them to be getting veggies at that age and some compelling reasons for them not to: immature digestive systems, possibility of creating food allergies,e tc.. And i'd definitely try moving the solids to earlier in the day; seems like if they fill up just before bed it makes for a more difficult night.

I also think that the notion of them being 'stubborn', or manipulating might not be the best way for you to approach this: it's not her versus Mama, it's her needing something and you being the one to fulfill the need. At some point, yes, there is a difference between 'i want to play with you in the middle of the night', and 'i need to be comforted because i don't know how to do it myself." I just think that yours are still at that stage where it's the latter.

I'm sure this makes no sense but - i SWEAR, soon enough you will be looking back on this stage and not beleiveing that they are already six, eight, ten,twelve months old, so - try to enjoy their babyhood while it's there! (does not help with the waking all the tiem, i know!)

good luck!

 

I think 4 months is too young to CIO we did it at around 8/9 months when they dropped the overnight bottle and I knew they were capable of sleeping through the night...I do remember those days of going in their room about every three hours but I also eliminated the paci around 2/3 months because that was alot of their cause for waking when it wasn't for hunger.

 

Okay it is 7 pm and both babies have been put down for the night. I skipped the solids today altogether. They went down between 6:30 and 7 pm so I hope this works! Last time I tried this they were both up screaming at 9, so I'll let you know how it goes!

 

okay, mine are not that age, yet. but I would also suggest putting them to bed earlier. Are they supposed to get solids at four months? My pedi told me not before one year? Just food for thought.

shannon

 

they are already awake crying. Earlier bed time did not work.

 

:hug99: Give it time. It sounds like they've been piling up a big sleep deficit for a while now. The earlier bedtime is a great first step, but it will take a while to get them caught up on their rest.

QUOTE
I also think that the notion of them being 'stubborn', or manipulating might not be the best way for you to approach this: it's not her versus Mama, it's her needing something and you being the one to fulfill the need. At some point, yes, there is a difference between 'i want to play with you in the middle of the night', and 'i need to be comforted because i don't know how to do it myself." I just think that yours are still at that stage where it's the latter.


Ditto Jordari - you said it so well.

I know it can really feel like the babies are "out to get you," especially when they're that young. I remember using a lot of colorful and unprintable language when mine were tiny and sucking the life out of me. But they're not waking up because they're stubborn, or being "bad," or trying to test you. There will be plenty of battles of wills later on, but this just isn't one of them. I know you're probably so exhausted that you're walking into walls at this point, but they just can't help it that they need you.

:hug99: Hang in there mama! It does get better! Hopefully even a few days of getting more sleep (early bedtime + more naps) will help.

 

QUOTE(aimeethomp @ Mar 5 2008, 01:18 AM) [snapback]653106[/snapback]
they are already awake crying. Earlier bed time did not work.


Give it time and give yourself a break. You did a great job getting them to bed earlier. Stick with it, you can do it!!!

 

Update:
When DH is off work he and I rotate night duty, and last night was his night, that's why this is all his report and not mine.

DH says Amelia is sick and he did not like the earlier bed time. I actually think the earlier bed time worked for Lily (b/c she is not sick) - she went right down at 6:30 and woke up to eat at 1:30 and has stayed asleep ever since. IMO that is pretty good.

But DH said Amelia was up all night again, but it was obviously because she is very congested and can not breathe. He said he steamed up the bathroom and stood in there with her for a little while and it calmed her down and then he put a humidifier in their room and turned it on and it has finally given her some relief. Poor baby, she has probably been sick and we just couldn't tell until last night.

DH said he didn't get more than 45 minutes sleep at one time last night b/c of Amelia
I am waiting for the pedi office to open so I can get her in this morning.

But now I am confused! Take Amelia out of this scenario b/c she is sick so I'm sure her sleep is affected. Lily went to sleep at 6:30 last night, woke up around 1:30 and took a full bottle, and now is still sleeping and it's 6:51. So now I'm thinking maybe 6 am is not their "wake up time" but they were just doing that before because they were so hungry. So if Lily sleeps til 7:30 or 8 do you think I should continue to put her to bed around 6:30 or should she start staying up later or what? Is sleeping 14 hours normal, it seems long to me? I'll have to bust out my copy of HSHHC and see what it has to say but I'm pretty sure he says 12 hours.

I wish I could just ask them what they need and they could tell me!

 

So sorry your baby girl is sick! I hope she starts feeling better soon.

It sounds to me that Lily is very pleased with the early bedtime! I would definitely continue with the 6:30 bedtime and give it a few days to see if it really makes a difference. Please don't try to keep them up later or else you will be right back where you started. Unfortunately nothing happens "overnight" with babies so you do need to be consistent with bedtimes to see a difference.

You are doing a great job! Stick with it!

Let us know how Amelia is doing.

 

Sounds like Lily had a great night!! Sorry Amelia is not feeling well. Hang in there.

 

I'm sorry that Amelia is sick. I hope the pedi calls back soon! As for Lily, that is great!!! I don't think 14 hours is too much sleep. I don't have my copy of HSHHC handy, but I'm pretty sure he lists the recommended total amount of sleep per day by age. GL with this and hang in there. Life is so much harder when dealing with sleep deprivation. :hug99:

 

Oh, poor Amelia! I'm sorry she's sick. Hope she gets to feeling better really soon.

Definitely sounds like the early bedtime worked for Lily! That's great.

When things get sort of back to normal with two healthy babies, I'd probably just try to keep track of their wake up time (it may be later than 6, if they're going right back to sleep after that bottle), and aim for their bedtime to be about 12 hrs later. 12 hrs night sleep is reasonable to aim for; you definitely don't want less; but more wouldn't be a problem either. There are some babies who need 14 hrs sleep a night - just like some adults are fine on 7 hrs, and some need 10 hrs. (And then there are us moms of twins, who can cobble together 30 min, 90 min, and 50 min of sleep and call it a night! )

QUOTE
I wish I could just ask them what they need and they could tell me!


Oh man, if I had a nickel for every time I've said that!!!

Hang in there. Sounds like you're on the right track! And keep us posted on how Amelia is doing.

 

I don't know what is going on with Amelia! I don't know if DH was exagerating or what, but I looked like a liar at the doctor's office! I know I post a lot on here and I don't know how many of you read what I write, but one time I wrote about how my girls love their change table.

So I bring Amelia to the doctor, I get her in right when they open at 8:30, because she is "so sick" and when we get there I put her on the examining table - which is as high as her change table, only it's even better, because it has krinkley paper underneath her feet! So she starts to giggle and coo and kick her feet all around to hear the paper, and keeps on giggling and cooing the whole time we are in there, even when the doctor was examining her! I said "I swear, this baby was acting sick this morning!" The pedi goes "Wow, that is one talkative baby!" and I said "Yeah, she sure is happy for a baby that is sick." <_<

So the important things are her temp is normal and she appears to be very happy. She does have a little bit of a cold but the doctor said there's nothing she can really do, just to suction out her nose and keep the humidifier in her room on. I am going to try the early bedtime again tonight and see how it works out.

 

I worked as a vet tech and we call that "the parking lot cure." As soon as their feet hit the parking lot, they are bouncing and fine. Sounds like the same with the paper and your daughters feet. Glad she just has a bit of a cold and nothing more serious!!