Need sleep!

So, my babies have NEVER been good sleepers. They are up multiple times a night and rarely nap. One time one of them slept 8 straight hours and I kept going in to make sure he was still alive! You would think they would be tired fussy babies with as little sleep as they get, but they are the happiest of any baby I've had (I have two older boys). These babies sleep maybe 7-8 hours in a 24 hour period, but that is broken up through the night, so it's hard to know for sure.

They wake up all night long. They like to nurse back to sleep, but I've been having my husband get up with them early in the evening and hold/rock/walk them back to sleep. This usually works, but they often wake up again 30 minutes, 1 hour, or 2 hours later. In the past month we moved them to separate rooms (prior to that I co-slept with them... We were up all night long with this arrangement). They usually don't fall asleep the first time until sometime between 10:30 and 11:30. I've been trying to hold off on nursing them after that until 2am. Once I nurse one at night they will want to nurse for a LONG time, like an hour or more.

They've just started eating solids in the past 6 weeks. I couldn't get them interested before that. I've been trying to make sure they eat plenty of. Solids before bed and nurse them as much as they want, but it doesn't seem to help. Some nights we will have a really good night (one night waking aroound 3am to nurse and then up again at 7am to nurse) but they are few and far between. I really can't make any sense of it.

I co-slept with my single babies, nursed on demand, never did cry it out, and just kinda let them fall into a routine. They were eating more by this time, taking regular naps, and sleeping most nights through the night by this age. What am I doing wrong with these babies? They might not need sleep, but this mama sure does! Any suggestions? I really really don't want to make them cry it out, but I'm getting to the point that I might have to.

 

Do they nap? Do they have a set bedtime? I find those two things really make a difference!!

 

Oh my goodness you must be exhausted, I sure would be! You are very lucky that their lack of sleep has not had an effect on their behaviour - very, very lucky! I cannot imagine any baby or even older child surviving so well with such little sleep.

I am sure you know that sleep begets sleep so the better consolidated (uninterrupted) sleep they get at night, the more likely they are to have a good nap during the day and vice versa - in fact I would go as far as to say that the reason they are not sleeping very well at night is because they aren't getting the sleep they need during the day so they are too wound up and easily awakened and then find it difficult to fall back asleep, at night - pretty much a standard sign for overtiredness.

What are the things you have tried to get them to nap ie. what's your soothing routine? Is it consistent? Is your bedtime routine consistent? Do they have a regular wake time in the morning? What time do you attempt naps? Answers to these questions will help find a better routine to follow.

Hopefully someone can give you some tips on how to handle the night time feeding issues you're having as we stopped night feeds at 4 months and I imagine that at 13months, this will be different too.

 

Usually for naps I try to nurse them to sleep. Sometimes rock them or walk them. As soon as I lay them down though, they usually wake up. I've let them cry for a few minutes, but I just hate to let them lay in there and cry and cry and cry. At this point, I've almost given up on naps. I do always try to lay them down if they fall asleep, but I've given up trying to have any kind of consistent nap. I tried for many months to get them to nap, I've never had kids that didn't nap like this!

 

What about swings for naps?

What about swings for naps?

 

You need the book 'healthy sleep habits, happy child' by marc weissbluth. Many books have recommendations on sleep dos/don'ts and schedules, but he actually explains why.
And the different sleep needs at different ages.

My kids are only 7 months but i glanced at the chapter for your age. This is the short version, but get the book. It has so much good information in it.
At 13 months children should have one or two naps depending on the child. Waking at night is a indication of being over tired. An earlier bed time might work.. like 5:00.. no kidding. Lots of stimulation when up and longer soothing time to sleep.
I swear every time we have had a sleep problem I have read this book and done what he said (even when I think it is crazzzy) and it has worked.
Your kids are way over tired so it might take 3 or 4 days to see a difference.
Also at 13 months they MIGHT be ready to give up the morning nap. If the early bed time helps but doesn't fix it you might try keeping them up til afternoon nap. Short (30-45 minute) cat-naps are NOT good for creating healthy sleep. First try early bed time then try to get longer daytime naps.

