I just can't do it anymore

I know I'm not alone in this, but I am just not able to keep up this sleep-deprivation charade any longer. The boys have never been good sleepers. For the past 2 months, Nick has screamed all night. It didn't matter if I tried to settle him in his crib, laid with him on the couch, in our bed...he screamed and screamed and screamed for about 2 hours. Took him to the doctor...no ear infection, no physical problems. He is now "sleeping", but only if we get him the second he starts screaming and bring him to our bed. Now we are not sleeping. He used to make it to 3am, but now it's more like 12am before he joins us.

I know many of you will say my problem was bringing him to my bed. Well, I agree that wasn't our first choice, but after 3 weeks of getting NO SLEEP I had to do what I could to survive. This is the situation I have now.

Now Joe has joined the ranks of the non-sleeping. He will not go back to sleep on his own anymore. It's almost like an instant replay of Nick 2 months ago...I was up with him for 2.5 hours from 2-4:30am the other night (pretty typical).

We spoke to our pedi at the 12 mo wcc about concerns about not sleeping through the night and how bad it was and he just kind of said, "yeah, that sounds rough." He alluded to the fact that it was probably sep. anxiety and to ride it out. If they had been sleeping through before and I had some energy reserves I might be able to take it, but we've never had good sleep and it just...keeps...getting...worse.

They have taken naps just fine since about 6 months. We're still on 2 naps a day, but total nap sleep isn't more than 3 or 3.5 hours. Because they can't make it on 1 nap yet, we don't go to bed until 8:30pm b/c they aren't waking up from their 2nd nap until 4:30pm. Wake up time ranges from 5am - 6:30am.

I have read all the books, Ferber, Wiessbluth, Sears. We tired CIO and after a week Nick was still screaming for up to 3 hours and then it was just time to get up for the day...so DH said it was cruel to keep up the charade and so that was the end of that (DH is NOT a CIO supporter...he's a Sears man). However, we've been doing the Sears thing and things have gotten exponentially worse.

Please help....thank you if you bothered to actually read my entire ramble.

 

:hug99: Sorry you are still dealing with no sleep! And your ped...what a big help!! I have done CIO with all of my non-sleepers, so I don't have any advice. Hope it gets better for you soon.

ETA...You know I just read through your post again....it sounds like it is a vicious cycle that they are in and you need to break it. Maybe they are sleeping too much, too late in the day, and it's disrupting thier nighttime sleep. I would try one nap with them. The first few days might be horrible. I would put them down at 12 for a nap. Up at 3. Down for bed at 7ish. My thinking is if they get one, longer, earlier nap, they are going to be tired at 7 and they might sleep better too.

 

We started using a really great book called "Good Night, Sleep Tight" when the girls were about 3 months old, and within 6 weeks they were both sleeping through the night (9 hour stretches). I highly recommend it. Obviously I didn't use it when my kids were the age your kids are at right now, but I've talked to other people who have used it with older kids and they've had great success. She has a method called something like "The Sleep Lady Shuffle" that is supposed to help get older kids sleeping through the night. It takes a fair amount of time, but it might be a little more gentle than CIO, especially with a kid who cries for 3 hours straight!

Good luck

 

:hug99: I wouldn't say I have solution for you, but I wanted to tell you to "hang in there."

Mine are still on 2 naps too. However, Lilly won't sleep more than 45 mns. per nap, but she sleeps great at night, 11 hrs. and she wouldn't wake if it wasn't for Anderson's screams. Anderson's day nights are always longer, up to 1 hr. and a half, however he wakes up screaming every night. They share a room which is right next to ours, so he basically wakes up everybody, so what do we do?? we set up a a pack n' play in the livingroom which is far enough to where we can barely hear him, and we put him in there and let him CIO. My DH is also not a CIO guy, but I told him, if you want to deal with the screams, do it away from me." I know it sounds harsh, but I know my son's cries by now and I can tell when it's a real cry, like a sick and in pain cry, or the cry that just means he wants to play at 2 a.m. I know I can't handle the "fake" screaming in the middle of the night, and I don't want Anderson to get used to us picking him up and soothing him at that time of the night. It's been over 2 weeks that he still does it, but there have been a few nigths that he sleeps through and some nights that he has only cried 10 minutes before going back to sleep. My DH jumped into the CIO wagon after I told him that I would not be the one getting up Good Luck and coffee helps ( us I mean, not the kids)

 

I HIGHLY second the "Goodnight Sleep Tight" book, as I read all the others and found this at 10 and it worked wonders! ANd not everyone's kids go to 15 months to go down to 1 nap a day. Mine went at 13 months. I think that by getting them to bed around 8 and napping a little earlier will help. I don't let mine ever sleep past 4. I hope this helps and you get the sleep soon!
PS - I forgot to add that 14 months to 16 months was really tough for us too.....they were getting molars, could that be some of it?

