I need serious help with the aggressor/victim dynamic

Bea is the aggressor, Ainsley is the victim. It doesn't help that Ainsley has a gross motor delay and is not yet walking. She does pull up and cruise, so if Bea pushes her, it sets her off a lot more than it probably would if she could stand freely. She does not like to be off balance.
So far, I've pretty much just been working on Bea not being such a bully. She steals toys, pushes Ainsley out of the way, and has started hitting. I am about to start Time Outs for that. Right now, I tell her No, and if the situation warrants it, remove her and kind of do a quasi-time out of putting her in a corner or her PNP, just to let her chill for a bit. I don't think she gets the concept that she is hurting someone when she hits or pushes. I make her give me or Ainsley the toy if she stole. Most of the time, I end up with Bea screaming and throwing a fit because she can't play with the toy she wants or I made her stop pushing/hitting.

On to Ainsley. She is becoming the perpetual victim. Yes, it was wrong that Bea stole her toy or hit her, but she completely over reacts at times. Then she starts freaking out if Bea comes anywhere near her. She doesn't try to defend herself or take back her toy. No, I don't want them to fight, but I don't want Ainsley bursting into tears and looking to me to get her toy back. She will start crying and then look over at me with "pick me up" arms. Of course, then Bea gets upset that Ainsley's getting all the attention.

So, how do I both correct Bea's aggressive behavior and toughen Ainsley up a bit?

 

Bea is the aggressor, Ainsley is the victim. It doesn't help that Ainsley has a gross motor delay and is not yet walking. She does pull up and cruise, so if Bea pushes her, it sets her off a lot more than it probably would if she could stand freely. She does not like to be off balance.
So far, I've pretty much just been working on Bea not being such a bully. She steals toys, pushes Ainsley out of the way, and has started hitting. I am about to start Time Outs for that. Right now, I tell her No, and if the situation warrants it, remove her and kind of do a quasi-time out of putting her in a corner or her PNP, just to let her chill for a bit. I don't think she gets the concept that she is hurting someone when she hits or pushes. I make her give me or Ainsley the toy if she stole. Most of the time, I end up with Bea screaming and throwing a fit because she can't play with the toy she wants or I made her stop pushing/hitting.

On to Ainsley. She is becoming the perpetual victim. Yes, it was wrong that Bea stole her toy or hit her, but she completely over reacts at times. Then she starts freaking out if Bea comes anywhere near her. She doesn't try to defend herself or take back her toy. No, I don't want them to fight, but I don't want Ainsley bursting into tears and looking to me to get her toy back. She will start crying and then look over at me with "pick me up" arms. Of course, then Bea gets upset that Ainsley's getting all the attention.

So, how do I both correct Bea's aggressive behavior and toughen Ainsley up a bit?

 

I'll be watching this thread *very* closely. My boys, who just turned 2, are much like this. Alec is the aggressor, hitting, stealing toys, and now pinching. Any time Alec comes near him, Ryan (also the smaller of the two) clutches anything he has to his chest and with panic on his face and in his voice says, "No!" over and over. I've been putting Alec in time out for hitting but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in. I haven't seen any reduction in his hitting and now he's pinching, too. I'm at a loss. I cruised the internet a bit this morning to try and find answers, but the only thing I've found is doing time-out. *sigh*

 

Hi Kelly,
We are dealing with the same thing- my Nick is your Bea and my Casey is your Ainsley. However, Nick enjoys biting his brother instead of hitting. (Nick also is a walker and Casey is not)We have been doing the time out in the PNP in the other room- he hates it, and cries- but i'm not sure if it is sinking in. I will say that within the last couple of weeks, Casey has started fighting back.. he pulls Nick's hair and he is now the hitter. I find myself much more stressed out with this situation. I too was tired of being the mediator, but now I feel like all they do is fight.

I find myself wondering if they actually like eachother sometimes. There is just so much battling going on in our house!

We are hoping that once Casey starts walking things might get better?I wish I had some words of wisdom..I'm sorry I don't- just wanted you to know that you are not alone.

Erika

 

It's comforting that mine aren't the only ones doing this. Anyone been through this time?

 

I'll also be lurking - wondering if there are some parents of older kids who have been thru it??

