I don't trust him

I don't know what to do about Ezra (I think 95% of my posts start that way). Is it silly to say that he lies at 2.5? He just figures out what he needs to say in order to get what he wants. A few examples:

He will be upstairs and want to play on the computer. Elias is heading downstairs. I don't like the boys in my office or on my computer and downstairs is the really childproof area so after giving Ezra a billion chances to go down on his own, I pick him up and start carrying him down. He cries "bum bum self" - he wants to go down the stairs by himself on his butt which is usually the way he does it. I put him down. He runs back upstairs and into the office. If I don't put him down he will be inconsolable for an hour (I'm not exaggerating).

He wants to play with something that is out of his reach. I tell him no. I tell him that it is out of his reach because Mommy doesn't want him to play with it. He starts crying and comes to me saying "mommy, huggies" (he is always upset if I get mad at him). Instead of getting a hug, once I have him in my arms, he lunges for the thing he can't have.

I start to put him in the car seat. He cries Self Self (Elias gets into the car seat himself - it's actually one of the best ways I have of keeping them off the road while I'm putting them in, I can trust Elias to just do it). I say to him he can't because he'll just crawl into the front seat and push all the buttons. No No No No. I let him. He crawls into the front seat.

Obviously he is playing me. But what do I say to him? I don't trust you. You are lying to me. It just all seems too harsh for a 2.5 year old. What is he thinking developmentally? Does he understand truth/lies? I hate not "trusting" him when he says he's going to do something. Oh, and I've tried to teach him about "promises" but that's beyond him. I know I give them both waaaay too much credit for understanding things. They just seem so bright and they put things together that just blow me away. But I was explaining to them why the moon sometimes looks like a full circle and sometimes looks like a sliver and my nanny was looking at me like I was crazy...which I probably was. What's reasonable at this age and what should I do.
Thanks

 

It isn't silly to say he lies, at all! I swear it is one of the first things kids learn when they start talking!

Even though he may not fully grasp the concept of truth/lies, he will grasp the concept of consequences. In your shoes I would come up with a set consequence that is executed every time this happens, as soon as it happens. It may be time-out, taking away a toy/privilege, or something else. Each time say something like, "You disobeyed Mommy, so you are going in TO," or, "You lied to Mommy, so you are going in TO." At our house "disobey" is a big word they learned early on because I don't really care what it was they did to disobey, the point was they disobeyed. So since disobeying is the root problem, that is what we focus on.

If you are consistent with the consequences he will quickly learn not to do the behavior. At this age you often have to work on correcting behavior before they can fully grasp the concepts of why they should/shouldn't do something. Immediate consequences are a sure-fire way to accomplish this.

 

Your Ezra and my Jack must be secretly conferring behind our backs. He does all of the same sorts of things! I love him to death but he's strong-willed, stubborn, and drives me crazy half the time. I honestly don't know what to tell you - sorry, I know that's not helpful. I just end up doing a ton of TO's.

:hug:

 

I can't really add anything. I just wanted to say that I think the advice Stacy gave was pretty spot on! If he is telling you that no he will not do X and he does, then there should be an immediate consequence. I think at this age they are just trying to test the limit and see how far they can get before you reign them back in. Set limits and have set consequences and stay consistent with it.

Best of Luck...I know sometimes it is easier said then done. My DS is one that if you give him an inch he will take a mile!

 

You can add my demonchild to the list of conspirators! I could have written your whole post word for word! She does the exact same things: the stairs, the car seat, the hugs! She's a total manipulator! And she spends countless hours on TO which does not seem to affect her whatsoever!

Sorry I am no help at all, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone.

 

OK. So this is the thing. We don't do time outs because so many people say they don't change their behaviour. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that we don't really use any discipline. I haven't read 1-2-3 magic but what I do is just say I'm going to count to three and if you haven't done x I'm going to do it for you. So I carry them downstairs if they aren't going on their own or I put them in their cribs if they aren't climbing in on their own. I take away food that they throw. I guess its more natural consequences. I feel like I should do more but I just don't know what that is.

As always, it's nice to know I'm not alone.

 

Well, I think that the, "I'll do it for you" is often a reward. The whole point was that they didn't want to do what you told them to and you are not only allowing the disobedience, but you are rewarding them by giving them what they want - you to do it for them.

Personally, I believe that discipline, when done by a loving parent with the goal of helping a child learn to self-discipline, is one of the biggest acts of love a parent can do for their child. Unless we teach our kids that actions have consequences, they are going to find out the hard way down the road (suspension from school, loss of friends, even jail). Unless you are willing to provide consequences for their actions, you can't expect them to obey. What's in it for them?

 

Oh, they love going down the stairs themselves and climbing into the cribs themselves. They hate when I do it. Very occasionally, Ezra is feeling exceptionally clingy and will want me to carry him downstairs but I know when that is because he asks right away and if he asks, he gets it so I don't think he needs to manipulate me by disobeying me to get me to carry him downstairs. Most of the time, this is a real consequence. Oy. If I could count the number of times I hear "self, self" every day.... They don't want me doing anything for them!

I think discipline is a fine thing. I just don't know what it will look like with our family and I want to be consistent with it so that's why I'm putting off starting it. I know it's not going to be spanking. I'd put one in their room but they have toys in there and I think they would trash the place. I'm really conscious of being a control freak and I really watch myself to make sure the requests for "obedience" don't turn into a power struggle. I let them change things up quite a bit. I let them eat a banana with a fork if they want or have a couple of olives before dinner even though it's not part of our routine. I let them play upstairs if I don't have a real reason to want them downstairs even though I don't like it. But when I want them downstairs and they aren't willing to go, the only thing I can think of doing is picking them up and bringing them downstairs. What else could the punishment be? They are already hysterical that they didn't get what they wanted (to stay upstairs). I don't know. There must be something I'm not seeing or maybe it's just a developmental phase...

