I felt bad but it is her choice

Who did I feel bad for it's a toss up.

The other day I saw a mom shopping with her little girl. The child had a toy in her hand the mom had some soup or a can of something. Mom said to the little girl "mommy wants some kashi bars, let's go get some" this little (maybe 4 or 5 year old child) said to her mom "no mamma, I don't want to go back there. You don't get them". The mom said "but mommy likes them" little girl said "no i don't want to" mom then says to the little girl "okay mommy's last. Let's go pay for this stuff.

Honestly if a person wants to make their child their world great but this is not going to do anything good for this child. The world does not revolve around an individual. Once this child gets to school she will think her choices about what is going to happen are going to happen this little girl is going to have a rude awakening and the parent is going to wonder why her sweet little girl is getting into fights. Do I feel worse for tithe parent who is placing herself last or the child who is being taught that what she wants is more important than what anyone else wants.

My world was my children when they were younger but they did not control or decide what was going to happen especially in situations like this. Sure they could choose to wear polka dot blue rain boots on a sunny day with a striped dress and a winter coat. They would live with the consequences of their choices. But they are not the ultimate decision makers.

 

I don't know...maybe it was a "choose your battles" kind of day. Or maybe it made the mom think "I don't need those really...or I can get them another time". I really hope that was the case. But ya never know what kind of day that mom was having.

 

I don't know- not knowing the woman or her child, this seems to be jumping to conclusions about her parenting/their life. Maybe she was just picking her battles and wanted to get out of the store without a tantrum? I totally get what you're saying, but there are times, when it's not something important, that it's better to just relent for the purposes of sanity (and an easy exit from the store!).

 

Yea it is good to look at things with this thought. Mom was having a bad day, choosing her battles but this mom did not look as though she was winning anything with this action. She looked sad and defeated. When a parent chooses her battles (I have done this) she is choosing what is better for the situation. This mom full out gave her daughter the choice. It was sad. I have seen similar situations so often working with the public. I guess she could have been choosing to not have a child with a tantrum on the floor. How did she get to this point though? Mom is out shopping, we need to buy things while out. You buy them. That is why you are out. The thing that irks me so much that she straight out told her daughter that "mommy is last" mommy should not be last and if she is it is out of love and shown through action not told to a child.

 

I agree with both of these. It is difficult to know what kind of day that mom had been having & maybe those bars just weren't worth the effort. I have definitely had those kinds of days & I would hate to know that people were judging my overall parenting skills based on one bad moment. As for what she said about mommy being last, maybe she was just trying to make a point to the child. Not the best way to do it maybe, but possibly an attempt to make the child see how her behavior was affecting others, in this case her mom.

 

It is really hard to form an opinion on a minute long interaction between a parent and child short of it being an emotionally abusive statement. Maybe they had been there for 2 hours and mom just didn't want to drag her back into the store. Maybe the girl has autism or something else going on and her mom knew that today wsn't the day to push it with her. Maybe it had been a great shopping trip and most trips are horrible and mom wanted to end on a good note. Or maybe the mom is a martyr who caters to her child's every whim. Who knows. I don't think anyone can know, especially when talking about a short observation out of a 24 hour day, 7 day a week, life.

 

I totally agree with Jori: one snapshot of a conversation is not enough to judge anything. I would hate to think that anyone was judging me about any kind of conversation I had with my kids because god knows I have said some things. In general I think we should be more supportive of other moms rather than questioning their judgement. If I had overheard that conversation, I might have just offered to go get the darn kashi bars and laughed about how tough it was to go shopping with kids sometimes.

 

I don't know but this kind of post makes me sad and hurt for the mom in question that we are even discussing a 1-min moment in her life. It really is none of our business what her choices are and how she chooses to parent. She is going about her daily businesses with her child and it is not up to anyone else to question her movements or private discussions with her child. I'm sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but IMO we can all do better just to worry about our own children.

 

I feel fine discussing this situation. I am not judging this parent I am judging the way "a" parent interacted with her child. Children these days seem to have taken over the decision making that the parent should own. Many parents are giving away their backbone. I am not making this statement based on this one interaction i saw with this mother and her little girl. I understand giving in a little or as we also call it "picking our battles" but choosing to not go 7 or so aisles for something we want (we have a right to have our wants met) because our child does not want to is giving much to much power to a child. How does a child's heart grow if they get so much control. This is just my opinion though and no one has to agree with me.