J tends to dominate H, hog the attention, push him around, etc. He likes to be the center of attention and have people notice him. I can't tell you the number of pix I have of him holding more toys than would seem humanly possible. H usually just decides whatever J takes from him is not worth the struggle and goes on to something else. He doesn't 'cave' like this with others and often stands up for weaker kids when playing - yay. It does seem like H is starting to push back a bit, so that's a whole other round of unpleasantness

J also has been ahead of H in most milestones, but it seems like a lot of personality plays into it (another post mentioned about the 'why do I need to talk if he does it for me' syndrome, which we definitely have here!).



Good luck to everyone, and I'll keep watching.

 

I saw this post and just wanted to let you know how our aggressor/victim have grown. Rylee was the agressor from the beginning 15 months. Ryenn always played victim. But I have to say that towards 3 years we still have the same situation. Ryenn has become aggressive too but she is always the one who promotes apologies and what Rylee did wrong. She usually does not fight back but wants to make things better. It is actually really cute. The past year and a half, they go through their phases of agression but when you look on the whole, we still have Rylee as our aggressor! It is hilarious! Good luck!

 

We are also in this situation. Shane is the agressor, Sophie the victim. And Sophie has motor delay issues as well, so while she walks and climbs, she is easily offbalanced and Shane just pushes her flat down or wrenches toys from her hands. Shane is always punished but smiles, and doesn't take it seriously. meanwhile, Sophie just sadly wanders away, or sits and cries. She has no self defense instincts at all. My heart breaks for her, but I also want her to take up for herself. I am not advocating a boxing match, but I think one good sock from Sophie and Shane would realize that he might get hurt if he tries to push her around. Then, maybe when he's older, he'll understand it what we've been saying about not hurting other people. It's so odd, where do they learn to be agressive?
I will def. be watching this, cause I don't want to raise a bully, or a victim. I watched the Discovery channel Multiples in the Womb show sunday night and they said that multiples show the same dynamic prenataly as in childhood. Often, one is the agressive one and the other passive one, just tries to stay as far away from him as possible. This was the case with us, but that does NOT mean it will continue, if there's anything I can do to help it. Shane is a good little boy who doesn't realize that he's hurting Sophie, and Sophie doesn't seem to understand that she has rights too. I will be anxious for advice on this. Thanks for asking about it. Rhonda

 

quote:
Originally posted by harryjacksmom:
H usually just decides whatever J takes from him is not worth the struggle and goes on to something else. He doesn't 'cave' like this with others and often stands up for weaker kids when playing - yay.


That's an interesting point about behaving differently with other kids than with their twin. Cameron always has to have whatever Alisha has - it's only interesting because she has it . I decided early on I couldn't be a referee, although DH is more protective of Alisha (typical, she's a daddy's girl). If A really cares, she'll put up a fuss and either steal her toy back (or hold on really tight) - if she doesn't win and is really upset I'll get it back for her and give C something else, which usually works). A is just starting to hit when she doesn't get her way, which is going to add another dynamic (punish him for stealing and her for hitting and they'll both be in time out!?!?!?!?). Anyway, I'm going to watch more closely to see how they are around others.

 

Yep, I guess since around 15 months it did start for us too. Annalise (the older one) constantly pushes Allison out of the way, steals her toys. If I am even reading to Allie, guess who comes along to push her out of the way. I wonder how many of the aggressors are the first-born twin? Just curious. Usually for us, if I intervene it seems to just cause more frustration...ie, Annalise (the aggressor) gets more upset than Allison! Go figure! Now they are 22 months and I see that Allison is starting to stand up more for herslef, which is a good thing. Like another parent said, I cant be a referee 24/7 and the word "share" just doesnt seem to sink in yet. Cant wait for preschool when my little agressor realizes she isnt the "queen bee" she thought she was!

 

My agressor is the firstborn.He is and was also the larger of the two.

 

For what its worth (since mine are younger and perhaps we haven't even hit the really bad stage yet), Sarah has learned to defend herself to some degree. When Amy tries to take a toy from her, Sarah hangs onto it tightly and growls at her. If Amy still gets it away, Sarah will start whacking Amy in the face.

