Parent/Teacher/Guidance Counselor help please!

Some background: My kids are bright. They're in K. They read chapter books and have large vocabularies, they know how to give change, tell time, spell fairly well, they have both aced their latest report cards, addition, subtraction, starting to get fractions. So yeah, bright kids. Both my husband and I were "gifted" children in the 80's and 90's. There's a good chance that they will be too. We recently moved (February) to a new school, there was a small transition time, but it was minimal. They are perfect students with one exception.

One huge exception:

Alice can be a turd bucket. I mean, she argues with the teacher, she's disrespectful, questions authority, (punk rawk :girl_devil: ) she doesn't listen, she doesn't know how to have a conversation (missing the whole back and forth part of it), she interjects whatever she wants to say whenever she wants to say it. (All of this is from the teacher's daily notes.) I personally see how she can be having a "conversation" and something will be so important off on a tangent that she says it. I understand the tangent and manage to reign her back into the conversation normally. I understand that she is disruptive and that's bad classroom citizenship (that's how we explained it before to her) and is possibly affecting some of the other student's education. But she's five. She's one of the youngest in her class.

Another thing that worries me a bit, is that this teacher didn't even mention to me that Alice could read for the first three weeks she was in the new school, and then it was a gushing letter about how excellent of a reader Alice is. I had previously asked Alice if the teacher knew she could read and Alice said, "No, I don't want her to know." :cry: Why? Why would you not want your teacher to know that? She is so internally motivated that nothing I can bribe her with works. Extra time with me, ice cream, toys, money, stickers, new books, nothing works. She is a stubborn perfectionist and gets frustrated easily if she doesn't get something right the first time. So of course making a mistake for her is exceptionally frustrating. And she cries frequently.

So I requested a meeting with the guidance counselor tomorrow, to see what I can find out about the 1st grade teachers and to see if she has any suggestions for both children's placement next year. MarchI had suggested a teacher that focuses more on science and math, and I like that idea.

And I requested a meeting with her teacher on Monday. What can I tell the teacher? I mean, the teacher has more experience with children than I do. I'm sure she has run into this sort of behavior problem before.

How can I get through to Alice? She's not a bad child, just fiery and I don't want to extinguish the whole spark, just tame it a bit.

 

Wow, Bex, I have no advice since my kids are younger, but I just wanted to say congratulations for having 2 very smart kids , they sound impressive. It seems that Alice can be a great lawyer one day - I am sure she will be a "fun" teenager for you.

 

Alice sounds a lot like one of my boys. Unfortunately, rewards don't have as much effect on him as taking away his electronics--and I mean all--although it usually results in him spending time in his room reading In 1st grade, you probably are not going to find a teacher that is "more math-science" oriented--the curriculum is usually standard throughout the grade. I would probably want a teacher with good structure. One where Alice will always know what to expect and when. Jon thrives much better in an environment where he doesn't have to guess what is coming next--and I think bright kids need structure more than many think. Good luck. Also, don't be surprised if they don't allow you to select a teacher. Many schools only allow requests to not have a particular teacher because either they live in the neighborhood, or a sibling had that teacher. I have always had candid discussions with the boys' teachers, and they have always placed them in the best classes for them--and not necessarily with a teacher I would have thought would be good for them. But, in the end, it has always worked out!

 

:hug: bex. I think I may have shared Ana's pre k experience.. It seems similar to what Alice is going through right now. The teacher in Ana's case was inexperienced and Ana just took advantage, culminating in her pre k protest complete with turning over a chair and refusing to do any more work. Proud mommy moment getting that email at work one morning :escape:

What we did was have the school psychologist observe the class and then have her advocate on our behalf about k placement. I couldn't be happier with how Ana has been in k. Her teacher is very warm and nurturing but also very structured and has exploited, um I mean capitalized on her strong personality and her academic abilities.. So as dh and I joke, she now uses her powers for good instead of evil. I can only wish that your school will do the same for Alice.

In the meantime since the school year is almost over, see what little changes can be made to help her. Can she go to a first grade class for reading groups? Can she do a special math or science project to present to her class? :hug:

 

Oh boy, I think you just described my future with Miles. Bribes? Pfft. Good luck with that. If he's not interested it ain't happening. We are already having these same kinds of issues at daycare, and I think it's a combination of the personality/inexperience of the director, and their very strong wills. The first month was rough.. I was getting called every day over some major incident. So what worked for us was sitting down and talking with the teacher about what we see as problem behaviours, giving our perspective on why he has them, and then coming up with some common goals and approaches to deal with them. It was painful, but it totally worked. As soon as we were all on the same page about discipline methods and areas to work on things started to click. The teacher might have a lot of experience, but you're the expert on Alice. Tell her just what you told us.

