anyone NOT use time outs?

Conventional wisdom these days is that time outs are the way to go - everyone seems to use them, and they seem to be very effective. But I have some misgivings, and I wanted to start a post to see if anyone else has decided (or at least considered) not going the time out route, and why.

First, let me say that I am sure that time outs are effective at getting your child to stop doing what you don't want him to do. So I'm not doubting their effectiveness.

What I'm doubting is whether I want my child to learn what is right and wrong through what is essentially behavior modification, rather than through discussion, explanation, talking through why they did something and why not to do it again. Time outs are basically a nicer, no contact version of the same psychology that makes spanking effective. The child learns not to do something because they don't want to suffer the negative consequence that will result, whether that is spanking or being put in time out. This is behavior modification. Lab rats learn through this method as well. I just wonder if that's how I want my kids to learn.

I think it's important that kids know why something is wrong, so they are motivated not to do it next time because they know and believe in a good reason not to do it.....not because they don't want a time out (or a spanking).

DH and I were discussing how we were disciplined growing up. DH's father used a belt. I asked DH what he learned from that, and he said he learned that being swatted with a belt hurt. He doesn't remember what he got swatted for, just that it hurt. My grandfather used heavy-handed spanking on my father, and my father says all he learned is that his dad was strong. I fear that maybe all kids learn from time outs is that it sucks to sit in a corner - but shouldn't they really be learning why whatever they did to get put in the corner was wrong?

I was never spanked as a kid, and I never got formal time outs either. I do recall a few times where I was sent to my room to 'think about what I did', and then my parents and I talked about it afterward. No form of behavior modification was used on me, and I very rarely acted out or got into trouble.

Okay, I've rambled enough, so I'm curious to hear whether anyone else has had doubts about using time outs. Let me also say that I have absolutely nothing against parents who choose time outs, and frankly I'll probably end up using them myself because I know they work and I want to raise well-behaved children. But before I go down that road, I want to really think through whether it's the right thing for our family, and whether there is another way to teach children right and wrong without resorting to behavior modification techniques.

I'm not going to say that I don't want to start a debate, because really I kind of do. :blush: But hopefully if we do get a debate going it can be a reasoned, respectful one, since there really is no 'right' answer to this question - just different perspectives from different people. Thanks!

 

We do use time outs, sometimes I think they're effective, sometimes not so much, but my girls are only 2.5 too. However, I ALWAYS talk to them about why they're in time out and what they did wrong, why we need to be nice, etc. I would never rely on the time out, by itself, to correct my child's behavior. That being said, a 2.5 year old will look at you, smile, say I'm sorry and do it again in 30 min. These are my first kids, but I'm figuring it will just take a lot of consistantcy, repetition and some maturity on their part before some things really sink in.

 

We use time outs, but honestly, we don't have to use them too often. I give the kids a warning and tell them that whatever behavior they are doing is not okay and if they continue, they will go to timeout. Then, if they did get timeout, afterwards, I sat with them and talked about what it was they did and why it was wrong and they apologize and we hug. Now that they are older, I actually ask them afterwards to tell me why they were put in time out and see if they can tell me and then I ask them to tell me why it was bad so I put the ownership on them. It seems to be working well.

 

My twins are one, so not yet old enough ... but I had some thoughts and thought I would add ...

I think a time out, in itself, is not necessarily teaching them anything ... like you said. However, I have a friend who does time outs (for her 3 year old) and sets the timer for 3 minutes and all that ... when the timer dings, the child has to come to Mommy and they talk about why she was in time out and why what she did is wrong and then she will hug her child and say that she still loves her but not the behavior. I have never questioned or discussed this with her ... just been a witness on several occasions ... I think it is a good way to do timeouts.

That being said, I think all of us (children included) wager things in our heads a little ... such as, I REALLY want to throw sand right now ... is it worth it to me to have to sit for a few minutes ... hmmm ... yeah, then the sand gets thrown ... just like when I think ... hmmm ... that Lindt truffle looks yummy, is it worth the extra mile I will have to run ... and you know ... it usually is ...

I went to a seminar a few weeks ago that was really helpful ...