OK, I shouldn't laugh -- and it is really annoying having them fight all the time -- but at least Sarah is standing up for herself. She has also become almost as bad about stealing toys as Amy is. I wish I could tell you what happened to change the aggressor/victim dynamic (into, apparently, an aggressor/aggressor dynamic ), but it just sort of happened. They are in daycare though, and I wonder if maybe Sarah was not always the victim in her relationships with other kids, and that led her to understand that she didn't have to let Amy push her around?

However, she is still the victim in the "piteous crying" department. When Sarah wins a fight, Amy's response is to yell with rage and have a temper tantrum. But when Amy wins, Sarah throws back her head and wails as if her heart is breaking.

Also FWIW, my aggressor (Amy) is the second-born twin (but only by 1 minute), and she's smaller. But she is more mobile than Sarah -- she's been walking for 2 months and Sarah isn't walking yet.

I guess I don't have any advice, but since our dynamic is slightly different, maybe there's something in here that is useful to someone.

 

Wow, this is really interesting--can't wait to show it to my wife and read them over more carefully when I'm not at work!

Our guys are a little bit younger, but I think some of the same things still apply. R is the older one and the the thief. J is actually a little bit bigger tho and has learned that once he gets a hold of things that his brother wants to just hang on and RUN! And he runs, not quite as well as R, but good enough to get R upset so that R just ends up standing in place and crying.

One other thing is that J is the one who bites R. And until very recently, R never showed any physical aggresions in return--but recently has just started shoving his brother for no reason. It seems pretty cruel...

Anyway, the only 2 cents I can contribute is that so far it hasn't been that big of a problem, but my wife and I have independently come to an understanding that while the victim needs some sort of reassurance, so also does the aggressor. We sort of figure that if J bites his brother, he needs to be reassured that yes, that's not the right thing to do, but also that it's ok to be mad at his brother, but there are other ways of dealing with it then by biting. So I don't know, I guess we are trying to reassure everybody! What can I say, life is hard!?

Anyway, this is a great post, and I look forward to seeing more experiences! /Joel

 

Today we were at Gymboree and during the toy box time, a little girl stole a toy from Bea. I was a little nervous about what would happen, would Bea hit her or would a fight break out, but she just sat there stunned. The other mom was totally embarrassed and apologized, tried to make her give it back but she wouldn't, basically the same thing that happens when Bea steals from Ainsley. I said don't worry about it, Bea needs to learn how it feels. After that, Bea went around handing toys to other kids and moms. Maybe being around other kids will help this. Or maybe not so much, later that day they fought over a plastic bowl and Bea threw a book at Ainsley.

My main problem is how to not have Bea throwing a tantrum and Ainsley acting like the world is coming to an end. Putting Bea in a Time Out seems to be helping a bit on her end of the deal. It does get her to cool off and then I can redirect her to some other activity. Ainsley has been pitiful and clingy lately, adding to her Super Victim thing.

 

Connor was allways the bully and Heather the victim. Now H is starting to fight back and actually has become a bully herself once in a while.

All along we've tried to balance out stopping the bad behavior (making C give back the toy he stole, or stopping him from pushing, or whatever the case may be) and letting them work it out on their own. Now if it gets rough we intervene, but we usually try to let them deal with it.

 

My twins are 18 months old and the younger, smaller twin is usually more aggressive and more verbal. If his twin takes something from him he will come to me and point to him and try to get it back. (this morning his twin took his breakfast) Not only does he "tattle" but he hits too. They both will steal from each other and they both try to take it back from the other (usually) but my little guy can get very agressive when trying to get it back. I have tried time outs but it just makes him angrier. I'll be honest I have found that when I swat his hand ( not hard ) that it makes more of a point. It's instant and I tell him "no" at the same time. He gets a look on his face like "I'm in trouble" and I'll tell him to say sorry and he'll give his brother a hug. I know it's crazy to teach "don't hit" this way but it's just a tap on the hand.....Anyway that's my two cents. Good luck!

 

We definitely have the aggressor/victim dynamic happening at times, although it isn't complicated by one twin having developmental delays that make it more difficult for her to fight back.