Maybe there's some tricks they can teach her about the conversational skills, like holding the talking stick or something like that. To me that sounds like something that you guys should be able to work on with her teacher, and the teacher should have some suggestions for that. It bugs me when these kinds of problems are pointed out without a method to deal with them.

As for the future, I was totally thinking of a math/science school or even just a teacher that is more game to work with her. I think sometimes teachers just don't mesh with kids sometimes and a smart little thing like Alice is going to pick up on that and check out. I'd also see what other special things she can do.

These are good problems to have. Once you figure it out there will be no stopping her.

 

This scares me. :rotflmbo:

And structure, structure, structure. Got it. And Monica, if she takes after you or Lawyer Rachael, I would be so proud.

 

Aww. So sweet.

I think my Jack is a lot like Alice. We are really struggling, and I'm not happy with how his daycare/preschool teacher deals with him.

 

One of my DD is similar. Not disrespectful, but kinda a pain in the tushie about talking about what SHE wants to talk about WHEN she wants to talk about it at school. She also can be a perfectionist and persistent/obsessive at times. She is bright and engaging but a very dominant personality. She too, has no academic concerns (above grade level) and is one of the youngest in the class.


A few things:


1. Does your school have a Gifted/Talented program? If so, is it an option for 1st grade? If it does have a program- what does it entail? I only ask because sometimes bright kiddos do well with other like minded kiddos in some sort of format (weekly class, pull-out instruction, etc). She might find a kindred spirit....someone she may do well to be in class together.

2. Does your school have a social support group? I know ours does. It is a small group of general education kiddos that meets weekly to do two things; help kids practice and review social skills and also set them up as 'helpers' to other students ( younger or special needs or both) to help practice those skills. Both my DD are in the school program. It has been great for them to not only have a small group setting to talk, but also has lead to both DDs being more compassionate.

3. Is some of her behavior age-appropriate but not quite 'grade' appropriate? I know we have run into that a few times. Some of the kids in DDs class are a full year older--- developmentally it makes a difference. Mine are now in 2nd--- when I picture some of the behavior/interests they have, it is perfectly fine for a 1st grader but a bit 'young' for a 2nd grader. At times, there teacher has told me that she sometimes have to remember they are youngest. Or are they trying to base behavior on academic levels? (which are often asynchronous in development)

4. Did your move lead to an increase in 'sassiness' or the NEED to control situations? I know that a move is a big deal and a perfectionist child may then try to control environments to cope. Also-- were the curriculums similar? If the new curriculum is a review of somethings she has already covered and/or presented differently- that may lead to defiance and increased need for 'perfection'.

5. Have you done some digging on Hoagies website (for Gifted/Talented). You may find some good resources there both for home and school. OR Davidson Gifted Forums.

6. I agree, that you are unlikely to find a math/science focus with a specific teachers. How about school? Some areas have charters or magnets that gear themselves toward the Arts, STEM, or other thematic topics. I will say that my DDs find Science at school to be a bust. They already are familiar with all the topics they have covered so far and one DD is very STEM orientated. She does like the math program (Everyday Math) though since it stresses critical thinking, patterns, puzzles, and moves fairly quickly (then spirals back).

You may also see if they have a 1/2 split class. I know both my DDs gravitate toward kids older or younger. A split would provide academic challenge but also a lot of peer support. Also kiddos in splits tend to be more independent workers due to the nature of a split.

7. At home, we do a lot of 'role play' where we act out situations (at school, around town, at home, etc) to help DD practice choices (she pretends to be the teacher and another student, and herself) and also feel more in control of situations. It is one of the best tools in our toolbox. (she does not respond well to rewards or punishment either...rewards only work if she wanted to anyway and punishment turns into a battle of wills and/or a 'fine it was worth it' attitude). We also have a lot of structure at home/school....it is what works best. If X happens--- then Y happens.

8. I would maybe request a specific type of teacher for next year....I agree structure, firm but caring teacher, and someone that is comfortable keeping her positively engaged. I agree with roller giraffe. YOU are the expert on Alice. Teachers are human and like any career, some people appreciate 'fiery' personalities and others dont.

9. Maybe as the counsler to observe a bit and see if she has any suggestions for the classroom--espc. for next year.

We've been lucky and had a good 1st grade teacher but I do think she thought DD1 was annoying at times and did not like dealing with her strong personality/ constant questions...this years teacher is FANTASTIC and 'gets' both my DDs (they are in same class). She knows that if we could just.keep.channeling.that. giant.intensity. that one DD will go far. She has learned to offer an idea to that DD and then let her make it her 'own' idea is the best way to keep her on the straight and narrow in the classroom. My other DD she gently pulls out of the clouds (she is a daydreamer) on a regular basis. She is both DDs biggest cheerleader! I tried to convince her to loop with them to 3rd but sadly I guess I was not very convincing.

