5 bottles a day to 4 bottles a day

so my feeding nightmare continues. when i last saw GI (about 2-3 weeks ago) they suggested that i try going every 5 hours rather than ever 4 hours with feedings...well call me stubborn but i just wouldn't do it. i'm still an ounce counter (i know i need to loosen up on it and things will go easier but going from a steady 25oz to barely 15oz just doesn't seem right to me)....so we were using similac advance milk based formula, feeding every 4 hours with 5oz bottles. the feeds would take 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours with only 3-3 1/2oz total. i tried going smaller meals more frequently but it would still take an hour or more to feed them so i was literally feeding every 2 hours.

well i came up with a theory on thursday...perhaps the boys had developed a milk allergy/intolerance. the problem started on soy but got way worse on milk sooooo i thought i would call my ped for some samples of nutrimagen to test it out. no, they said...you need to talk to GI. UGH! so i went out and spent my 30 bucks for a tiny little container to test my theory. well i'm filling the bottles up to 4oz (makes 5oz total with formula mix and 1tsp rice per oz of water) and feeding them every 4 hours. i get a consistent 3 1/2 to 4oz out of every feed but it still takes an hour, after an hour i stop. i hate wasting so much expensive formula but if they are going to eat in another 2 1/2-3 hours what's the point, right?

so, so far the milk intolerance thing seems to be helping, somewhat anyways. the boys don't fight the bottle and suck much more aggressively than with the milk based and they aren't screaming when you put the bottle to their mouths. rather they are accepting of the bottle and once they get going they will suck pretty good for a couple of ounces.

but i'm wondering, since i'm not getting the full 4-5oz out of them every 4 hours should i just make 5oz bottles and go every 5 hours, dropping from 5 bottles a day to 4 bottles a day??

how old were your little ones when you made this transition and how much were they eating??

oh and i should mention that they are displaying no signs of reflux...no crying during or after the feeds, no arching and FINALLY no projectile/forceful throw up, or even much spit up. (this was also the case when we were on milk too so i know reflux is not the problem).

thanks!

 

My babies are just a week or so older than your boys. I have two babies that eat very differently. But I do have one that takes a 7 ounce bottle 4 times a day.

The other take anywhere from 5-7 ounces every 2.5-3 hours. (5 bottles a day)

They both go to sleep between 8-9pm and sleep until 6-7am.

I think it would be fine to try 4 bottles if you they can take a little more at each feed.

Good luck. I have been reading your posts...sorry you are having such a hard time.

 

Guess you just need to experiment with different things... My babies are 7 mos old and still have 5 feedings per 24 hours. 4 feedings doesn't seem like enough to me for 4 mo. old babies? My friend's twins are 8.5 mos old and still have 5 feedings, but who knows. Think it's a little odd that the GI would suggest this.

As for the taking 1-1.5 hours to eat, mine used to do this. They did have acid reflux (one still does) and this was part of the problem but the other undiscovered part was that since it was taking so long for them to eat they weren't as hungry at the subsequent feeding. It was very hard to break myself of the habit b/c i wanted them to eat but the best thing I ever did to straighten out their eating was to only give them 30-45 min to eat and then stop trying them at all. The next feeding they will eat more if they need it. It's hard to let the babies regulate themselves but it eventually works and they actually do eat what they need and want. And they still now go through weird times where one day they eat 8 oz every feed and one day they eat 5 oz so I've decided that they will do what they will do! It is still tough though!

Good luck and hope you get it figured out soon... Oh and the milk intolerance thing I think (b/c I researched this with mine) usually causes violent vomiting or blood in the stool. More likely they are just in a weird phase and it will pass.

 

I don't have any advice but I just wanted to say that I'm glad they are taking their bottles a bit better now, yay!!

 

I'm glad you decided to try the Nutramigen after all & that it seems to be helping.

 

well it's only helping SLIGHTLY i mean there is some minor improvements, i.e. they don't fight the bottle in the beginning and suck consistently for 2-3oz and then stop. once they stop sucking it's near impossible for them to take more and get them restarted. they constantly turn their bodies into my chest kick and flare their arms all around, move their head from side to side, shut their mouths so i can't get passed the gums and chew on the nipple doing "pretend" sucks.

they can go for 4-5 hours and eat 3oz and then the next feed, same thing, 3oz. i can usually get 3oz out of alex in about 15-20 minutes and 2oz out of river in about 20-30min but then after that EVERYTHING goes down hill.