Also, before you try cry it out, just turn off the monitor. You won't hear the little noises. By responding to every little noise we interrupt their sleep. I am the master at this! I have to make myself WAIT before responding. Even without the monitor you will still hear when they really need you. You can always do CIO later.

GL - sleep can make all the difference.. to you and them.

 

They don't take a morning nap to give up...or an afternoon nap. Sometimes there are exceptions. Today Elliot did take an hour nap right around noon. We got the boys to sleep earlier last night, about 10pm. Between 10 and 2:00 we were up 5 times with Elliot. Then starting at 3am we were up and down with Dylan. Elliot was awake at 6:30 and Dylan up at 7:15.

 

Oh sheesh. 10 pm?? I would go crazy!! When do you have time to wind down?? That really sucks!

I would also recommend 'No Cry Sleep Solution'. I read it when my older daughter was a year old and we were trying to get her to STTN in her crib. I picked and chose what I wanted and left the rest.

Would you feel the same way about letting them cry if you were in the room with them, patting their backs and comforting them, but not taking them out of the crib, till they fell asleep? I did this with my daughter and it took time but after a couple of weeks she was ok with getting into her crib and falling asleep there, and when she realized there was nothing to get up for, she started sleeping thru the night.

Would you try committing yourself to two weeks of a strict napping/bedtime schedule? At 13 mos it's quite possible they are ready for a single 12/1 pm nap, assuming that they go to bed around 6 or 7 pm.

 

Wow-- and I thought I had it rough!!! Yikes.
My little guy is 9 months and still wakes to nurse every 2-3 hours ALL.NIGHT.LONG. I have just decided that I am done. Starting Friday, he's going to sleep boot camp. He's no longer getting nursed during the night (although I'll gradually wean this--not just drop all 2-3 nursing sessions at once). He is 23 lbs and DOES NOT need to nurse all night long.
Certainly, at 15 months, yours do not either. These are learned habits and I know my DS is doing it because he always has done it and I'm right there in the room; he knows no different.
I have read (Weissbluth or Karp) that if a baby is still waking up multiple times per night at 9 months, there are some sleep issues. That's why I let my LO get to 9 months - thinking maybe he'd work it out himself - before I started cutting him off. But, it is time. I am not doing CIO, but will do more of a graduated extinction with him. I expect some long nights, but we'll both be better off on the other side. This has become a quality of life issue for me - I am utterly exhausted and also have two 2 year olds - as I'm sure it has for you.
I also recommend reading HSHHC and deciding what your ideal schedule/routine is. Then, start to work CONSISTENTLY toward it. I think naps are realistic for you if your LOs are getting more and better sleep overall. Good luck.

 

Sorry, after I wrote that I realized i wasn't clear about naps. I meant that naps are important also, but I would concentrate on early bed time first and then worry about naps once they are a little more rested. Weissbluth gives an example of almost exactly what you describe and recommended first 5pm bedtime then once night sleep is better really concentrate on nap(s).

Your boys sound like my DD. She NEVER acts fussy even, when she is tired. She thrives on that over-tired adrenaline... Happy, smiling, playing, laughing.
Her sleepy cues are subtle to non-existent. The only way I know she is over-tired is that when I go to put her down she fusses. If she is tired but not over-tired she just falls asleep. If I try to put her down too early she just lays there and looks at me (no fussing). Her fussing is so convincing I have to keep reminding myself it really DOES mean she needs to sleep.
If I had only her, I could easily have fallen into the habit of not protecting her sleep. Lucky(?) for me, my DS is nothing like that. I have about a 30 minute window from tired to over-tired before he is impossible to live with.. no happy adrenaline rush here! Since I insist she goes down when he does, they both have regular sleep habits. He is my nap indicator.
When they have missed out on sleep, he is cranky. The first indication i have from her, that she is not getting enough sleep is that she wakes up earlier and earlier (like 4am) and her naps become difficult. (doesn't want to go down and then wakes up after only a short time). Nothing i do makes her naps better until she gets good night sleep. I literally put her to bed at 5pm! Every time i do it I think, 'this is crazy, it will never work.' but it does, putting her to bed earlier means she sleeps later and then she starts napping again.