 

I don't see anything wrong with using natural consequences as you've described. I probably wouldn't bother with the 123 and just give them the choice. Sometimes I think the 123 can become a game and it also can be a bit of a power struggle while you count and they wait and decide whether to do or stop doing whatever. I'd ask, "Do you want to go downstairs on your bum or do you want mommy to carry you?" Wait 10 seconds. If he starts going on his own, great. If he doesn't, pick him up and carry him downstairs. If he says he wants to do it himself but yet doesn't, pick him up and carry him down anyway. I personally don't care if mine throw a fit. I just ignore it like I do tantrums.

With the car seat, I would maybe try positive reinforcement. Praise or reward his brother for doing it on his own. Maybe then he will want to do it on his own to get the praise or reward? If that doesn't sound like it will work, then stop letting him try to do it on his own. If you know he will run to the front seat, buckle him in immediately. If he asks for a hug just to reach something, move away from the object before you pick him up.

If you can't tell, we don't do much with formal discipline around here either. I mostly use redirection and distraction as they work well for us still. And for the other things, we do logical consequences and choices. Stuff like, "This toy is making you guys fight. Since you can't play nicely with it, mommy is putting it away." Or, "If you throw that toy, mommy is taking it away." "Do you want to hold mommy's hand in the parking lot or do you want mommy to carry you to the car?" Etc.

I think developmentally he is testing the boundaries and problem solving in order to get what he wants. That's completely normal and developmentally appropriate.

 

Big ditto! We don't do TOs either. I don't have anything against them philosophically, but we were never able to figure out how to do them consistently in a way that felt right to us. Sometimes I will say "You will need to take a time-out if you can't calm down," but that isn't so much a punitive thing (although they do see it that way) as just a way of removing them from the situation.

That type of "Do you want to do it yourself or do you want me to do it for you?" worked pretty well for our kids at that age. That isn't to say they didn't still have fits, but for any given situation, if they had a fit about it once, they were usually a lot more compliant the next several times. The trick is to make it sound like a genuine choice, not a threat. You could not care less whether they do it themselves or not (that's what you want them to think, anyway) -- you just want it to get done.

Second chances are a danger zone. If he says he wants to do it himself but then he doesn't do it, don't give him another chance -- just carry him. We still fall into this trap (especially with Sarah) and I am always sorry afterwards, because she still ends up having a fit, only we've wasted another several minutes thinking she might come around and decide to be cooperative.

However -- sometimes you can break the impasse by letting him save face. I am not one who thinks that adults need to "win" every conflict or the child will think he's in charge. You, as the adult, still win if the task gets done, even if the child thinks he won, because he got to do it his way. So, if he won't cooperate, try being silly, or suggesting that he do it a different way, or pretend to be a bear, or whatever.

I would not focus on truth, lies, and "trust" at this age. I don't think they have that concept (mine are 4, and they are just now developing it). 2-year-olds are all about mastering the situation, not about making deals/promises or understanding someone else's point of view. If you get angry when they don't grasp that, they will know you're angry but won't know why, and that's not productive for anyone.

I know this probably doesn't address all the aspects of your situation, but it hope it helps somewhat!

 

It does. Thanks. One thing that I'm particularly proud of is that I've started to make a big deal about saying they should get into their own cribs. And then I say, if you get into each other's cribs, I'll just have to pick you up and throw you in your own. Well, they always get into each other's cribs and I always chase them around the crib and then get them and make it seem like I'm throwing them into their own. Everybody is laughing the whole time. They are, however, in their own cribs in under 2 minutes and they are happy. Before I started doing this, I'd pick them up and put them in their cribs and they'd both be crying and yelling self self and then I'd have to decide whether to let them down again and let them get back up by themselves because I hate leaving them for the night when they are crying so much. It takes them forever to go to sleep where usually, if they are happy, I don't hear another peep out of them after I turn off the light. Anyways, I am proud of myself for thinking that one up and making a game out of something I want them to do.

I guess we have to take the good whenever we can.

 

Big ditto to Alden. At this age, it's not really accurate to think of it as "lying." Sure, they're saying things to try to get what they want, but it's not the conscious, premeditated behavior of a kid saying he's going to study at a friend's house and going to the arcade instead. And telling a kid they're going to TO "for lying" is going to fly waaaay over their head - I guarantee you that no 2 yo is going to have a clue what that even means! It's too abstract. I do talk to my kids about listening and obeying, and they totally get that, but "lying," forget it.

And I think we have the same kids! Ivy is just like what you said. She dawdles and drags her feet, but still wants to do everything herself. So just like with you, doing whatever it is for her is a punishment/consequence, not a reward. When I tell her to do something and she doesn't listen, the next step is to tell her, "You can do x, or I'll do it for you." (And I try to say it in a matter of fact way, NOT threatening: here are your options, you choose.) If she doesn't get started immediately, I count to 3, and then I will do it for her. She hates it. It's a very effective consequence.

Also, ITA with Alden about giving them a chance to save face. When I enforce a consequence and they have a huge meltdown, I let it go on long enough for them to really feel the consequence, and then offer to make a deal and give them one more chance (on the condition that whatever the unwanted behavior was doesn't happen again). They accept gratefully, and behave wonderfully after that. For us, this makes discipline even stronger. It gives them a chance to practice good behavior again, and 9 times out of 10 they rise to the challenge beautifully. (And if they blow it, NO mercy! )