 

I'm not understanding what you mean by this. Are you saying submitting to parental authority somehow makes her heart grow? Or, just that recognizing others have wants & needs helps her heart grow? I don't think we can assume by this interaction that she isn't learning/going to learn that. 4-5 year olds are pretty self-centered & very much in the moment. Maybe the girl wasn't feeling well or maybe the mom really didn't want those Kashi bars so much after all. What is it with Target, anyway? I end up leaving there with have a cart full of unneeded stuff! And, I'm pretty sure a few of my worst parenting moments have occured in Target. I've probably been the subject of a few posts on message boards myself!

That said, when I read that she told her child "momma is last" I did cringe. Parenting does require a lot of sacrifices. While we have the right to get our needs and wants met, often a parent is not able to do everything they want right when they want to - even simple things like walking 7 aisles over (in peace...) to pick up something they sortof want but don't actually need. I do agree that asking your child's permission, letting them tell you no & then verbalizing that you come last is not a great long-term parenting strategy... but I wouldn't assume it's this particular mom's typical parenting either.

 

I often let my daughter make decisions on whether to go back to an aisle for something while shopping. I like to give her power in some decision making to give her wants and needs consideration. I don't believe this stops her heart growing nor do I believe that they get "so much" control nor am I giving away my backbone in letting her make some decisions (Edit: most definitely she would say I am the backbone lol). I think I have sometimes made comments like this mom did and I have probably done it somewhat subconsciously like thinking out loud in a way.

Why would you feel the need to judge a parents' interaction with their child? That is what I ask myself whenever I start to judge anything. It makes me take a look at myself introspectively and see what it is that I need to change about the way I interact or act. Perhaps I will become a better person for seeing a part of myself that needs change.

 

It also could have been "mom" had other things going on outside of this moment but made the comment in this moment. It could have been a combination of feeling under appreciated and not wanting to fight a tantrum she knew was coming and verbalize a inner comment/moment. I know I have had moments when I am just done and have made comments not necessarily directed at the kids. We all have those moments.

 

I agree with this as I know I've done it. Sarcasm is going to get me into trouble and I am aware that I need to curb it more now that my kids are getting older, understanding, and repeating.

 

Omg.. This post goes on too long.

I understand Cheryl's point and do not think she was saying anything too judgmental. I often times see interactions and think to myself... Wow that is crazy?! Just yesterday I was at my son's soccer game and spoke too shy younger sibling age 4 who was sitting near by. He gave me a very quiet response and head nod. His mom reamed him out because he didn't look me in the eyes and didn't respond "yes, mam". It was a WAY over the top reaction to my simple conversation but good insight on her parenting. I went home and chatted about it with my husband and passed judgement about her parenting in my conversation. I think all these little things we do to our children are snapshots of what it looks like a home for that kid. Her older son is wound so tight that he has anxiety... Wonder why?!

So, I am reading Cheryl's post just as she intended it.... Kids are products of their parents and mistake are made often and are part of what shapes them into who they turn out to be.

 

I agree and also think it is healthy to discuss interactions we observe of complete strangers, even when we know they are just a snap shot. We are not doing this mom any harm by discussing her comment and maybe we are planting a seed in ourselves as ways we do not want to handle things.. Heaven knows we will probably all find a ourselves in such a circumstance... overwhelmed, feeling 'last', and dealing with a strongly opinionated child.

 

But just reading your post makes me cringe. We have a very anxious child. We do not "ream" him out or put horrible pressure on him - he does it to himself (perfectionist and worrier), yet often times, I feel like people assume we are too hard on him based on the fact that he has anxiety.

Sure, kids are products of their parents...but they are also products of genetics. I don't automatically assume an anxious kid is the result of a militant parent. Nor do I assume a naughty kid is the result of a pushover parent. There are millions of circumstances influencing a person's response to their child on any given day - I just don't see a 30 second interaction as content rich enough to examine and make conclusions on that person's parenting.

 

Mama23boys - My point was... I can have a conversation with my husband (or Twin_Trip_Mommy with this community) about what we see and how we feel about it. It helps me to become a better parent when I observe others and self reflect. Of course kids come with their own quirks / personalities (believe me... my kids have a bunch!) that can be there without their parents' influence but some of what I observe comes from the environment they are in.

