At my wit's end with 4 year old

Hi Friends,

I am losing it with one of my 4 year old daughters. She is ridiculously stubborn and is making mornings miserable for everyone.

Every morning I fight with her about getting dressed, brushing her teeth and walking out to the car. It begins with her ignoring my request that she get dressed. When I finally get her out of her chair and over to her clothes she claims she needs help and can't dress on her own. This is not true. She gets dressed by herself for the babysitter on the two days that I work. No matter my approach she constantly claims that "she can't" without help. Today I ended up forcing her into her clothes and then telling her to brush her teeth. Again she claims she can't even though she does it at night all by herself and has been doing it for a year. Today, in addition to not being able to dress herself she claimed she couldn't "walk" to the car- she needed to be carried. I actually got in the car without her and started it to show her I would leave her if she didn't come but she just stood on the porch crying- but never budged. I ended up carrying her to the car because I couldn't leave her alone on a porch and I needed to get them to school.

She does this no matter where we are going- school, the zoo, a picnic, shopping. She wants to go to these places but when it comes time to getting ready she refuses to do what I ask. On weekends I have actually left her with DH and/or put her in timeouts to show what happens when you don't get ready when you should. But on days that they have school, I can't do that without having her skip school which means her sister gets punished along with her.

I have watched her with the sitter on days that they go to school. The sitter says "Let's get dressed now" and they both get up and get dressed without any assistance. They then walk to the bus stop and hop on a bus to school. So...why can't she do these things for me or her father?

Every morning ends up with someone crying (sometimes me!) and I can't do it anymore.

Can you help me? I need feedback, insight and suggestions!

Thank you!

Lisa

 

:hug99: I don't know what to advice, I think if I were in that situation with those things going on I would take her in to the doctor and rule out that anything may be going on. Sorry I am not much help.

 

I don't know what to tell you to do, but she has clearly chosen this as her battleground of wills. You hear about this kind of thing with food all the time.

I don't have the school problem, so I have more time to wait someone out.

In your case I might decide, okay, fine, she can't dress herself, etc. I will choose her clothes, I will dress her, I will brush her teeth. There would be no requests first, though. It would be, "Okay, let's get you dressed," and then we'd do it, and so on.

Later, when there was a privilege of older kids that she wanted, I might tie that to the dressing herself. "Oh, no, that's for big girls who dress themselves, feed themselves and brush their own teeth. Your sister can do that, but you aren't ready for that yet." (This could even be something like her sister getting to watch a video while she gets "put down for a nap," or something like that.)

This is just the first thing I thought of off the top of my head.

Right now she has you in a position where she is controlling what you do, so you have to reframe it so you are in charge. So, if she refuses to dress herself, don't ask her to do it any more. Just come in and do it yourself in a very businesslike manner. That will be quicker and less stressful for you, and she is no longer "making" you dress her. You are dressing her because *you* have decided it is time for her to be dressed.

I would still tie it to loss of some privileges (not while you are dressing her; I would say nothing at all then except things like "now your shirt"). People who don't act like big girls "aren't ready" for big-girl things/activities. They get to take naps or rests or whatever instead. I would also be very businesslike in presenting that, almost shrugging, like "I wish you could, but that's for big girls."

Good luck.

 

I can't help much, but I can tell you that I go through almost the exact same thing with my just turned 4 yr old. He is driving me crazy with the stubborn behavior. He too will behave perfectly for anyone besides my DH and myself. He also claims he can't get dressed by himself, brush his teeth, etc. He also refuses to poop on the potty to the extent that he has been to the doctor 3 times for enemas b/c he holds it forever- even while on miralax daily. I too am at my wits end and I hope you get some helpful comments here. I have considered going to a psychologist for help and if I do, I will let you know what they say. This is beyond normal hard-headed behavior in my opinion.

This may work for you even though we have had a difficult time keeping in in action, it does help when we can do it:

We took a positive discipline class that stressed each child get 10-20 minutes of uninterrupted time with Mom and/or Dad every day doing something they want to do. This means no cooking,cleaning,watching t.v. but undivided attention, alone with the parent. When we actually find the time to do this, it works wonders with the tantrums and he actually listens. What I try to do is play a game or draw( his choice) with him and call it special Mommy and Aaron time. I also set a timer and tell him that when it rings, Mommy has to cook dinner or fold laundry (insert chore here) and he can help if he wants. Sometimes I give him more than 10 minutes. It really sounds like very little time, but you'd be shocked at how difficult it can be to give each child your undivided, unshared attention when you have 3 kids. When you first start this, they really hate it when special time is over and behavior may get worse at first. Once the pattern is established and the know they will get this time, behavior improves. It also helps if your partner can do this alone with the children as well. Do not share this time, just you and the one child. I hope this helps with you daughter. It sounds like she wants all the attention and drama focused on her just like my 4 yr old does. Maybe a little positive attention all alone with mom is all she needs. Good luck

Kelly

 