this morning i thought, after 45 minutes and 4 baby exchanges later, hey why not try the Y cuts and see if it helps any maybe they are getting too tired from sucking so hard...well they choked and alex threw up all over the place (me included) and river wouldn't even accept it. so back to the level 4...total feed time 1 hour 15 minutes with a huge amount of struggling and fighting with both babies to keep them still.

so the nutrimagen is only helping a teeny tiny bit, not that much. feeds still take a ridiculous amount of time and at 27 bucks a can for 14 4oz bottles i'm not sure how much longer i can afford to keep them on this stuff considering i go through the cans in 2 days...that's almost 100 bucks a week!!!

they started eating at 6 this morning, i'm not feeding again until 11am. i hope it goes better. but going every 4 hours, even if they only took 2 1/2oz, they still only take in about 3oz. total for the day i'm lucky to get 15oz total.

i just don't understand what the problem is.

i thought maybe the zantac at night might be an issue so they stopped that and no improvement...no reflux issues either. the reflux is pretty well under control.

so that's reflux, thrush and ear infections completely ruled out. now what?

i agree that dropping a bottle this early seems too young that's why i wouldn't do it but at this point i don't know that i have a choice. they just don't want it.

this has been going on consistently for TWO WEEKS. if this is just a phase when will it end??? ughhh it's driving me INSANE!

btw - how many of you recycle your formula...like let's say you have a 5oz total bottle and they take 3oz, do you pour the remaining 2oz into a new bottle and put it back in the fridge or pour it out??? i'm thinking there can be very little backwash with that tiny little hole in the nipple but i could be wrong. just curious.

i'm going to GI today, an hour north and 2 bucks in toll money, and i'm almost certain they are going to tell me nothing just like last time.

i just wish someone would tell me why these boys have ZERO interest in food.

oh and i have tried giving them hylands teething tablets before a meal and no luck. it doesn't work.

and the worst feed of the day is the morning feed. they eat last at 9pm and are in bed by about 10pm. they sleep until i wake them up between 6-7am and that's when i struggle the most to make it to AT LEAST 3oz.

i really can't believe that some of you are getting 7-8oz in your twins in under an hour. that boggles my mind!!

 

Well, I'm not an expert in feeding issues, but mine were definitely still eating every 3 hours at that point - sometimes didn't make it 3 hours. They were 6-8 months before we were consistently on bottles every 4 hours. So, later than that and firmly on solids before we went to every 5.

Honestly, it sounds like you are trying so many things in such quick succession that you can't tell if anything is working. I'd give each thing at least a few days or ideally a week or two to see if it makes a difference.

Good luck.

 

One thought - you say they suck really well for 2-3 ounces. Have you tried 3 ounce bottles more frequently? I think mine were on like 4 ounce bottles every 3 hours at 4 months, and I know they didn't always finish them (and I had 37 1/2 weekers with no weight issues, so they probably ate more at 4 months than yours are going to).

 

I know all of the books say not to, but our boys used to waste SO much formula when they were newborns. So if there was more than 1 oz left, and it had been out for less than 1 hour we would put the bottle back in the fridge and use it for their very next feeding (we would "top it off" with fresh formula). We still do this and have never had a problem. And we are very strict about putting the bottle back in the fridge as soon as we realize they aren't going to finish, usually well under an hour. We do "take the chill" off the bottles usually before feeding them by placing the bottle in warm water, but the milk is still quite chilled and not quite to room temperature before feeding them, so we are sure not to over warm their bottles just in case we "recycle" that formula.

I'm not telling other people they should do this, I'm just saying that we've been doing this for 4+ months now without issue

 

Mine are the same age as yours, and honestly, still eat six to seven bottles a day. Granted, they don't always finish the 5 oz, sometimes they only eat 3. But at this point, they are still too young to just take a feeding away and let them "wait" until they will finish the full 5.

 

:headbang: :headbang:

ok so here's the update...i go to GI in 2 hours (they are NOT going to like me when they are done seeing us)....they ate at 6am, took 1 hour 15 minutes to get 4oz in one and 3oz in the other with one throwing up because i tried the Y cut nipple and he choked.

so i decided to wait until 11am to start the next feed, going every 5 hours and thereby removing a bottle from their daily intake. well this was by far the WORST feed in their entire lives. i got 3oz out of them quickly with no problem, no crying, no kicking no hard arm movements - perfectly still and then they stop, bite down and pretend suck. so i put one baby down and picked up the other, got to about 3oz on both of them and they start screaming at the top of their lungs....they have NEVER done this before. i know it's a sign of reflux and that it's severe but my god, to come out of nowhere like this, what the heck??? it took me 1 1/2 hours to get them to eat 4oz and they fought every bit of the last 1-2oz kicking the crap out of me and/or screaming. i've literally never seen them do this before.

there has GOT to be something else going on here other then plain old reflux. it was under control and then things just went south...fast. there has to be a reason why they are so full all the time and don't want/care about eating.

oh am i going to scream at GI for ignoring me.....UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I was wondering about this too, they may not be able to eat more than 3 oz.