You didn't get to this 'over-tired' place all at once and you can't fix it all at once either. Take baby steps. Make a commitment to what ever it takes to get them as much sleep as possible. A sleep log can be helpful to see patterns, what works, what doesn't. I would never have figured my DD out without one.

You have a bunch of things going on at once (over-tired, night nursing, not self-soothing).. I am not the best person to guess about the bfing.. my kids only got a little bm and night feedings were always bottle. But if I were guessing, I think sleep is the main problem and the nursing will work out if you can get them some sleep. At the age is is definitively not hunger. My guess is they are running on adrenaline and because they are wound-up (yes, even in the middle of the night) they want to nurse to sooth themselves. I would defintely concentrate on sleep.

3under2 wrote
Would you feel the same way about letting them cry if you were in the room with them, patting their backs and comforting them, but not taking them out of the crib, till they fell asleep? I did this with my daughter and it took time but after a couple of weeks she was ok with getting into her crib and falling asleep there, and when she realized there was nothing to get up for, she started sleeping thru the night.
I did this with my kids and it worked.. it was exhausting but in the end it paid off.

Make a goal of more sleep (between 12 & 15.5 hours a day) and work toward it. The good thing is if you can get their sleep under control, your kids will be great about the occasional missed nap, since they handle over-tired with happy. (not like me DS who becomes a fus-monster)
I know you will find the solution you are looking for, just keep working at it!.. the reward is so worth it.. a good nights sleep for you and them! You can do it!

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I really feel at my wits end. I don't know what to do with these little guys. We have tried letting them cry while we pat their backs, but you have to force them down. They sit up and stand up in bed. Last night they both woke up less than an hour after we put them down. My husband got Dylan back down in about 15 minutes. I walked around with Elliot for almost an hour and tried laying him down twice in that time when I thought he was good and out, but he immediately popped up crying. I finally just brought him to bed with me and he nursed and fell asleep in about 30 minutes. Then of course, Dylan woke up almost as soon as Elliot was down. Dylan was really upset, so my husband brought him to me and went and put Elliot in the crib. Seems like pretty much my whole night went like that. I got about two hours of sleep this morning while my husband tended to the four kids. I have been trying to get my babies to bed earlier, but it seems to take SO long to get them wound down and asleep. I keep thinking they'll eventually get to be better sleepers, but it just isn't happening!

 

I think that the idea of an early bedtime is a good place to start. I would go as early as 5:00pm. Knowing that it takes such a long time to settle them to sleep, plan to start the wind down routine at 4:00pm. I know that will most likely mess with the overall family schedule but it'll only be for a little while until they're better rested. Do whatever it takes right now to maximize sleep - nurse at the first peep, use the swings, rock, etc. As much as it sucks, this is probably going to take more work to begin with before it starts to get better.

Have you talked to your doc about this situation? Just in case there were some kind of underlying medical issue or concern going on? If both babes are healthy, then it's a matter of finding their rhythm & gently, step by step, guiding them to it. When you make a change try & stick with it consistently for at least a week before evaluating if it's improving things or not. :hug:

 

Do you we can jump into that early of a bedtime given they don't usually wind down until 10- 11:30 currently, or do you think easing the time back would be better?

They aren't much a fan of swings. We retired them a few months ago.

I really wish I could figure out how to KEEP them asleep.

Thanks for the input!

 

If it were me i would jump into it.. really at this point what do you have to loose, you are already up all night.

The way I understand sleep is.. the reason they are not staying asleep is because they are so overtired they can't relax. Relate it to when you go on vacation after a really stressful time.. it takes multiple days for you to 'come down' and be able to relax. The same is true for an over tired child. They are running on adrenaline.