 

I don't have any suggestions, but I just wanted to give you some *hugs*

 

I'm so sorry you are having to endure this still. Ryan didn't sleep through until he was 11 months old. We tried CIO with him several times and he would end up crying for hours. Then one day it just clicked for him and he has been sleeping through since. He also started walking the same day he first slept through, not sure if that is a coincidence but I have heard of milestones disturbing sleep. I think at the point that you are at you need to tackle one thing at a time. If I were in your shoes I would first put him back in his bed and not bring him to your bed anymore. I do think that at the age that yours are that some form of CIO is warranted, but regardless if you want to do that or not I would try to hold firm and not bring them to bed with you. Be sure that you do the same bedtime routine everyday. Once you have them sleeping in their beds again, I would probably try switching to one nap. Give it at least a week to see if that improves anything.

Just as a reference we went to this schedule at about 16 months: Bedtime at 8, wakeup around 8:30 and nap 1-3.

It's sounds like your pedi is not helping you at all. I'm not sure what practice you go to, but you might want to consider switching to a dr. that is more willing to give you some options. Send me a PM and I can tell you who we see. We love her and she has twins herself and is a member of EMoms.

 

Have you definitely ruled out teething? Have you ever tried a tiny bit of motrin (maybe half dose) before bed just to see what will happen? Can you pinpoint a reason why he is ok in your bed but not his? Is there a comfort issue in his bed that arises after the initial sleeping? It sounds like he is sleeping ok from when he first goes down but something is bothering him and he is unable to put himself back to sleep after that first sleep window. If you think it is a thing with him not wanting to be alone, would you consider putting both children in the same bed? Sorry if my questions are a pain, just trying to figure out why he is comfortable in your bed but not his (and of course hoping that it is not just because he wants to be with you because he sleeps fine initially).

 

Dianne touched on a very good point. My boys did not sleep through the night until they were almost 3 years old - YES, YOU HEARD ME - almost 3 years old. That is when they slept in the same bed for the 1st time. Let me say that my kids NEVER slept in my bed, and we tried every method under the sun, read every book and nothing worked. They would go down without issues, but would wake several times a night. We even went through night terrors with Jackson where he would wake up around 11:30 and scream unconsolably and thrash around for 2 hours. We would get over 1 issue and another would start. At almost 3 years old, Jackson climbed out of his crib and at 4am I took the cribs apart and dragged the queen sized mattress from the spare room into their room and we have had ZERO issues since then. I always tell people I wish I had tried that sooner. It would have saved me a lot of sleepless nights. Good Luck. Being sleep-deprived is not fun and very stressful.

 

Thanks everyone for your input. I guess I was needing to vent as much as looking for answers. Anyhow, responses to some of your quesitons:

QUOTE(becky5 @ Jun 8 2007, 06:05 PM) [snapback]284796[/snapback]
I would try one nap with them. The first few days might be horrible. I would put them down at 12 for a nap. Up at 3. Down for bed at 7ish. My thinking is if they get one, longer, earlier nap, they are going to be tired at 7 and they might sleep better too.


I have been thinking this would be my next move...but we wake up by 5am so often that getting to lunch would be nearly impossible. I have decided it's a necessary move and if that means we only make it to 10:30 for the nap, so be it.

I also think the fact that i have to wake them from every nap is not helping. In order to preserve the next nap/bedtime I MUST wake them up. They never really get to wake up on their own from naps (they'd go 2-3 hours EACH nap if I let them).


QUOTE(Tasha @ Jun 8 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]284822[/snapback]
I forgot to add that 14 months to 16 months was really tough for us too.....they were getting molars, could that be some of it?


This did all start pretty near the time they were cutting their top 2 teeth (we are late teethers), but it's definatley not molars!

QUOTE(Dianne @ Jun 8 2007, 07:00 PM) [snapback]284879[/snapback]
Have you definitely ruled out teething? Have you ever tried a tiny bit of motrin (maybe half dose) before bed just to see what will happen? Can you pinpoint a reason why he is ok in your bed but not his? Is there a comfort issue in his bed that arises after the initial sleeping? It sounds like he is sleeping ok from when he first goes down but something is bothering him and he is unable to put himself back to sleep after that first sleep window. If you think it is a thing with him not wanting to be alone, would you consider putting both children in the same bed? Sorry if my questions are a pain, just trying to figure out why he is comfortable in your bed but not his (and of course hoping that it is not just because he wants to be with you because he sleeps fine initially).


