Flu vaccine

What other vaccine do we get on an annual basis and has it been given for a long enough period to know the long-term effects? I swear I'm not being argumentative, I've just trying to pinpoint my fear (even if it is ultimately an irrational one).

I forgot to say it earlier, but feel better. I had that sinus plague last week (and the two weeks that preceded it) and it was the devil. Seriously. I think satan took up residence in my sinuses and was gouging my brain out.

Clearly I'm never one to exaggerate anything.

 

Ugh, Rachael, sinus infections are the worst! Hopefully, the antibiotics will kick in quickly.

Steph, I think about all of those things, too, you are not crazy! But, I think as vaccines go, the flu vaccine is as safe as any other. I don't think we can ever be sure something won't be bad for us/our children down the road somewhere, we just have to do the best we can to make an informed decision. The doctor I heard this morning said 18 kids had already died this year in the US because of the flu & it is still early in the season. For some reason, it is a bad year this year. So we try, as parents to balance the risks, and choose what works best for us. Either way you decide, I hope none of you get it!

 

A few years ago, I went to a holistic Dr after starting a few things on my own from my own reading. I wanted to know if I was on target from a holistic drs point of view and I was. Every winter after a few months, I get my blood drawn to check my vitamin d levels. This year it was at 40 which is good. I did not do the boys this year but have in the past. He suggested I take 5,000 and I have read 10,000 so I go back and forth. I also read how important probiotics are. However, I am learning a lot about how so much of our issues come from gut issues and if you have gut issues then the probiotics will not be effective. That is what I learned from the kids holistic Dr. He said rather then taking a probiotic, he suggested my whole family take Michio Kushis Fermented Superfood Complex with preB. VIDEO

And of course Drs are not going to suggest things like this. For one, they have barely any hours in nutrition and they don't make money by suggesting measures to prevent disease.

A perfect example of this...I went to my general Dr a few weeks ago and asked for a script for blood work to see if I have a mthfr mutation. My sisters son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and through blood work, it was determined he has a mutation of a particular gene and then their whole family was tested and my sister has one mutation also. And my niece has two so it is obvious that my parents side carries this mutation. If I have it, it is important that I do not take folic acid (this mutation can be the reason for miscarriages or fertility issues in general) and I have to watch my vitamin b intake so I need to know. His response, "I cant write autoimmune on the script because what will insurance say about that. Ok so half the population may have that...now what... and my mom and I basically stared blank at him as we saw right through what I read about. I told him what I should not be taking if I have it and he totally dismissed this mutation being an issue because he does not here about it being talked about and he gets a ton of info on his phone and email everyday and this does not come up. He said he will research it.

And if there are any science people out there curious about the MTHFR...the mutations specifically are C677T & A1298c

(eta- I know that probably sounds bad what I said about drs not making money by not preventing disease. I kow drs have their patients best interest at heart but I believe our medical system fixes problems after they occur rather than working on preventing illness by teaching their patients how to stay healthy with nutrition and supplements depending on each persons needs.)

 

And there is a lot of money at stake if people can prove these vaccines are dangerous.

My personal belief is they are not safe. As I have said before, I have a friend who is an environmental DR and she is anti-flu vaccine.

I also think there are so many variables related to our systems, the food we eat and the chemicals we are exposed to (did you know the kids pjs that are not snug fitting are full of flame retardants? these are strong chemicals) that's hard to say what is happening (IMHO). I get it, we don't want children's pjs to catch on fire if, god forbid, there is a fire. But these are strong chemicals, against your children's skin.

I don't know everything - but I know enough that I no longer trust what I read because I know how data can be skewed. Just take any marketing or statistics class.

 

That's exactly what I said. Big money in proving they are dangerous. But vaccines themselves are not big profit centers.

Stephanie, the flu vaccine has been around since the 1940s.

 

Yes, sorry I meant on both sides. Either in payments for 'damages' or in ending businesses. Yes, I know vaccines are not big profit centers, but it could open up a lot of questions about big phrama and how they work.

 

People have been asking those questions for years. And rightfully so. Look at some of the stuff rushed to market that ends up being dangerous. But vaccines have been around and been tested and been scrutinized for DECADES. They are safe.