Right now you should do anything and everything to try to get them some sleep because until they are more rested they won't sleep better. Definitely a catch 22. They can't sleep because they are too tired and they are too tired because they can't sleep. Uuugg!
That is the bad news. The good news if you work at it, you WILL have children who WILL sleep. Hang in there.

I would definitely put them down at 5:00!

 

I sure hope they sleep someday! I'm getting tired of being perpetually exhausted. We got them both down around 10 tonight, which is on the early side for them. Elliot woke at 10:45 and my husband got him back to sleep fairly quickly and then Dylan woke at 11:20. I'm trying to nurse him back to sleep now. It's been too many nights since these babies have had a good night and this night isn't off to a good start.

We will have to start aiming for an early bedtime. I guess it can't hurt anything.

 

Some suggestions based on the other posts:
Watch them in the afternoon for tiredness. The first signs are staring blankly into space, a marked decline in activity, rubbing of eyes, getting fussy or throwing a random tantrum...google it, I'm sure I'm missing some. At the first sign of any of these: hop to it, start getting them ready for bed. Even if they haven't eaten yet, they will survive for one night or you can nurse them if they wake up and you know they are truly hungry.

Also, do you have a bedtime routine that you do every night? I would start one ASAP. We do dinner, bath/sponge bath, pjs, sing a couple of good night songs while snuggling on mommy/nursing, kisses, then into the crib. A routine is key, then they have a cue that it's time to start winding down.

If they stand up and cry, you can stay near them, sing a soothing song over and over, tell them "mommy's here, mommy's here", say 'shh shh shhh' over and over, till they calm down. When they calm down, keep singing. Eventually they will fall asleep. The key is to teach them that once they are in the crib for the night, they don't come out. It might be easier for them if your husband does this for the first few nights, maybe start on a thursday or friday night so he can do thurs, fri, sat, sun nights.

It also might be easier to work on one twin at a time, at least re: middle of the night wakings, a lot easier than having two kids setting each other off!! I would do the night routine with both, but work with one twin at a time for other wakenings and just move the other twin into my bed when he wakes up the first time in the meantime.

Don't get discouraged, this will probably take at least a couple of weeks, but keep at and stay determined and it will happen!

 

I'm just going to give you more support for working on sleep even though it will be hard!

we did a pick-up/put down routine at 10 months to get our frequently waking (like 8+ times a night!) DS to learn how to sleep without needing a boob in his mouth. My husband did it just to remove the boobs from the equation, but I think I could have done it too. My husband would go in and just hold DS until he calmed down, then he'd lay him down again and tell him it was "sleepytime". DS would cry again and he'd pick him up, calm him down, then lay him down again until he finally learned to fall asleep on his own.

I will warn you that it took a LONG time. Almost 2 weeks of that intervention and it involved a regression after about 4 nights. DS cried less and less in my husband's arms each night,t hen ramped up again for a few nights, then finally my husband was getting him to sleep with minimal crying and by patting his back.

I think it's misleading to hear something like "no cry sleep solution" and think there will be no crying for kids who have developed really strong habits, such as only being able to nurse to sleep, etc.

We don't do cry it out, but we are ok with a baby crying in our arms or in our presence while we work on soothing them to sleep.

Sleepless in America is another great book with lots of ideas about routines and winding down.

Good luck! Sleep stuff sucks. After our initial success with my first son (getting him to sleep 4-5 hour stretches) he then became chronically ill for several months and so we weren't able to work on getting him to sleep through the night until he was well again because he needed extra nursing at night to maintain his weight and his doctor recommended I not stop night nursing until he was better. He was up 2-3 times a night until he was 23 months old and I considered that good sleep for a long time because prior to that he'd been up 8+ times a night.

You can do it! It will be hard work, made harder by being so tired, but will be worth it if you can stay calm and persistent with routines, etc.