QUOTE(KellyJ @ Nov 28 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]512459[/snapback]
We took a positive discipline class that stressed each child get 10-20 minutes of uninterrupted time with Mom and/or Dad every day doing something they want to do. This means no cooking,cleaning,watching t.v. but undivided attention, alone with the parent. When we actually find the time to do this, it works wonders with the tantrums and he actually listens. What I try to do is play a game or draw( his choice) with him and call it special Mommy and Aaron time. I also set a timer and tell him that when it rings, Mommy has to cook dinner or fold laundry (insert chore here) and he can help if he wants. Sometimes I give him more than 10 minutes. It really sounds like very little time, but you'd be shocked at how difficult it can be to give each child your undivided, unshared attention when you have 3 kids. When you first start this, they really hate it when special time is over and behavior may get worse at first. Once the pattern is established and the know they will get this time, behavior improves. It also helps if your partner can do this alone with the children as well. Do not share this time, just you and the one child. I hope this helps with you daughter. It sounds like she wants all the attention and drama focused on her just like my 4 yr old does. Maybe a little positive attention all alone with mom is all she needs. Good luck


This sounds like a great idea to me, too! We used to do this when my sons were small.

 

This might be off base but maybe she isn't doing it not for control but because she wants more interaction with you. I work outside the home so I know I never feel like I spend enough time with the kids. Maybe your dd is refusing to get dressed or other things by herself just to spend time with you. I know with my three little ones they seem to take it by turn who is Mr or Mrs Grumpy and whines and cries in the morning. Usually whoever it is does better if I can slow down (very hard to do in the morning) and just snuggle them for a moment or two. Maybe your dd just needs the extra attention. Maybe she isn't a morning person and has a hard time getting going in the morning so that is when you see this side of her? Does she act this way in the afternoons? If it is only morning then maybe starting 15 min earlier would help ease her into doing the things she needs to do. At any rate I am completly sympathic to you because I know how hard it is to get little ones out the door in the morning and to make it on time.

Mary

 

I have had a problem like that with one of my twins. For us, it has something to do with the fact that he needs more attention from me. Whenever we hit a phase like that I take it to remind me to snuggle with him more and give him a little more attention and love. Then he just sort of works himself out of it and we're fine again. We actually had a "phase" that got so bad that he "forgot" how to go potty in the toilet and started having a lot of accidents. I just stood my ground repeating that he had to at least try to dress himself and was stern with him about the accidents but overall just poured on the love and we worked our way out of it. I hope you find a way to work it out for you and your daughter!!

 

My boys pull stunts like that from time to time, and I agree with using privileges as leverage. In our house, Playstation is the currency of choice, and a bedtime story is a close second.

Hayden likes to say he "can't" do anything when he's getting ready for bed. He'll lay there and whine and moan and not put on his pajamas, say he's too tired to brush his teeth, etc. I let him know he has 5 minutes to get done and I'll set a timer, and if he's not done, he'll have to go directly to bed while I read a story just to Brady in a different room. I've only had to follow through on that threat twice. Now, while he'll still complain a bit and lay there, as soon as I tell him, "I guess you don't want a story, then," he's on his feet and getting ready for bed.

In almost any other case, Playstation gets taken away for bad behavior, which includes not listening, which basically is what your daughter is doing. I've found taking it away in 5-minute increments is most effective, because they know what they've lost but they can still protect the other 15 minutes they get each day by being good.

When they were younger, taking away TV/video time or a favorite stuffed animal was effective, too.
It only takes a couple times of following through for them to get the message.

Good luck!

 

Do you think she'd respond well to a sticker chart -- you could put it on the wall of her room, and every day that she gets dressed etc. without a fuss, she gets to pick out a sticker and put it up....if she goes for a whole week or two with "good" stickers, then she gets some treat (it could be a trip to McD's, or to the library, or a small toy, or an extra bedtime story -- whatever you want to reward with).

My almost-4-year-old is just like this -- every day can be a battle, depending on her mood. The sticker chart is the only thing we've found that generally works....

We've also tried taking things away when she doesn't listen -- sometimes that works, but other times it just causes a huge tantrum, and who has time for that in the morning when you're already late for school?!?!?

 

I think you've been given excellent suggestions so far. Everything from trying to do a daily Mommy/Daughter special time, to a sticker chart, to taking away privledges. All of those things could help. My only other suggestion would be something like setting a timer and allowing her to choose her clothes if she is dressed by the time the timer goes off. If she is not dressed by the time the timer goes off then Mommy gets to choose the clothes and get her dressed. Most 4 year olds like being in charge and this is something that she could take charge of. Also, sometimes if I am feeling discouraged with not listening I'll say, "Okay, I'm going to cover my eyes and count to 10, let's see if you can 'beat' me by being dressed before I get to 10". I cover my eyes and count slowly (peeking to make sure the boys win!) They are SO THRILLED with themselves when they 'beat mommy' in our game... Try making things fun, and giving out little rewards when either girl does do what you are trying to get them to do. Hopefully that will help! Good luck! Did you ever think your 4 year old would be getting the best of you! It's not something I ever imagined - but man they are smart!