I think the emphasis on healthy living is great an appropriate. We need much better preventative care in this country. But vaccines are preventative care. And the thought that flu virus can't get you if you are super healthy is just a fallacy. Healthy people get sick.

 

Here's what we do. My kids get the flu vaccine. They had quite a bit of lung problems as babies and toddlers. We seriously seemed to catch every "lung" thing that went around. (On the other hand, we've had 1 stomach bug ever). Sarah had asthma that she seems to have outgrown. But I still have a nebulizer in the closet and cringe whenever I hear a cough.

I, personally, cannot have the flu vaccine. I have an egg allergy and they will not give me the vaccine. My dh just doesn't want to bother getting it, so he doesn't.

We've had the flu go through our family twice. Once was when swine flu was just starting to spread and we were traveling and got it. It knocked all of us out flat for a week. The other time the 4 of us got it, was the year I decided to skip the kids' flu shots. Once again, we were all knocked out for a week and then I got a second weeks worth because I didn't get to rest and recover taking care of the other 3. We haven't skipped since then.

With our history of lung trouble, my kids will be getting the shot as long as they are under my roof. I seriously wish my dh would. I would if they would give it to me.

As to the chemical vs. protection debate, you just have to find your comfort zone. I'm not totally organic, but we don't always have meat in a meal or much meat. I also use things like deer meat when I have it. I buy milk and cheese from a producer that doesn't do the hormones. I severely limit food dyes and processed foods and we don't eat out very often. I'm eating alot of oranges and trying very hard to eat lots of fruits and veggies. I always ask a lot of questions before shots and I've refused a lot of them. But given our lung history, I'm willing to take the chances on the flu shot.

The other reason I will do the flu shot is for herd immunity. I can't have the shot. My children having the vaccine protects me. (I do work at their school, but I'm not around many people there). I also imagine some of our older people at church who like to come up and hug my kids. Could I live with myself if the kids passed the flu to one of them?

Marissa

 

I never got the flu shot until I started working in a cube environment. I got minor flus (maybe just bad colds some of the time?) as a child but nothing bad. Then the first year I worked in cubes, oh my goodness. I was knocked on my butt sick. Still working from home too . Ever since then I have gotten the flu shot. A couple of other things:

- DH has a long history of asthma and respiratory problems and every year gets at least one cold or something that pushes him over the edge in a respiratory way, so I try to keep him from getting anything like that because it make us all miserable for a couple of weeks. (On that note, I hope you feel better soon Rachael!)

- With DH's (and my mom & MIL's) respiratory history, I won't know if any of the girls have respiratory issues until something happens to trigger it. If it's going to happen, I would kind of rather it be later rather than sooner. Actually, of their parents and grandparents, my FIL and I are the only ones that don't have asthma.

- Finally (and perhaps most importantly), I don't want to know what it's like to have to take care of 3 kids who have the flu while I have the flu myself. :shok: I recognize that the flu shot cannot guarantee that that won't happen but it greatly increases my chances of escaping that scenario.

I also know that those reasons are very specific to my family situation and my family's medical history. So I doubt any of that helps you, Stephanie, but it's what we do.

 

I started getting the flu shot 2 years ago when I was diagnosed with asthma - prior to that, never got it (the flu or the shot)...also working in the hospital and with school clinical I have to have it or I'm not allowed to be in the hospital...

Tony gets it because they offer it free at work - he did get the flu once and it knocked him for a loop for a few days (and he's not the typical "I'm dying from a hangnail" type of guy...

I don't get it for the kids - my pedi doesn't think they need it - they are young, healthy, have no lung/respiratory issues - he doesn't see the need to introduce it...they never got it when they went to daycare/pre-school either...they have decent immune systems, although Abby seems to get colds frequently they do little more than make her nose red...

my grandma got her shot and was diagnosed with influenza A last week - so its the luck of the draw, although I do think the shot prevented her from getting it full blown - she had a cough but no fever, runny nose etc...

 

Cough=flu??

Clue a girl in! My kids have been coughing for weeks! No fever. Just runny nose and coughing. Deep, gunky coughs. N was first...then Anthony, then Annabella on 12/24. N is finally good, but other two are still hacking!

/endhijack

 

Here's an example I just came across of how a "simple" flu can take the young and healthy....so sad!