Initially I think teething may have set it off, and it took soo long for their top 2 teeth to cut that I felt like I was drugging them (we went through A LOT of motrin). I didn't notice a difference on nights with/without motrin.

Not sure about a comfort issue in his bed...nothing has changed. I would consider putting both in one bed, if it weren't for the screaming. The last thing I want is two awake screaming babies (which we do get on occassion).


QUOTE(heathernd @ Jun 8 2007, 07:52 PM) [snapback]284961[/snapback]
Dianne touched on a very good point. My boys did not sleep through the night until they were almost 3 years old - YES, YOU HEARD ME - almost 3 years old. That is when they slept in the same bed for the 1st time. Let me say that my kids NEVER slept in my bed, and we tried every method under the sun, read every book and nothing worked. They would go down without issues, but would wake several times a night. We even went through night terrors with Jackson where he would wake up around 11:30 and scream unconsolably and thrash around for 2 hours. We would get over 1 issue and another would start. At almost 3 years old, Jackson climbed out of his crib and at 4am I took the cribs apart and dragged the queen sized mattress from the spare room into their room and we have had ZERO issues since then. I always tell people I wish I had tried that sooner. It would have saved me a lot of sleepless nights. Good Luck. Being sleep-deprived is not fun and very stressful.


OMG...this is exactly my kids. Joe has night terrors (maybe once a week. It's only really bad once a month). I think my boys are too young (nearly 15 months) to try a mattress on the floor - they'd never stay. I don't mind Diane's idea, but I'm thinking a crib is too small for the 2 of them and a mattress is too much freedom?

 

QUOTE
I have been thinking this would be my next move...but we wake up by 5am so often that getting to lunch would be nearly impossible. I have decided it's a necessary move and if that means we only make it to 10:30 for the nap, so be it.


I think that you should try to get them down as close to 12 as possible(without having total meltdowns), even the first day you try it, they will hopefully take a long nap, be ready for bed at 7ish, and they might sleep later the next morning because they aren't sleeping so much during the day. Thus, starting a new routine....I hope!! Just my 2 cents. :hug99:

 

I don't have any advice for you, other than to echo what others have said about changing their sleeping schedule a bit to see if it helps. Huge hugs to you and best wishes. I hope this works out for you!

 

My girls are great sleepers, except while teetihng, Hyland's teething tablets are my most wonderful friends! Use them, as needed, they won't hurt them. I would take them to the pedi if you have tried everything else too, they may have some kind of pain, whether it is ears or teeth. I would not cut down to one nap, I would not wake them up in the morning nap either. The afternoon nap would be no later than 4pm wake time. I hope you can find some sleep in your household.

 

if you're trying to move him back into his own room and he's screaming, you may want to try to put a mattress in there for you or your husband to sleep on for all/part of a couple of nights. at the beginning in the transition, i moved the girls into their own cots in our room, then i moved into their room on a mattress on the floor all night. then i only went in there once they'd begun to wake for the night. and now i rarely go in. it takes a while, but may ease the separation anxiety. :hug99:

 

Oh gosh, I really feel for you, you must be exhausted. I haven't dealt with any sleep issues that extreme, so I'm not sure how much my advice will help. I do tend to solve sleep issues with CIO if other things don't work, and/or I don't want to start something I do not wish to continue (i.e. sleeping with them, I just can't sleep with a baby in my bed).

First off, it really sounds like they are not getting enough sleep at night, and that's why they are napping so much in the day. It is going to be rough, but they need to be on a better sleep schedule.

I would pick what time you would like them to wake in the morning, and then 12 hrs from that is their bedtime. For example, mine normally wake at 7:00am, so bedtime is 7:00pm. If they happen to wake earlier, I either give it some time and see if they fall back asleep (often times they do), but I always wait until at least 7:00 to go get them, unless they are in absolute hysterics, which is rare. For yours, you might have to let them be in hysterics for a while until they figure out that Mommy is not going to come get them until the appointed time.

It's up to you if you want to continue with two naps or go to one. Whatever you do, the times should be consistent and you might have to wake them until they adjust. If bedtime is 7:00, they should not be sleeping later than 3:00ish.

I really thought before I had my kids I would be more Sears-like, I couldn't imagine doing CIO. But, I am absolutely miserable if I don't get sleep. I think parents' sleep IS important too, and we are no good to our kids if we are sleep deprived.
Good luck!