 

I did a sticker chart with my DD when she was 4 - she had the same issues. If she made all the goals (brush hair, teeth, eat, get dressed, not necessarily in that order) by the time we had to walk out the door for 5 days in a row, she would get rewards like having a popcorn/movie night on the weekend or get to stay up late on a weekend or something like that. It worked well for us and I dropped it before she was 5. Now that she's 6, she decided she can't put on her socks and I have to do it. I've now started to wake her up and immediately put socks on her.

 

Shes knows how to push your buttons and she knows it. Lauren does the same with me. She knows what gets me and does it.
For me its walking away that works at times. If she knows your going to do it for her she has no incentive. Try on a day off to show her. Even if you have to leave her half naked, walk away when she misbehaves. I use" the big girl line" alot. Some days she fight me others are good.
Do the same thing everytime she doesn't listen...either walk away or a punishment that works. Not big into rewarding for a one time behaviour...kids learn its like a bribe and will use it to their advantage. Reward her when she can do it alot not one day. Praise her silly!!!!

 

Hi...I had this same problem with my boys and then when my daughter was born, I just couldn't take it anymore...what actually worked immediately for us was making a huge posterboard list of all the things they can do on thier own, they each got a column and they told me what to write (ie. I can get dressed by myself, I can walk to the car by myself) We then decorated it and hung it the living room, where everyone could see it, we showed it to Daddy and everyone who came over, and then when we had a battle of wills, we would get the sign and say "see you said you could do this, if you can't then we should take it off the list " That horrified them! They were so proud of what they wrote they didn't want to change it and eventually...we never used the sign ( we do still have it though!) The hardest part was staying calm about it and not giving in. I decied to use natural consequences so if one wouldn't walk to the car or use the potty, we would be late for Gymnastics or one time we even missed swimming (which killed me because, I enjoyed it and the other brother would miss out unfairly) but eventually the brother not causing trouble would say come on just do it and he would!! I won't lie, it did take a few weeks and a lot of tears (mine and thiers!) But it was well worth it!! Good luck!

 

My son did that to me. It was time to go to preschool and he was wandering around in his undies and refused to get dressed. I said OK and started to take him out to the car in just his undies. He freaked out and said "I can't go in my underwear! I have to wear clothes!" I told him that he chose not to get dressed and it was his problem if he was naked all day. He begged me not to take him like that and I said, "OK, just this once, but you have 2 minutes to get dressed to go." He hustled and got it done. I made sure to praise him for being so fast and spent some extra time with him that night "just because".

I would load up her clothes, toothbrush, shoes etc in a box and tell her "Too late, it's time to go. You can get ready at school." The key is to sound like you really don't want to give them a second chance but since you are nice and in charge you will..... just this once.

 

I've seen some good ideas. I especially like the "I can do this myself" chart.


I'm not a pop psychology type of person so my gut instinct would be that she's doing this because she knows she can get away with it. Sure, it gives her interaction but you are home with her 5 days a week so it's not like she's starving for it. She understands that she doesn't have to do these things because you will do them for her. You've proved that. Tonight I would make a list (with drawings) of the things she is expected to do for herself and show it to her. Tell her that tomorrow she is supposed to do those things or they just won't get done. Then, follow through. If she doesn't get dressed or brush her teeth, so be it. Let her go to school like that for a couple of days and see if it makes a difference. Even at age 4, peer pressure can be enough to get her to change her mind. With the not walking to the car situation, I'd hold her by the hand and take her there. Don't stress about it anymore, don't make it a battleground, and it will eventually cease to be one.

Alternatively, you could take your other DD to school and take the stubborn one back home to be confined to her room until school is over. You told her you'd leave her if she didn't perform her responsibilities and that would be a way to follow through with this threat.

Finally, we have a system of tickets at our house. I have three simple rules posted on the refrigerator and if you break one of those rules you lose a ticket (just a piece of construction paper attached to a magnet on the fridge). Once the girls lose all their tickets, they are confined to their room for the rest of the day. Believe me, a four year old knows what this means and is perfectly capable of being confined to their room. It took only one time of this for Ainsley and twice for Sierra before they were pros at following the three rules. Our rules are "Listen the first time", "No climbing on the furniture", and "No taking things from others." You can chose any rules you want but those were the most important three to us and you want to keep the rules list short so it is easy to remember. We started out with 5 tickets and we've worked our way down to three now.

My girls have massive amounts of energy and are extremely high spirited so it's important to try to keep some semblance of order around them. I don't want to give you the wrong impression that they are always well-behaved, they aren't at all, but we do follow through on threats and that makes all the difference. Now, if we could only get them to be more respectful to their elders....

Good luck!

 

I actually saw on an episode of Super Nanny where the girl was refusing to get dressed to go to school in the mornings so the supernanny's advice was to tell her if she doesn't get dressed then she is going to school in pjs. So the next day, the girl started with her normal fit about getting dressed and the mom and dad said "Fine, you don't want to get dressed? Then you are going to school in your pajamas." The little girls mouth dropped open in surprise and horror at the idea of having to go to school in her pjs. She got dressed and didn't seem to fuss about it anymore. I don't know if this works for everyone but it may be worth a shot? And if she ends up going to school in her pjs one day, so be it. Maybe she will be uncomfortable enough when the other kids see her like that she won't have any interest in doing it again.