As far as discipline and communication. She says you should use this F.E.E.L. when you are talking to/playing with your child. The F. is following and it doesn't really apply here ... but can explain if anyone is interested. The E. is empathy ... which applies ... the other E. is encouragement (as opposed to praise) which doesn't apply ... and the L. is limits ... SO, as far as empathy and limits. She said to use this type phrase when disciplining your child ... I KNOW you think throwing sand is really fun (empathy-so your child feels that you "get" her) but sand is not for throwing (make it sound like a universal LAW not b/c "you said so"). Then to give your child a choices but no more than three ... "you can scoop the sand into the bucket, you can dump the sand out of the bucket, or you can build with the sand ... but sand is not for throwing. If you choose to throw the sand, you choose to get out of the sandbox (setting the limit)" ... if the sand is thrown again, pick the child up and say "I see that you have chosen to get out of the sandbox" .. then you have to stick to your guns ... but she said that this type communication is hard at first but the more and more you practice at it the more it comes second nature ... and it tends to eliminate "power struggles" b/c you are giving your child the choices. The follow and encouragement ... were two other completely different topics ... but the talk was super interesting ... she has a book out that I can recommend if anyone is interested pm me. She is a play therapist ... I don't have her name handy right now but can find it if anyone wants the website ... she was so interesting!

Anyway, kind-of off topic of time-outs but I thought maybe using her ideas may help from getting to the timeout point!

Good luck ... and reading the 1-4 forums always freak me out for what is in my future =) =)

 

A timeout isn't simply putting them in a chair and then letting them out after a specified period of time. If they don't know why they're being punished or what the correct behavior should be, it won't work. I put them in timeout stating why they're getting a timeout and if after a warning and a chance to correct the behavior (with a 3-count) they continue. The only time I skip the warning is for hitting because we have a zero tolerance policy here on hitting. The timeout is a time to calm down and think about their actions. We talk again when they're done.

I don't think simply talking is enough at this age. Later, yes, but right now they need that time to wind back down before they're ready to listen.

 

QUOTE(debid @ Jul 30 2008, 08:34 AM) [snapback]904316[/snapback]
I don't think simply talking is enough at this age. Later, yes, but right now they need that time to wind back down before they're ready to listen.

Excellent point -- so for those with older children, when do you move beyond time outs and simply talk?

 

QUOTE(debid @ Jul 30 2008, 11:34 AM) [snapback]904316[/snapback]
A timeout isn't simply putting them in a chair and then letting them out after a specified period of time. If they don't know why they're being punished or what the correct behavior should be, it won't work. I put them in timeout stating why they're getting a timeout and if after a warning and a chance to correct the behavior (with a 3-count) they continue. The only time I skip the warning is for hitting because we have a zero tolerance policy here on hitting. The timeout is a time to calm down and think about their actions. We talk again when they're done.

I don't think simply talking is enough at this age. Later, yes, but right now they need that time to wind back down before they're ready to listen.


I agree with Debi. We've just recently started TOs here and only for selected behaviors. At the age mine are, I do give warnings (3-count also) and when they get out of TO, I explain why they were there again. Right now it's a nice little 'reset' button for them.

I do anticipate when they're older being able to discuss with them and have them make the right choices, but there will still be consequences to those choices. That's pretty much how I was brought up. As I'd walk out the door with friends, I got "remember the R word and the C word...Responsibility and Choices. The choices I make directly affect the choices those around me make"

And as far as TOs being behavior modification vs. understanding. I think a lot of life, even for us adults is about behavior modification. As we get older, there are different reasons we choose to do something, but it's still often to avoid something negative from happening. Be that something negative, hurting someone's feelings or physical pain to ourselves or losing your job. Hope that makes sense, I feel like I was starting to ramble!

 

Very interesting discussion and I hope you don't mind me coming in on this since here is a disclaimer- DH and I are both psychologists and DH used to be the behavioral specialist in an inpatient child psychiatric hospital facility.

You are right, time outs are a behavioral technique to help teach children that there are consequences to actions. So if my DD jumps on the couch, the logical consequence (in our house) is that she goes into the pnp for a time out. Its not punishment though and there is no yelling. I'm not saying that you said there was, I'm just making this point. Its a very matter of fact thing- actually DH and I kind of act bored by it, so that she gets no extra attention for jumping on the couch.

Since our kids are only 17 months old (almost), they understand language, but I can't fully explain to her how the behavior of jumping on the couch is very dangerous (SIDE NOTE: my sister broke her arm at 2 years old from jumping on and falling off our couch). But she is able to make the connection between the action of jumping on the couch and the reaction of mom or dad placing her in a pnp for a minute without toys.

When she gets older and can understand cause and effect in a more abstract way, we'll teach her the WHY of not jumping on the couch, but for now time outs are to try to stop the behavior by pairing it with something that is not reinforcing or fun. So eventually we won't need to use time outs, but until that day we will use them for things that are dangerous.