Sometimes I feel like on this forum people "take the opposite" side of an original post. I enjoy reading what people observe. She wasn't asking others thoughts on this situation but rather stating her opinion. IMO

 

I think by posting people are asking for thoughts! That's the whole point of a forum, isn't it? Not trying to be contrary, I really just think in general that we are too hard on each other. If we're just going to post things we observe and not invite judgement, then why don't people post "Hey! I saw an awesome example of motherhood today."

 

Having a conversation with your husband or another person in RL is completely different than posting an observation on a public forum which in it's actual existence is to invite comments. It's fairly obvious from most people's comments that the original post was seen to be judgemental. Making a passing comment about someone could be excused, but to put it into writing, inviting others to participate in your judgement is not something I am comfortable with and therein lies the issue where other posters on this thread seem to have felt the same. If I had been a new member, just joined, and saw a post like this, I may be hesitant to post fearing I may be judged on my parenting. And yes I can see how some posts it seems that people take the opposite sides, but that is nature of forums, everyone has their own opinion and as it was said earlier, no one has to agree. Perhaps the OP could have been worded differently to invite a different discussion instead of the one we are having now. And it is robust to have discussions but I would prefer to see people's personal experience rather than about a stranger they observed for a minute and seriously, take what you need and throw out the rest.

 

thank you, yes.
Sometimes I feel like on this forum people take things posted as if it was posted about them personally. Just because one sees a hint of themselves it does not mean they have to defend themselves. I understand not wanting to be judged for ones actions, heck I don't like being judged for having shared my opinion about this. But I do not see my sharing my opinion and observation as a judgment.

The only way to make a (passing) comment on an internet forum is to put it into writing.. ardon: I did not say I did not want comments and again I do not feel I was judging this parent. Sharing an observation and wanting to talk with others about is not passing a judgment.

As far as a new or old member feeling nervous about posting because of something they read.... really, that would mean no one would ever post anything on a forum. Everything posted could be twisted by a reader to be a judgment. bottle/breast, natural/scheduled c-section delivery, cloth/disposable diapers, spank/no spanking, organic/processed foods, pacifier/thumb, I could go on. This is a discussion forum. I expected discussion about the interaction I witnessed not a pile on this parent and

 

This is an observation.

This is a judgement of your observation.

Making a judgement isn't in & of itself a positive or negative thing. We all make judgements about everything all day long.

What I object to is that you've extended your judgement of this one observed interaction to include the assumption that this is how this mother/child interact all the time to their detriment. As we all know from our own experience, that's not necessarily true. So my opinion is that it's not fair of you to do that.

 

How can you discuss something based on a 30-sec observation without knowing the person in question - to do so is to pass judgement. I am not comfortable in doing so. When you put it into writing, it doesn't then become a passing comment.

Thank you Rachel, you've nailed it on the head.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with Cheryl's conclusion, I think it's silly to say we can't make observations or even judgments based on a quick incident. If you saw a mom backhand a child in public, would you judge? Or assume that she's all rosy the rest of the time? I once saw a woman in Target tell her 3-4 year old daughter to shut the f$&@ up. I judged. And when she saw me staring at her with my mouth hanging open, she told her daughter, "Now you are making me curse in public." I judged again. We are all judged for how we conduct ourselves in public. I think Cheryl was trying to make a larger point about childbearing. Not far off the detachment parenting thread that no one got upset about.

 

I saw this same interaction between a mother and her teen daughter but she ended her sentence with "stupid b-". The daughter asked the simple question "can I get an apple?" I felt pity for that young girl. How did her mothers way of talking to her shape the way she interacts with others? This was the point of my OP. How a child is spoken to when young builds their character and personality. The little girl is probably, if this type of submission from the parent is a typical reaction going to be shocked when she starts interacting with others in school. No I do not know if this is typical but my thought was that it was because of the way the mother responded and how happily the little girl ran off with mother following head down. She did not look like she felt as though she won a battle she had picked. She looked sad. The teen daughter that got treated so disrespectfully did not look shocked with her mothers treatment of her in public so I can only assume she was used to it already.