A couple of times, I have had DD write the teacher a letter. She explained her behavior, why it happened (important to her to feel 'justified'), and then she came up with what 'should' happen if she did it again. This has been a great way to keep her accountable for her actions, but also allow her a measure of control over what happens should she choose to behavior that way again. ...as a side note: she write other letters to the teacher just for fun on a regular basis (so writing is NOT a form of punishment!).

We also used a lot of visual list of house rules, visual cues (since both DD are visual learners) and charts. It helped them feel both in control(they knew what would happen when and how ) and independent. One DD had a sticky on her desk for a long time that simply said " Raise your Hand"....and it worked (most of the time...she still blurts when she gets too excited to wait and/or is being exceptionally obsessive about something) HAHA! Simple as that.


Hope your meetings are productive and lead to a good experience in 1st grade for your whole family :grouphug:

 

This is so my Sebastian. Thank you for this thread; sometimes I feel like nothing gets through to him. Rewards absolutely do not work - we are in the middle of an useless one as per his gastro... He does not care. Sigh. It's great to see some strategies to sort of direct him, though.

 

Bex, you've gotten some great advice and my only additions will be based on what some of my friends and SIL have told me with their experiences with teachers and students.
My SIL has been teaching for 20 years and teaches 5th grade. She teaches at a catholic school and obviously her school does not have a gifted program nor does it have to follow no child left behind either.
However, she has said, if she sees a child in the 5th grade who needs a challenge because the grade level work is boring them-she will give them that challenge and discuss it with the parents. My SIL has always told me that she has no problems with parents who want to work with her about their child, she wishes that there were more parents who took an active interest in their child's education.
That being said, do meet with the teacher. Even if this is Alice's last month of school, I would describe this year as a learning experience for yourself and Alice and explain that you feel like Alice is not being challenged enough and you would like her suggests on how to challenge her. Ask her about Alice's social skills, what exactly is she seeing in the class room? How is it different from home?
Talk to the school counselor, the school counselor might be able to work with her on social skills or find a play group that will work with her on that level. I also think it is good you are meeting with the counselor about what teachers would be both of your children's best fit for 1st grade.
My best friend has a 3rd grader who is intelligent and also has a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome and when he was in the younger grades the school counselor was able to work with him on conversational skills because his issue was talking at people, only talking about what he wants to talk about and not being able to really do the back and forth conversation with them.

Role playing conversations with Alice would be a really good idea, having a back and forth with her. Alice, pretend I am this classmate and you want to ask me about my day (or whatever). This is something that I work on with my daughter, who has a diagnosis of social anxiety disorder, who also talks at people rather then with them.
Good luck and let us know how you make out!

 

I guess I'm afraid that she's going to lose her creativeness and love of learning if we smother her personality too much. And she probably already knows which buttons to push with the teacher. I do agree that there are things that she either needs to learn or tweak socially, in order to make the classroom the best for all of the children, not just her. My mom was a K teacher and I think she would probably not like Alice in her class. She definitely didn't want me in her class, I had to change schools before I got to her grade level (at the time she was teaching 4/5 split.)

We had a similar problem at the first public school, but it was short lived. We talked about good citizens and why there are rules both written rules and unwritten rules and that seemed to get through to her. She's definitely a sweet child who cares a lot about others, the other day she gathered up the change in the house (we have money hunts since my husband leaves change everywhere) and gave it to the tooth fairy "for other children". So maybe we can push the good citizen ideas some more.

 

I totally get your concern about not wanting to squelch her personality. I was a lot like her growing up and had an awful year in 1st grade because of it. After that I was much more reserved in class and I didn't want that to happen to Ana. If you can find the right balance of letting her personality shine through and use it for productive things AND there is a time and place and sometimes you can't talk about whatever is on your mind, I think she will both enjoy school and flourish without compromise. Good luck today!

 

good luck, let us know what happens

 

It was meh.

We talked about her behavior and the counselor suggested that she might have ADHD based on what I was telling her, obviously she would need more of a work up. She said that she had many similarities to two of her children and Royce had similarities to her other child. But we did decide that firm boundaries and structure were what would be best for Alice, while "soft and fuzzy" would be best for Royce. :lol: And since she's the person that decides the placements for Kindergartners and first graders, she would do her best to make sure that both ended up in classrooms that would be most appropriate for them. She'll get her real guidance counselor next year, this one is specifically for Kindergartners. She was very nice though, we were dressed similarly, grey hoodies, jeans, low top Chucks.