The signs you mentioned (turning head away, flailing, refusing to let the nipple in) are all signs my babies have all used when they are full, finished, no more room.

I think forcing them to eat more/less frequently is just going to start a feeding battle, especially as they get older.

Some babies need to eat less, more often. Some eat more, less often. I have had 3 very healthy/hefty eaters, and then there's Liam, my boy twin. He's never eaten as much as his sister or my older kids. He's always the first to refuse the rest of the bottle. Even at the height of their feedings, he would only take about 6 oz versus Rylee who would consistently finish 8oz every feeding.

I think you should try making 3 oz bottles and feed them every 3-3.5 hrs rather than 5 oz bottles every 5 hrs.

What kind of nap schedule are they on? At 4 months mine were still napping about 5-6 times a day, about 45 mins apiece, and they would basically nap after every bottle until it was bedtime. It would work out that they would eat for about 25-30 mins, then play for 30-45 mins, then nap for 45-60 mins, and by the time they woke up good, and I changed them, they were about ready for their next bottle.

 

IMO they were over hungry from going too long between feeds, then gulped their food down too fast, which resulted in gas/upset stomach. Then you forcing them to finish the last 1-2 oz probably didn't help.

I know you are worried about how much they are eating but I don't think you should be trying to force that last little bit of food. Some kids just don't eat that much.

Are they growing well? Still gaining a steady amt of weight and following their curve?? If the answers are yes, then you may just have to accept that they don't eat as much as some babies.

Also have you tried other nipples/bottles?? I've had very easy going kids who all accepted the playtex dropins bottles fine, but some babies just don't like a certain type/shape of nipple and you have to experiment to find what works for them.

 

This is exactly what I was going to say.

 

15oz a day is not enough, and you have a right to be concerned. I stand by what I said a few of your threads ago about this, that your babies have reflux(if they aren't spitting up, then it's the silent type) that is not being treated properly, and I believe that they are developing and aversion to the bottle because of the pain that the reflux is causing them. My babies were doing the exact same thing, playing with the nipple, spitting out the bottle, acting as if they were never hungry, etc. The old saying that 'babies will eat when they are hungry' is just not true with some refluxers.

I'm glad that you finally switched to hypoallergenic, as a lot of us suggested, and I think you should keep them on it for a few weeks. You have to realize that it's going to take awhile to heal the damage that the reflux has done. It doesn't happen overnight.

I also think that you need to find a GI or ped that will listen to you, possibly do more tests, and get your babies on the right meds. Like I said, I went through several before I finally found a Nurse Practitioner that listened to me. I even had one doctor tell me that he just thought I needed more sleep. Well duh, but that wasn't why my babies weren't eating. :slap: Needless to say, it's on our chart that we will never see him again.

I hope you got some answers at the GI appt.

 

Anxious to hear how the appt went. My boys ate 18-21 ozs a day. Every 4 hrs, 3-4 ozs a bottle. As they got older we had to add extra powder for more calories.

ETA: That was every 4 hours at night too, even if I had to wake one to eat.

 

Mine were getting 6 feedings a day at 4 months due to reflux issues. We finally switched to 5 feedings a day at 6 months, and now at almost 10 months, they are still at 5 bottles a day. Due to their reflux, we can't feed them more than 6-7 oz. per bottle or they puke. Mine also have a sensory problem with solid foods of any kind right now, so their main source of nutrition is still formula (we're hoping their developmental specialist will help us out on that next week). I would say to stick with at least 5 bottles a day if they have any kind of major reflux issues. If you feed them more formula (i.e. cutting down to 4 bottles a day), they are bound to have more problems. Same goes for if they get too hungry and down their bottles too quickly. Good luck!