 

QUOTE(BridgePort @ Jul 30 2008, 09:55 AM) [snapback]904371[/snapback]
Excellent point -- so for those with older children, when do you move beyond time outs and simply talk?

When my son was six we stopped doing time outs with him. Until then we talked after a time out. With him we did very few time outs after the age of three.

 

Our guys are still a bit little to really get time outs. For a while we did it with them for biting, but it wasn't really working yet.

From what I've read though, people use time outs in two main ways. Some as a punishment akin to being sent to one's room (the behaviour modification you refer to; negative reinforcement). Some as "calm down" time: a space for both children and adults to calm oneself if one's mood/actions are getting out of hand. This is reflected in the type of space offered for time out: a quiet corner/stair with no distrations or a cosy comforting space.

Whichever is used there is also the element of enabling the adult present to calm themselves too and give them thinking space before the child comes out of time out. Where it perhaps become more averse and similar to spanking is when the child won't stay in time out - how does one 'force' it upon them?

Whichever is the function of time out in an individual family, I do think that the best time outs are the ones that entail talking things through afterwards and then a fresh start with no further recriminations. Also the calming sort of time out will hopefully teach the child to manage their own emotions.

 

We're using time outs with the girls already. They're both so stubborn and so determined to do things their way. So, for example, M was climbing and marching on the coffee table 10 or 20x a day easily. I started time outs and she never does it any more. I'd tell her, "get down, we don't climb on the table." and she'd giggle and march and play, so I'd say, "mommy said get down" and she'd giggle and march, so I'd say "you're going to do time out if you don't get down". At first, she didn't know what that meant, so she'd giggle and play. Then I'd take her down from the table, sit her on the floor in our time out area and say "now you have to sit in time out because mommy said get down. we don't play on the table." I'd just sit there with my hands on her waist for 30 seconds or so. She fussed and I'd say "look at mommy" ...when she looked at me, i'd repeat "we don't climb on the table." and we'd give hugs and say "i love you" and the whole thing would be over. I had to do that 3 times on the first day, 1 time on the 2nd day and now I've only had to do it once in the last 2 weeks. So, yeah, I'd say it was effective. We did talk about what she was doing wrong. The timeout was only used as a way to remove her from the situation. It has worked just as effectively with G and the little hitting/pushing habit she was developing. Life is so much better now!

 

You can't reason and use logic with a toddler. They just don't have the verbal and intellectual skills yet. We don't use time outs much anymore. Now they lose privledges when breaking the rules of the house. And I've found that I can start to reason with them now. When Jacob refused to help me, I reminded him that I always help him when he asks. I explained that we are a family and help each other. He thought for a second and then agreed to help...without whining or complaining.

But at 1-4, forget it. You try reasoning with a toddler and let me know how it goes.

 

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I absolutely see the benefit of a cooling off period, and then explaining the situation and talking it through. My understanding of the 1-2-3 Magic approach of time outs is that it involves very little talking, and is much more of a strict behavior modification approach. The purpose of the time out in that approach is to get the child to associate something negative with the behavior, so they learn not to do the behavior. Effective, but not the way I want my kids to learn. I'm much more okay with the idea of using a time out to cool off, and then discussing the issue. Yes, they may not 'get' the discussion part early on, but then again we do all kinds of things for them that they don't 'get' right away. We talk to them from day one, even though they can't fully comprehend us and start talking back for many months. I like to think that the discussion is getting through on some level, even though they can't fully appreciate it yet.

Now, I know I'm going to regret saying this (and I'm crossing fingers and knocking wood right now), but I don't think my kids have done anything yet that I would find worthy of putting them in timeout for. Maybe that's why I have the hang up!? If I had biters or climbers or tantrum throwers, I probably wouldn't even question it, because I'd want to do whatever worked to get them to stop. So I'm thanking my lucky stars for being in this situation, but at the same time I know this can't hold out forever, and they will do something (many things) wrong. Right now, our only issue is that they want to watch Hi-5 all day, and we've told them once in the morning and once in the afternoon is all they get. If they whine for it at other times, we remind them they've already had their quota and say let's go play in the playroom, and off we go. So I kind of feel as though we are reasoning with toddlers, and they do seem to be getting it. We'll see how long it holds out. :unsure: But in the meantime, I'm not going to assume that they can't listen to reason just because they're little - I'll wait until they demonstrate to me that they can't listen to reason.

(Crossing fingers and knocking wood again for good measure.)