Flu leads to Texas teen's death

I would also urge you to do it for yourself for this very reason. I too am really a suck it up person. I rarely medicate myself with cold meds, tylenol, etc. But that doesn't mean (to me) to not try to prevent getting to that point, ya know?

 

Reading the article, he didn't actually die from the flu

It was a bacterial infection, probably from being in the hospital.

No doubt the flu made him very sick - which led him to the hospital, but the flu is a virus - and he died from a bacterial infection.

 

No flu shot here. I got one when I was pregnant with Kaelyn, I got pregnant in december and my RE and my OB both strongly encouraged me to get the shot. That's the one and only time I got it. Sean and I had the flu when he was about 22 months old, we both cranked a high fever one morning, I took us both to the dr and got tamiflu right away, and David got a pack for preventative....and we survived. It was just like a really bad cold. Hubby gets a free flu shot at work every year.

I had the flu again a couple years ago, again, caught it right away, got tamiflu right away and it was just like a really bad cold.

I fully realize it CAN be much worse, but I also think if you are aware of the symptoms (and the flu has some pretty specific symptoms like sudden onset and fever), and get to the dr you can get through it. A lot of the serious illness's and death's are from secondary issues, like pneumonia and bronchitis after the flu virus has gone.

I have heard that the prevalent flu this year isn't even contained in the shot. Just from what I've heard from friends. So to me it really is a crap shoot.

 

No, cough does not equal flu. And a "gunky" cough is probably not flu. Flu tends to be a dry hacking cough, not a productive cough. Flu is also generally characterized by high fevers, lots of aches and pain, chills, etc. you can find symptom comparisons online.

 

That's how the flu kills--it leads to serious bacterial co-infections like pneumonia, etc. You act like he was in the hospital for a cold and got an unrelated infection. He was dying when he went in to the hospital. From complications of the flu. This kind of denial flummoxes me. You'll believe that medicine and sunscreen are bad, but you will come up with any reason to believe that a healthy person didn't get the flu and die of complications from the flu.

 

Actually, the reports are that this year's vaccine is very effective. Of the three strains in the vaccines, the H1N1 has been rare, the AH3N2 has been an almost perfect match (and this is the most prevalent flu strain this year and also typically the worst in how sick you get), and the B has matched 70% of the B cases (there are two Bs circulating). Even if you happen to catch the minor B strain that isn't in the vaccine, the flu shot would still give you some protection, lessening symptoms.

 

I didn't read all the replies, though I agree with several of Rachael's. I am pro flu vaccine. My friend had H1N1 as did her son who had RSV as a baby. Her son who had 1 of the H1N1 shots had a much milder case than she did (which is good but also sucks because taking care of a baby while having flu is awful). We get the flu shot every year. My husband and my oldest have asthma. I've taken my husband to the hospital twice for cold related asthma attacks so i cannot imagine what flu would do to him. I've actually chosen not to get certain vaccines for the kids because I think they are over the top and unnecessary. We also space out vaccines. However, we get flu every year. For toddlers, who don't have any asthma issues, they have flu mist so it isn't even a shot.

Vaccines are meant to teach your body how to deal with an infecting organism. They are not meant to cure you from the disease. Most of the time, your body "learns" enough that you don't have symptoms. Other times, your body will still display symptoms even if you had the vaccine. That is true for any vaccine. In addition, viral mutation rates are very high. Therefore, vaccines are not always perfect. However, they will help you not be as sick when you get infected.

ETA: If your immune system is overtaken by a virus, as there have been many cases of this year, you are prone to secondary infections. This is akin to chemotherapy, but in that case, drugs are knocking out your immune system. That is why people are dying from the flu their body is so overwhelmed, it cannot fight other infectious agents, despite all the vitamin c in the world.

 

I am very pro flu shot. I have gotten the shot myself for years. I haven’t had the flu since I was 8. I have moderately severe asthma and other chronic health issues. My boys have gotten their Flu shot since they were 6 months old.

Both boys were preemie. Both boys have had between them 5 rounds of pneumonia. When they caught RSV at the age of 2 it took one of my boys 6 months to fully recover including 4 rounds of antibiotics due to 3 rounds of pneumonia all in 6 months. They both had reactive airway disease diagnosed at 4 months and are now diagnosed with asthma. They both have severe asthma requiring daily medication and treatments and multple rounds of oral steriods every year. I would be completely and totally irresponsible as a parent if I did not get them vaccinated. They are under the age of 5 and at high risk due to their lung issues. All these factors equate to hospitalization and possible death due to the flu virus. It is simply not optional in our household. You get the flu shot.