For what it's worth, our general strategy is to:

a) Count to ten and see if they can come to a resolution without us.

b) If not (95% of the time), we tend to focus first on the victim - NOT with sympathy and hugs, but with simple strategies for how to solve the problem herself. For example, a oft-repeated situation would be when Chloe takes a toy from Rachael, and Rachael cries. We go to Rachael, and say "You need to tell Chloe 'NO, that's mine!'" Then we tell her to take the toy back from Chloe. If she continues to cry, and is unable to do it on her own, we do the process with her.

c) Then we tell Chloe "You want Rachael's toy, but you need to wait until she's done and then you can have it."

d) Finally, we tell Rachael "Rachael, when you are done with the toy, can you let Chloe use it?" (When you put the decision to give up the toy in her hands, she is usually pretty willing to give it up fairly quickly.)

This is no easy fix - but a strategy that gets repeated over and over and over, throughout days, weeks, months, years...

-Karen

 

We are at the stage now that time out is the worst thing in the whole world as far as they are both concerned.
When things get way out of hand and both of them need me, one being the aggressor to calm down and one to be the victim and have attention we found time outs work very well for this. We do it this way:
The aggressor needs to sit in time out. If they are that worked up they sit in time out on Mommy's lap facing the wall. No conversations except telling whoever it is they need to calm down. Sometimes it requires a full body hug to kind of keep them there, or hold their hands in mine (their fists balled) while I tell them them in a low voice to calm down some please.
I also tell the victim that sissy needs a time out, and we will read a story (or something else) together when the aggressor has calmed down.
This works when they are a little older than A&B, but we started time outs for M&T just before they turned 2, and have started with A on a limited basis recently.
We think the little extra time for the aggressor with a parent helps them calm down faster and gives them the little "boost" they may need to feel more postive again. And gives the victim time to know the parent knows what is going on and it is being dealt with without rewarding the victim with huge attention for being the victim and reenforcing that attitude.

 

Mine take turns, one day Gillian's the aggressor, the next it's Garrett. When they were younger the spells were longer. She was the first to roll over, sit up, crawl etc. So she would beat him up and take away toys. Now that they are equally mobile (2 1/2 yrs), it's war some days.
I do notice they play different with other children though. I also notice that when given choices in children to play with they gravitate to other multiples. There are 3 sets all together in our church's 2 year old nursery. (My B/G, Triplet G, and Identical B/B)
They seem to understand there's a different interaction amongst themselves.
How do you really deal with the battles though? They are the same age, so the "be nice to your little brother/sister" doesn't apply. I try to only get involved when it really escalates, because I want them to learn some problem solving skills. But some days........

 

quote:
Originally posted by Minette:
For what its worth (since mine are younger and perhaps we haven't even hit the really bad stage yet), Sarah has learned to defend herself to some degree. When Amy tries to take a toy from her, Sarah hangs onto it tightly and growls at her. If Amy still gets it away, Sarah will start whacking Amy in the face.

OK, I shouldn't laugh -- and it is really annoying having them fight all the time -- but at least Sarah is standing up for herself. She has also become almost as bad about stealing toys as Amy is. I wish I could tell you what happened to change the aggressor/victim dynamic (into, apparently, an aggressor/aggressor dynamic ), but it just sort of happened. They are in daycare though, and I wonder if maybe Sarah was not always the victim in her relationships with other kids, and that led her to understand that she didn't have to let Amy push her around?

However, she is still the victim in the "piteous crying" department. When Sarah wins a fight, Amy's response is to yell with rage and have a temper tantrum. But when Amy wins, Sarah throws back her head and wails as if her heart is breaking.

Also FWIW, my aggressor (Amy) is the second-born twin (but only by 1 minute), and she's smaller. But she is more mobile than Sarah -- she's been walking for 2 months and Sarah isn't walking yet.

I guess I don't have any advice, but since our dynamic is slightly different, maybe there's something in here that is useful to someone.


i couldn't even cut part of what Minette said out...this is MY LIFE...although, I'm starting to think that Alexa (her Sarah) is now the aggressor since she's the one who's doing all the hitting now, even though Ellie (her Amy) is doing all the stealing. (ellie is also the 2nd born much smaller, more mobile one like amy). I'll be watching this thread too, but isn't it nice to know there are SO MANY twins like this!!!

 

I have been trying to stay out of it a little more, unless it's getting physical and someone's getting hurt.
We'll go a few days without incident, and then we'll have a day when it seems like that's all they do.
I guess this is all just part of having twins. I also did notice that they play much differently with other children. Bea is not nearly as aggressive and Ainsley is outgoing.