 

i'm not force feeding them but i do have to hold them down tightly because they are overly hyperactive. before i even get started they turn their entire bodies into my chest.

i have tried 3oz every couple of hours but it takes a good 45 minutes to get 3 or even 2 1/2oz into both of them. it's just not enough food i'm sorry.

we went from consistently getting 25oz a day into barely 15oz, something is NOT right. lowering the ounces and feeding more frequently doesn't solve the problem since it takes them so long to eat and when i do this i am literally feeding round the clock non stop.

they nap after each feed, so 5 times a day for about 90 minutes or so and then are up and play until it's time to eat again until bedtime.

they've had reflux their entire lives and we went through a period in the beginning where they would cry and scream during the middle and after the feed so we got on meds. that stopped and then the projectile vomitting started, this was 2-3 times a day after or during a feeding. then that stopped once the combo of zantac at night and prevacid in the am started. all signs of reflux disapeared.

then we moved to soy formula and they started to not want to eat. we went back to similac advance and things got worse. i stopped the zantac thinking that would have lessened their appetite since the timing was the same. then i started them on nutrimagen and while they are eating without refusing bottles outright they still aren't getting enough and are now showing reflux signs again...w/o the vomitting.

yes they continue to grow and gain weight BUT with this sudden decrease in caloric intake they are going to start to loose weight which is why i am so concerned and stern with all their doctors that something needs to be done regardless of their weight gain. if they think it's so great they should come try and feed my kids, it's ridiculous. there is NO reason why it should take 1 1/2 hours to feed them a measily 3-4oz of formula.

i saw the GI and they have no clue what is going on. they agree that there is a problem, that they shouldn't be fighting like this for food, be so hyperactive during the feed and having it take nearly 2 hours to feed them. they want to run extensive blood work and urine analysis to check for any problems. if those are clear they will do an endoscopy on them. they said they would check for possible yeast build up in the esophagus (sp?) but that it will be unlikely that BOTH boys have developed this exact problem at the exact same time. i'm taking them in for the blood work tomorrow. until then we are to continue as usual, feed every 4 hours with regular bottles and try and get them to eat as much as possible.

so there you have it. no one knows what's going on.

i have tried other bottles and dr. browns are the only ones they will take. they have been using the same bottles for months without problems. they've also used the same nipples without problems for months. i'm not forcing them to eat but mearly trying to get them to finish. i hold the nipple in their mouth regardless of whether or not they suck until i just realize it's not going anywhere and i give up. it's not like i'm shoving it down their throats. they need to eat!

oh and i burp very frequently and they aren't at all gassy. at least not that i can tell but they do seem to get instantly constipated the moment you put them in my arms even though i KNOW they aren't because they go regularly. it's weird and doesn't happen to anyone else.

also, we have tried taking not adding cereal to the bottle and it makes the reflux worse, they cry during the feeds.

and when we did do on demand they go 12 hours and only eat 4oz and that's it for the day so "on demand" is just not an option.

 

Yep, ITA. Becky and I are on the same wavelength on this. I guess those of us that have been in similar situations can look back and see what really helped. What I'm seeing as a common denominator with most of us is that 1)You need to find a GI Dr. that will listen and HELP!! Do some tests and not just write you off. 2) So often kids with reflux have the milk protein allergy and need some alternative - frequently a hypoallergenic formula. 3) It should not take you that long to feed them. But, most kids with reflux do need smaller and more frequent meals. I'm telling you, my DS hardly ever got in more thatn 16 oz. and he ate every 2-3 hrs. for a long time and could only take in as much (2-3 oz). I think your kids have figured out that the bottle = pain and that's what's going on. I hope the bloodwork will show something. We did an endoscopy which showed the milk protein allergy as well. I know this all incredibly frustrating for you, but I keep hearing great advice that being given. I wish that your Dr.'s would take you more seriously and it finally sounds like your GI is willing to do a bit more.

 

what i don't understand is that they both were eating 5-6oz every 4 hours for 3 weeks and it only took 30-40minutes to finish them both. now all of the sudden they can't eat as much?? i don't understand how that could happen.

well, i was thinking this too but they don't immediately fight the bottle or refuse it. if they associated the bottle with pain they wouldn't take it at all but once you get them started (with ease in the beginning once you get them positioned) they are happy suckers for a good 10-15 minutes and 2-3oz. after that they peeter out, stop sucking, bite down, smile, try and talk, chew, spit out the nipple with their tongue. so i burp them and then restart. it's when you try and restart is when the fighting occurs. they aren't crying (with the exception of today) they are just moving around a lot...seriously i have HYPER kids (every doctor/nurse that has seen them always comments that they've never seen a 4 month old so hyper). so i don't tend to think that they are associating the bottle with pain.

thanks i do too. i am at the end of my ropes here. i've tried every trick that i've heard and nothing is working. it's actually getting worse. i know they have reflux problems but this goes way beyond just regular old reflux, at least that's what my gut says. they have been fine, happy, fast eaters their whole lives up until 2 1/2 weeks ago then all of a sudden they just lost interest in food. they ate better then this when they were 4 weeks old!