 

ahhhhh... I think they are getting worse. We start getting them ready for bed between 6:30 and 7. Thats really the earliest I can swing between my other kids and husbands work schedule. They usually take close to an hour to get down. Last night they were both down for 15 minutes and then I was up non-stop with one or both of them until 1:30AM. Then they both slept about 2 hours before being up and down again.

What I don't understand, is that it used to be when they woke up and I picked them up they were instantly their happy good natured selves. As of late they ake up angry. They kick, scream, and writhe around making it very difficult to hold on to them. Could their molars coming in be causing them pain? A food allergy? They don't seem to be having any problems during the day. They are happy and playful all day long even with little sleep at night and no naps. I can't figure out what's going on!

My husband is getting to the point where he thiks they're just being ornery. He thinks we need to just put them in bed and let them scream for hours until they pass out from exhaustion. I am with him on feeling exhausted and overwhelmed, but I can't bear the thought of letting these guys just scream for hours on end.

 

Trisha: It is very normal for them to regress or even get worse before they get better. Try to stay the course if you can. They very likely are being ornery and don't like the change! If you can keep it as consistent as possible for as long as possible hopefully you will start to see results. Big hugs. That kind of non-sleeping with two kids at once is miserable.

 

I have been plagued by sleep challenges with my guys from what seems like the beginning so i feel your pain! I agree with PPs that consistency is key and that regression is a part of the process. I have experienced your frequent waking challenges and defInitely feel it is about being overtired. If their daytime sleep is bad, bedtime, and their nighttime sleep, inevitably will be too. I like Dr Harvey Karp's new sleep book. He says a good bedtime actually starts in the morning. They need exposure to daylight in the morning and a good morning nap to start. Your guys are older but you may find, as I have done with mine, that backing up to a routine that is more the norm for younger ones helps get them back on track. Bedtime is between 6:30 and 7:00. We do the same routine every night and they now go now pretty well. Something we have had to be absolutely consistent about is that any wakings between bedtime and 6:00am are treated as night wakings. No lights are turned on, there is no talking. We meet their needs, usually with rocking or breastfeeding and then it's back to bed. One of my guys "likes to party" and can snap wide awake any time in the night. If he does, we ignore him and let him do his thing so he doesn't get the idea that we will join him in the party at night. This has really curbed the partying. You are at your wits end right now, I know, but I thought I would share the perspective that it can and does get better. If you can stick with it through this ornery phase, hopefully there is a bit of peace on the other side. Good luck!

 

Uuugg, I agree with the pp that sometimes things get worse before they get better and you should stay the course. Great job getting bed time moved earlier!

I really think you would benefit from reading "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child' by Marc Weissbluth. I think there are a lot of things going on and the more you understand the natural sleep patterns of different age children the better you will be at making smart choices for how to handle issues. He also addresses things like night waking, discusses the options establishing healthy sleep using methods such as crying it out and other more moderate approaches. (don't get the one on twins it assumes you have read the first one. get the regular one)
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/healthy-sleep-habits-happy-child-marc-weissbluth/1100621365

Couple of questions, have you had any success at adding nap(s)? Do you have a regular bed time routine? Do you have a clear and consistent plan for night-time awakenings? Do you have a goal to teach them how to self-sooth?

I agree with your husband that they are being ornery or as Wiessbluth calls it 'protest crying'. He says '..all evidence accumulated by a wide array of child health specialists concludes that 'protest' crying at bedtime will not cause permanent emotional or psychological problems.'
Although i can't say the same for the stress it puts on parents!

My personal response when I am trying to sooth a child who does not want to be soothed (screaming and thrashing) is to put the child down and move away. I don't go far and always come back in a few minutes and try again to sooth them but if they don't want to be comforted then who am i to push it on them. Sometimes we all need a good cry.

My SIL said to me 'I think that is his 'leave me the _____ alone cry''. My response was, my child would never use such language! And, he is my baby, of course he wants me to comfort / rock him to sleep.
However, she was right! crying can mean: I am hungry, I am tired, I need changed, I need to be held, and... it can mean, 'leave me alone please, I need to sleep'.
Just thought I would throw this out there. Without being there, it is hard to tell what information will be helpful for you.