They do a fantastic job of predicting the flu strain(s). The big one circulating this year is covered by the flu shot. Does that mean you or your child could still get the flu if you are vaccinated? Yes. No vaccine is 100%. There are other strains of the flu circulating but the major flu strain is covered. It also takes 2 weeks for the flu shot to be effective so if you are exposed before or within that window and get the flu it is NOT due to the flu shot or lack of effectiveness. It is because you got the shot to late. And those who do get the flu shot and after the two week time frame do get the flu they are less likely to have severe complications.

The flu shot has been around since WWII. Obviously it has improved over the years. I just have zero tolerance for all the myths surrounding the flu shot. It has been around for 80+ years. Please use only scientific studies (peer reviewed and published) when doing your research. If you just google it you get all kinds of pseudo (fake) science.

The flu kills. It kills children and adults every single year. It has nothing at all to do with “building” a child’s immunity or sucking it up. I cringe every single time I hear that. There is no overall protection gained by subjecting your child to the risks. As for “sucking it up”… tell that to the parents of the children who have died from the flu. Guess they should just suck it up.

 

I feel compelled to reiterate- my "suck it up" attitude is regarding my own health. I rarely visit the doctor, almost never take antibiotics, and generally push through whatever funk I'm carrying around.

Okay, with that said, here's the discussion that Paul and I had last night-

We're still leery of annual vaccines. Not because "OMG, vaccines are terrible" but more because we both have a discomfort with this particular one. I hear everybody's arguments for them, I promise I am taking it to heart, but we can't shake this unease.

But we're going to get the girls vaccinated this year and probably, at least, the next two years. Alexis's RAD scares the bejeezus out of me. The day she was diagnosed was terrifying and her blood-oxygen levels were dangerous. Understanding more about the way the flu attacks the body, I realize that she would be at very high risk for complications.

We're going to reevaluate our feelings towards the vaccine each year. My doctor was very understanding of my questions and encouraged us to continue discussing this with her on an annual basis.

 

If your child is unlucky enough to get the flu despite flu vaccine or due to lack of vaccination and your child is in the high risk category call the doctor immediately. Antiviral medication can be prescribed that can help prevent major complications. It must be started within the first 48 hours of symptom onset to do any good at all. It will not necessarily lesson the symptoms or duration of the flu but it can lessen the likelihood of complications and death in a person/child who has risk factors such as lung issues. It like the vaccine is not 100% and the vaccine is the first line of defense but just in case there is a second line of defense for those at high risk of complications.

 

That's not what I said - that news article didn't provide nearly enough information about what happened and why. And yes, I understand that the flu weakens your body and leaves you open to much more dangerous infections.

I'm fine with the concept of sunscreen, what I am not fine with is the chemicals in the sunscreen. But as you said up thread, if we want to debate we should take it to the Den.

For any new members, The Den is a private forum accessible to Reward Members. Get more info Here

I would love to read a good medical article on how the Flu shot protects. I've asked my friend, the environmental DR, and she said they don't really exist. My issue is the efficacy of the information supporting the value of the flu shot. All I see are a lot of news articles designed to scare people.

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't work, I just need better proof before I put a bunch of chemicals into my kids.

 

I think this is wise both in your case and your Dr. Sounds like you have a good Dr that takes parents concerns and childrens medical health in consideration.

I dont blame you on doing research- that is an intelligent response to something that you want to understand better.

I am much more prone to respect choices that people make ( no matter if I agree with or not) when they do their 'homework'. An informed decision is one that you have strong feelings toward and are not just jumping on the ' I always' or 'I never' bandwagon about popular topics without gathering pertinent details.


I wish you peace with your choice- no matter what you choose!

Everyone needs to remember that we all make choices that we think are in the best interest of our children! I cant imagine that anyone makes these choices lightly . :grouphug: Its so hard to sometimes, when we as parents have conflicting feelings about both options in any situation.