 

I have a rather new suggestion... How about asking an occupational therapist for their opinion or advice. The reason I bring that up is that, I work with pediatric OT's here and there, and at times they have told me of similar situations (kids they were treating for one problem that actually ended up getting better sleep through some of the sensory integration strategies they work on in therapy). There are music therapy programs now that some mom's swear help their children sleep better through the night, as well as other methods to help with what is called "sensory integration"- while these programs are usually used for children who fall on the autistic spectrum, I've spoken to OT's who say it is useful for other children as well with less obvious sensory issues. By the way, by sensory integration, I am referring to how some children have difficulty processing some aspects of sensory information (e.g. the child who is sensitive to certain food textures or smells, the child who freaks over noises or dirty hands), which causes them to become frustrated, fearful, or act out in ways that aren't typical. But I digress... all I'm trying to say is that maybe asking an OT could help.
good luck, My heart goes out to you. We used the "Babywise" program by Ezzo to get our girls to sleep, but I don't think that helps much for older kids.

 

My first bit of advice-- get a grandma or aunt or friend to watch the one night so you and dh can go to a hotel and get some much needed sleep.

Then you'll be rested up for trying CIO again. I am not a fan of CIO either. In fact, I get irritated at people who do CIO under 12 months. But we still were getting up a couple of times at night, and the ped said there was nothing physically wrong. So at 16 months old dh took a week off from work, I bought ear plugs, a book, and a timer, and we did a modified Ferber. It took almost the whole week, but it worked for us.

When they woke up crying the first time, we'd go in, pick them up, cuddle for a few mintes until they stopped crying, put them back in their cribs, and left. Then the timer was set for 5 minutes. If they were still crying, we'd go back in. Then set the timer for 10 minutes. Repeat. Set timer for 15 mintes. Repeat. And continue for 15 minutes until they'd pass out. During the times they were crying I'd put in my ear plugs, go into the basement, and read my book until the timer went off.

They're still not perfect sleepers. DH was out of town this weekend, and Noah was having a rough time last night, so he slept in my bed. But its 100% better then it was before.

 

Okay, so I started the one nap thing today & am planning to CIO. [SIZE=14pt]Should I do it all at once, or in phases?[/SIZE] The main issue I see (making me lean towards gradual) is:

*Making it to noon was a REAL strech for us. If they are up screaming all night, I don't see how we can survive the next day on 1 nap. Plus, Gma has them 2 days a week and it's going to be difficult for her to get them to noon also...I don't want to drop off exhausted, cranky babies who've been awake/screaming all night.

Anyone want to weigh in? (Better yet, anyone want to come over and do it all for me? :laughing: )

 

Okay, here's what I would do. Don't let them sleep later than 4 today for nap. Put them to bed at 8 tonight and don't get them up before 7. And I would stick with two consistent naps probably 10 to 11:30 and 2 to 3:30/4 at the latest. I was never able to do the cold turkey, close the door, never go back all night type of CIO. If I heard them, I'd wait 15min. If they were still crying (not fussing but full blown crying) I'd go in with as little light as possible and shhh whoever was crying trying not to pick them up. If it was mass hysteria, I'd pick them up for a minute then do the typical putting them to bed routine without talking. For us that meant a good cuddle, whisper "it's night night time" lay them down, give them their lovies and leave the room. If I knew nothing was wrong, I'd resolve to wait more than 15min the next time. It never lasted that long. I did pretty much the same thing at naps. I rarely have to go into their room now since they know that sleep time is sleep time and I'm not coming in unless it's VERY important. You need to muster all the strength you have in you to be super consistent for several weeks and I'm sure you'll see progress. Will grandma stick to whatever routine you set? If not, I'd suggest trying to take off your two days this week and be super rigid in your timing. Then by the time they go to grandma's next week they'll be used to it. GL!

 

I did CIO gradually in a sense with Ainsley at 10 months. The issues at the time were that I had to hold her to fall asleep (for naps and bedtime, very time consuming, it's not like she fell asleep in a couple minutes, bedtime could take hours) and she would wake in the middle of the night and I ended up putting her in bed with me. So, what I did was first I did CIO for the night waking. I would first go in just to make sure everything was OK, and tell her it's time for sleep and leave. I am paranoid about night wakings, I want to make sure they haven't pooped or vomited or something. That took about a week. Then I did CIO for holding to go to sleep. I gave her a quick cuddle and kiss, put her to bed, and left. The first night it took about an hour to fall asleep, then it gradually got less, this also took a week. By the time I was done with these things, I didn't need to do CIO for naps.

I think consistency is really the big thing here. Pick what you want to do and stick with it. I do think they still may need two naps, they are young. Anyone else who watches them is going to HAVE to stick with it, or it's not going to work. Good luck!