One other thing that really helped me when I try to decide which circumstances to respond to immediately and which ones I should delay my response.
'..studies have proven that crying produces accelerated forgetting of a learned response. So when a child cries, he may more quickly unlearn to expect to be picked up. When trying to stop an unhealthy habit, crying may have some benefit, because crying acts as an amnesic agent.' (Weissbluth)

The tricky thing is the following are all tied together and all affect sleep.
Early bed time (check)
Establish Naps
Minimal / no attention for night-time awakening
Learning to self-sooth

It is hard work but it will pay off!

 

I found this website and thought you might be interested.

http://www.babysleepsite.com/tag/healthy-sleep-habits-happy-baby/

is sounds like you could get an individualized plan for your LOs and then also have unlimited counseling from an expert on sleep. There is a cost but considering what a sleep specialist probably charges it might be worth a try.

Thinking about you and hoping you are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I'm not a fan of Weissbluth because he's very rigid and doesn't take into account certain developmental needs of babies, but I did really like Sleepless in America for understanding the sleep needs and routines of toddlers, pre-schoolers and older children. The author of Sleepless in America is not dissimilar to Weissbluth in establishing regular nap times and bedtimes and routines, but it's a gentler approach. But in Sleepless in America it is very much about making bedtimes and being in bed a peaceful time and she has strategies for helping to calm children down and reduce any anxiety associated with going to bed, etc.

But do keep in mind that at your twins age, some crying alone is not problematic if you need to leave to re-group or even if you decide to do a CIO or modified CIO approach.

I hope things have been going better since you last posted.

 

We do have a nigh time routine. I still haven't been able to get them to take any regular naps. Sometimes maybe 30 minutes or an hour if I'm lucky.

When they wake up we find thm standing in bed crying. We will pick them up and pat their backs or rock them to sleep. This can sometimes take up to an hour. I haven't been nursing them for at least 4 hours after they go to sleep (the first time). If they wake up and are thrashing around we put them down for a minute or two and tell them they cant do that if they want mommy or daddy to hold them, then we pick them back up and repeat as necessary. We currently have them sleeping in separate rooms so they don't wake each other up. They wake up at night anywhere from 3-10 times each. Some nights, we literally get NO sleep. The last few nights have been particularly bad

 

Have you ever had them in the same room? I just read somewhere in the last couple of days that many kids sleep better when they are not alone. It may take a day or two for them to learn to sleep through each other's crying, but they will learn. All my three girls are in the same room now and don't wake each other up.

 

There is some really good advice in this thread and I have seen it work for so many people, here and on other sites. Have you been able to try any of the suggestions?

 

Maybe we should try this. They are kind of restless sleepers, but if they are comforted being next to each other its worth a shot!

 

Yes I have. We already had a nighttime routine. Still doing that. We have moved their bedtime WAY up. We are consistently putting them down if they are screaming and writhing around when they wake at night.

 

Ugh. I'm sorry things are still so miserable. I know I've posted it before, but staying the course really consistently will hopefully work eventually. It sounds like they have never learned how to sleep and so now need intensive, very consistent patterns which it sounds like you are maintaining now. Just giving you some mental props to keep going.

I do hope things begin to shake out soon. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to try some crying alone given they are old enough to know you're not abandoning them. Something has to give and it can't be your sanity. I almost never recommend crying it out, but a very wise woman on our local AP group is a psychologist and she said that by 16 months toddlers have excellent object permanence (meaning they know you'll come back unlike much younger babies) and that they are also good at manipulating and habituating parents to behaviors. She even recommends that some alone time in a dark room can be useful to break really severe sleep behaviors.

Just sending more hugs. I have been chronically sleep deprived for a long time, but have not had to deal with what you are with TWO toddlers.