 

This was on one of my vaccine pages I visit:
--------------------------

Up until now I've been pro-vaccine, albeit on an alternative schedule. More because I heard people him and haw about risks but only did minimal research. I figured I was doing enough by slowing the pace.

Today, my little guy had his 2nd flu shot. Immediately after we left, he fell flat on his face while walking. "whoa buddy let me carry you...."

We got home, ate, he napped, then woke up a drunken sailor. "whoa buddy you a little sleepy still?" as he struggles to maintain his balance. A bit later he falls face into the door frame while just standing there. That's when I knew something was definitely wrong. So we did a few "test walks" (away from said doorframe) to analyze the degree of his instability. Off to the ER. My car is having some electrical issues so I opted for closest rather than children's. We usually never opt for closest....and we will never do so again: closest Dr watches him stand...and fall. Then walk....and fall. Didn't check anything else, then deduced that it could just be a "transient reaction" (whatever that is) and that he was "sure" he'd be fine tomorrow. Yep, okay Doc. I expressed my dissatisfaction to the nurse and no sooner than we hit the parking garage I get a call from the Dr wanting to "discuss other options." CYA at its finest. Thanks but no thanks.

Off to children's. We were immediately taken back and before even having him stand she tested his reflexes...or lack thereof, rather. No reflexes in left leg and a diminished, one time out of probably 40, in the right. She came back with another tool and this time none in either. She had him walk, saw him sway and stumble (he didn't fall this time) and asked another Dr to come and try reflexes. This Dr, got a +1 (again bare minimum) in both legs. I never saw his "reflex" and she never did a "oooooh good there it is" or anything of the sorts. She never even said to me that she "got" them. After much time she came back and said since other Dr got a +1 in each that she didn't want to test for GBS (insert frantically googling mama here) (doesn't that mean group b strep? Oh wait, nope, sure doesn't for this) just yet but wants him seen first thing in morning for reflex and balance testing because "GBS WILL get worse" Mmmmm great, send me home for my baby to get worse.

Now I'm frantically searching for anti vax drs because at the risk of sounding totally neurotic, I don't trust my very pro vax dr to do the repeat reflex test. Is that horrible? He's been our dr for 10 years. I've done 10 years of on time vaccinations. And now I'm officially a nutso "never vaxing again" kinda folk!

Yep, absolutely certain that my son was totally fine running down the hall TO his vaccines and came OUT of it falling flat on his face and has been ever since. When it looks like trash and smells like trash, don't tell me it's roses!

----------------

 

Guillain Barre Syndrome is a very, very rare side effect to the flu shot. Something like 1 case of Guillain Barre per million flu shots. (And many studies show no link at all.) It's not a reason to not vaccinate. The rate of children who die of the flu is much higher than children who have complications of any kind (not just GBS) from the flu shot.

ETA: you are actually more likely to get GBS from the flu itself (or other respiratory illness or diarrhea) than from the flu shot.

 

Yes, this is what I was going to say. I know 2 people who have developed GBS following a case of the flu. The chances of getting it from the flu vaccine are much smaller.

 

I think this is a very good point. There is no such thing as a risk free or safe choice. All choices have pros & cons. Each family has to choose the set of pros & cons they're willing to live with. Unfortunately, there is always someone who is going to get the short end of the stick no matter what choice they make. I also think this is why these choices are hard - what if I choose "wrong"? There are no guarantees. But I also think that's freeing in a way too. Because you really can't make a wrong choice. You can just make the best choice you're able to at the time.

 

Yes....unfortunately. (one of many reasons) I do not get the flu shot because of GBS risk. BUT that is upon the suggestion of of my Dr. , he IS provaccine and he DOES want us to vaccinate other family members. Due to another medical disorder, I am much more likely have an adverse reaction- one of which is GBS. So I do not get the vaccine because in my particular case-- science indicates that I am not a good candidate.

Yet, I am comfortable giving the vaccine to the rest of my family. They are much more at risk with asthma if they were to get flu than to get a reaction to the vaccine.


While my heart goes out to the people that get the flu and are acutely ill and/or have a severe reaction to the flu shot, if you serf the web, you will likely find negative stories far out weigh the positive stories on almost any topic of debate. People simply are not likely to state " I got the flu shot and had no reactions and stayed healthy all season!". and post it online.