 

In my experience people who are quick to judge, feel righteousness and superior to others, often have a narrow view of the world and limit their personal growth. What message is this sending to their children?

I think it's silly to assume that the daughter will have difficulty relating to others at school later on just because her Mom chose to do as as the child wanted (go home) instead of further shopping. Judging emotional and physical child abuse is hardly comparable.

 

How is learning from the mistakes of others--real or perceived--limiting personal growth?

 

Maybe because it's someone else's mistake not your own?

 

So then why the do we share our personal experiences. why do those who bring down punishment on people or those who received the punishment say "I hope others learn from this mistake?" Or " we are going to use this situation as an example". And when do learn from someone's else's example aren't we better for it.

 

You could be right.

I have been taught (life's hard lessons, 20 years of therapy, recovery from addiction etc etc) that it is inherently better for your own personal growth to learn from your own mistakes rather than judging (evaluating, observing, concluding) how someone did it differently because their circumstances are always going to be different to yours and therefore not comparable to your inner life. It is much kinder and truer to yourself to look at your own resistances than others' to see where you need to grow. That doesn't mean you can't share experiences and let others choose what they need to gain from it for their own purpose. Whew! I could write paragraph after paragraph on personal growth but I have to go to bed. Thank you for this discussion. It activated a part of me that had been lying dormant in Mommy fugue.

 

I don't think it matters if you are learning from your own mistakes or someone else's in this case. The point many were trying to make, I think, is that there was a judgement that this mom was doing the wrong thing & somehow being a bad parent when there was really no indication in that 30 second glimpse into her life that this was the case. So she didn't feel like dragging her cranky child back for some Kashi bars. I just don't think that action deserves judgement. It is far from being a bad parent and far, far, far from seeing someone emotionally or physically abusing a child. No comparison at all.

 

Zoe refuses to go in Halloween section of stores, we will walk allt he way around just to miss it. People may think I am giving into her but I know it is something she really hates so I do not force her to go to that portion of the store.

 

"I once saw a woman in Target tell her 3-4 year old daughter to shut the f$&@ up. I judged"

Huge difference in witnessing this kind of verbally abusive statement and a mom who won't go back to get Kashi bars and tells here daughter that mommy is always last.

I definitely judge abusive/degrading/cruel parenting that I see while out and about, how could anyone not? But making a generalization about a parenting style based on a 30 second interaction that is not emotionally or physically harmful to a child, just seems a bit much.

 

My boys are 4 1/2 and one has Pollakiuria which is extraordinary daytime urinary frequency. This condition is mostly the result of stress and is more pronounced in boys. If we're in a new surrounding or he's just plain bored, he will ask to go to the bathroom multiple times. If I do allow him to go, either nothing at all comes out, or a very little. This has been going on for over a year now. We've walked into a new place and the first thing out of his mouth is he has to go to the bathroom. At times he realizes that it's a place he'll have fun at like Gymquest, and he quickly forgets about wanting to use the bathroom and off he will go and play.

You have no idea how many times when we are out, the looks I get from people when he asks to go potty. My usual response is "we'll be home in 5 minutes and you can go then" or "you went just before we left the house". 99.9% of the time we'll get home and he'll become occupied with something else and the urge to go potty disappears.

I'm pretty sure if you seen us at Walmart and heard this conversation, I would be labeled a horrible parent because I did not let him go potty.

Like I said, this has been going on for over a year so I know when he truly needs to go and when he's just stressed. But a stranger would not and I would be judged.

 

When did I say she was being a "bad parent"? When did I say the child was cranky? When did I imply her going the 7 aisles with her daughter was going to be a dragging situation? I know I did share that the little girl ran off happily when mother said " okay mommy's last". I know I also said this child and mother will have a rude awakening when the child finds out she will not get things her way and that the world does not revolve around her.

Implying that a child who gets nervous around Halloween decorations and avoids the area in a store or that I am saying a parent dealing with child with a medical condition is a bad parent is NO comparison at all. This is what I meant by people taking a tiny bit of what is shared and putting on themselves as if it was something personal about them. This was about a parent telling the child she is putting herself last. The way she said it. The way the child reacted when it was said and the way the mother reacted after saying it.

This was not a thread to judge this parent it was a thread to discuss this situation.

 

To me the thread was letting a child be in control and letting them decide where to go. Is that not correct?