 

Someone, Daisies I think, posted a link to the baby sleep site - they are sleep training specialists, Nicole Johnson's team are brilliant (if you can't afford their help, they have weekly newsletters and even a pay-it-forward program) - she will even reply personally to you if you send her an email. I would really consider getting some professional help. Don't underestimate the power of sleep, not only for your children but for yourselves too. There is help out there and it sounds like it would really benefit you.

 

Trisha -

My condolences to you on the loss of your sleep. :gah: I can only imagine how difficult that must be!!! You already have lots of advice on sleep time/schedules. I know you mentioned they just started on solids... have you tried oatmeal? I did not have the extreme sleep difficulties that you are having, but I noticed my kids slept better eating oatmeal instead of rice cereal. My singleton didn't sleep through the night until 10 months... right after I switched from rice cereal to oatmeal. I did have to mix it with juice or cinnamon/sugar to entice him to eat it! I know this isn't earth shattering advice, but it's a simple thing to try.

It does sound to me that they are overtired (duh! I think that has been established!). I personally would have concentrated on getting one long nap (at least 1.5 hours) out of them after lunch and hope that the night time sleep would fall into place. But, I am certainly no sleep expert and didn't write any books!!! Good luck, and keep us posted!

 

so that is a good start and if you are occasionally getting a nap (even though it is still too short) it sounds like you are moving in the right direction.

i did not breastfeed my kids at night so i don't have any experience in this but my guess is that by this age they should not need ANY feeding at night.??
of if so ONE FEEDING at MOST.

what time is their bed time now?
have you started a sleep log?
do you have a plan for night time wakings and decreasing their dependency on you to return to sleep?

 

This is totally a shot in the dark, but have you had their ears checked for fluid? Have they had colds periodically since they were infants?

I only ask this because my oldest DS was a horrible sleeper, up all the time and difficult to console. Some of it was habitual waking to nurse, but I honestly believe in hindsight that he was had fluid in his ears from a young age that went undiagnosed because he didn't actually have ear infections (but he did get colds very frequently starting around 3-4 months of age). He didn't get his first ear infection until he was about 14 months old (and it went undiagnosed I think for a while because we assumed it was his molars coming in that was causing him pain and not his ears--it was both) and then had chronic infections until he got ear tubes at 19 months. During that time, he rarely ate solid foods and only wanted to nurse and he woke frequently. He was also very slow to start solids as an infant which may have been due to his ears.

Shortly after he got his ear tubes, he started sleeping 8-9 hour stretches and within 3 months was consistently STTN 10-11 hours without waking.

It's something to consider if they haven't been checked recently. I wouldn't totally discount a health issue combined with poor sleeping habits (the one could be causing the other).

 

Thank you for your continued ideas and suggestions! Elliot took a three hour nap yesterday and a two hour nap today! That's unheard of for him. Dylan took 30 minute naps both days. Boys are still having bad nights, especially Elliot lately.

I was able to get one of the books suggested, healthy sleep habits happy babies. I have just started to look at it. I am also pursuing another sleep book. I haVe also been looking at The sleep site posted by daisies above. I wish I had the cash to get a customized sleep plan. Actually, if I knew it would work, I might try to find a way to find the money. I just keep thinking there can't be anything new that's not in all of these sleep books....

Then there is my mom who thinks the babies are just being ridiculous and I should just let them CIO. My husband is starting to think o too. I'm not opposed to a little crying, but I can't stand the thought of these guys ruling for hours on end. I know some people have great success with CIO, but I know there must be some way I can get these boys to sleep without doing that.

 

I'm sure they don't NEED to be nursed at night... I've been trying to gradually when them off of this and it has been getting better. The problem is when I am up with them that's what they want! I've been good about pushing the time I'll nurse them back later and later.

We start getting ready for bed around 7ish
We don't have a sleep log. I don't know if my husband and I are sane enough at night to keep track of how many times we are up and down. Lol, but we probably should keep one.
Nope, not really. Soothe them back to sleep...do it again....and again...