Websites that are strongly PRO/CON anything are going to post the 'worst case or absolute best case scenarios' to help convince people toward their way of thinking. Most of those websites are not the best place to get unbiased, scientific information.

Try the CDC website, DR offices, or other sources that are likely to have factual information and current data.

A lengthy discussion with your Dr of choice is also a good option to discuss pro/con for each family member.

It is one of those choices you just have to inform yourself and make the best individual choices possible for each member of your family.

 

Here is an article on efficacy of the flu vaccine in 2007. The study was done on a small group. It comes from the University of Michigan School of Health.


http://www.iep.org/Our%20Physicians/Journal%20Club/12.03.09/effectiveness%20of%20live%20attenuated%20to%20inactivated%20.pdf

 

Thanks for posting about this. I'm going to try to find a holistic doctor to help me figure this stuff out. Maybe it will give me a little peace of mind and help me with my anxiety too.

 

I don't get the flu vaccine for myself, or my kids. I used to for my oldest, because of her asthma, but she's outgrown it now. My DH does get the shot. Prior to this year, our household has had 4 cases of confirmed flu (2 of them in vaccinated people). None too severe, and it never spread to anyone else. So, it reasoned that my logic was good. Our bodies & immune systems were strong, and working as they should, on their own.

Then this year came. My 8 yr old got very sick, very fast. She was fine on Saturday, then a little feverish on Sunday. Monday came, and she was complaining about her neck & spine, and the high fevers began. A trip to the urgent care confirmed Flu A. Her lungs were clear, and there was no cough. On Tuesday, she was nauseous & refused to drink. Her fever was spiking to 105, and never got below 102 all day, despite medications & baths. Wednesday, she was hospitalized. I live in a big city, and it took my doctor 2 hours to find a bed, because the hospitals were already full. He said the day before he sent an 18 mo old to the hospital for IV fluids, and they had to wait 18 hours! My baby was beyond sick. She was so dehydrated it took 6 people 1.5 hours to find a vein. When they did, her blood was like syrup. They couldn't even get enough for a culture. One of the worst days of my life. She developed pneumonia, as well. She missed 8 days of school, and almost her winter party.

No one else in our family of 6 got sick, including myself who took no precautions against it. I've never had the flu, or a flu shot. That will always make me 2nd guess myself, but we will all receive the vaccinations from now on. You think you're making the best decisions, but things can turn on a dime. My DD's fever was 106 at the dr's office. What if she had sustained brain damage from the fevers? I would NEVER be able to live with myself, if I chose to decline the vaccines after what she went through this year. I can't tell you how small I felt, when dr after dr asked me if she had the flu shot, and I had to keep saying no. My "reasons" didn't sound too great then.

 

Thanks for posting that Irene. I was just having an argument the other day with someone who said that there was no studies proving that the vaccine works. Nearly 2000 subjects is still statistically significant, and that's good enough for me.

Jamey, what an ordeal! I am so glad your girl is ok, but that must have been scary. Don't beat yourself up over the flu vaccine though; it's not easy to predict these things and as people mentioned upthread, hindsight always makes the right choice clearer, but we can't see the future.

 

Nicole - Guillain-Barre is so rare, and most cases are a result of the actual virus themselves (either respiratory or GI) than the vaccine....it also could be that the little boy in the story had been previously sick, or had something brewing - GBS doesn't attack that fast - generally takes hours to days, not minutes....

sorry but I don't think the shot itself did it...

 

I think Royce has the flu. He was vaccinated. BUT!!!

He was running a very high fever (for him) this morning at 4:00, 104.7 He started coughing, we gave him Advil since he was complaining of his neck hurting and the high fever. Now it's almost 3:00 pm and we haven't had to give him more Advil, and he's not scary sick like he was this morning. So assuming that this is the flu that he has, I am so glad he got the shot. This could be so much worse, he is just acting a little sick, nothing that scares me. In fact, he technically could go to daycare tomorrow, since he hasn't run a fever since early this morning.

So for us, the flu shot has done its job. It's made this sickness much much less than what it could be.

 

We get the flu shot. For one thing, I teach kids with multiple disabilities who could become very sick if they got the flu, I feel it is my responsibility to do what I can to help protect them from the flu. My boys all get it too, 2/3 of them have had wheezing episodes in the past and I feel the benefits outweigh the risks.