Awesome article

I have been wanting to reply to this thread for a while now, but am struggling to convey what I mean properly without being snarky. Here goes.

A. Murtygirl, I'm glad your intent isn't just to :stir: . Thanks for clearing that up. I am still confused on something, however- If you did come in here to get help for a friend, why not ask for it? You have not replied to my offer which is odd if you truly want help. As I stated previously, even if you disagree with most of our feelings towards 'breast is best' you cannot argue that we don't want more babies breastfed.

We have a forum for debate, it's called The Den. Generally, people who want to debate the merits of formula v. breastmilk go there or even Twinstuff Club to get multiple opinions. That's not to say that bottle-feeding members aren't welcome here. There are plenty of people who have fed their kids a mixture of BM and formula who get help with whatever issue they have. It's just saying that this tends to be a spot where people who support breastfeeding congregate; which does include articles and research as it comes up about breastfeeding. This thread's topic description is "for any would be lactivists". This to me doesn't necessitate debate as lactivists promote breastfeeding over formula.

B. AmynTony, I'm not sure what I personally can do to prove to you breastfeeding is healthier than formula. You don't want any studies as you don't believe them. Anecdotally, the sickest kid I knew (my cousin) had tubes twice / ear infections aplenty and was never breastfed. My own children were and haven't have an ear infection to date. I was BF for 6 weeks and got an odd ear infection here and there, but not more than 1/year and did not require tubes. Would he have been so sick if he was BF? No one can tell. But we are in the same family and do share genetic material (we actually look like siblings as a side note).

I can say that even if formula is nutritionally similar to BM, it does have it's problems.
Bugs
Melamine

Lastly, there are a number of things that can change to support breastfeeding as a society. Rachel (miss_bossy18) named many, all of which I agree with. I would also like to add a resurgence in wetnurses and milk banks. There are people (women, mostly :lol: ) who cannot breastfeed. Nobody denies this. The gray area is there are people who can who choose not to. I'd like more viable alternatives for that group where they do not have to turn to artifical milk. I think wetnurses and milk banks are a good source of milk in that situation and should be cheaper and more accessible for families.
ETA: clarity between links.

 

I want to know the public health issues and health risks that everyone keeps name dropping about - like I said aside from the reduction in breast cancer rates for mom - I don't see anything on the level of public health crises (like AIDS, Cholera etc..) that is being explained that breastfeeding solves...I read the links - with the exception of the melamine (which was shown to be far below FDA levels) the bug parts is suspect - they weren't sure they were in there or not...

 

Here's a scholarly article showing how the rates of non-breastfeeding in the US creat "just over 1 billion dollars in extra healthcare costs a year". http://janriordan.net/documents/CONBF.pdf

That's not a public health issue?

edited--better to look at this link of my google scholar search http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=healthcare+costs+breastfeeding&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=1
just in case you don't like the example I pulled.

 

I came here with the intention of doing a search on weight gain in the breastfeeding forum. I am sure you are aware that one can do a search and read up on the issue. If I didn't find any realted info I was going to post a question about it. But since I am not a regular here I just was trying to lurk to find some answers. THe first thing I saw upon entering this forum was this thread and it fired me up and turned me off, quite frankly. So again, I am explaining myself. I should NOT have to. Is that thourough enough for you? I am sorry if I sound offended, but I am. I am sorry if my remarks have offended or made anyone uncomfy here in this forum. My intention was not to stir the pot. But in my opinion, I am not the one who started with the complete one-sidedness on this issue.

eta...My friends baby is four weeks old and as of todays weight check is just now back to her birth weight (7 lb 8 oz). The dr wanted her to feed every 2 hours but the baby would sleep through the night and so mom is just waking her once in the night to feed (lucky momma!) Was trying to get real life examples for her.

Also, I am not a rewards member so I dont have access to the Den

 

I think Meximeli has addressed the public health aspect.

As to my links, yes, the melamine was below the FDA's levels...

You are right about the bugs. Abbott Laboratory wasn't sure they were definitively in the formula. They also couldn't be sure they weren't and took an estimated $100 million loss. The bottom line is the company themselves weren't confident of the integrity of the product. Why should anyone else be?

 

Mutygirl--you should point your friend to www.kellymom.com which is a treasure trove of information and she should be able to find something dealing with her problem there--if not at http://www.drjacknewman.com/

 

The US government, at http://womenshealth.gov/breastfeeding/why-breastfeeding-is-important/ goes way over the 1 billion I cited earlier, it says

Of course I believe there are tons of formula feed children out there who are healthy. And of course there are breastfeed babies that are sickly too. But this is across the board nation-wide. Of course other issues contribute to our over all health. And we need to work on improving those too.

 

Did you know that breastfeeding mothers are likely to get MORE sleep than their formula feeding counterparts and thus have lower risk of depression? New research
Did you know a woman who breastfeeds for 24 months during her lifetime has a 50% decreased chance of getting RA.
Did you know breastmilk kills cancer cells ? Lots of research and comparison

Even just consider the "GREEN" effect of breastfeeding vs. Formula feeding. Do you know how much waste/pollution etc would be kept out of air and landfills if more people breastfed?

 

sorry but all that study says is that X amount of infants that come to the hospital for X malady aren't breastfed - I don't see the correlation other than sick babies that had to go to the hospital...where is the statistic on babies that ARE breastfed going to the ER? - besides the study itself states its flawed because the sample size is too small...

sorry I call BS - if this is true why is it that I see many and various threads from people trying to wean their 15-18-20 month olds from feeding 5 times a night...

the only waste from formula feeding is the containers from the formula - which in large part can be recycled - and the possibility of drop ins liners - which can also be rinsed and recycled...besides what about women that exclusively pump - would you place them in that category also? and exactly how does formula feeding pollute the air?

Look I exclusively, guilt free formula fed my kids from birth - and nothing that any lactivist could have said would have changed my mind...even the LC in the hospital recommended that I NOT breastfeed - she steadfastly told me that she would help me if I wanted the help but she'd seen far too many twin moms try and damn near kill themselves and doesn't recommend it to multiple mommies - oh and she had been a nurse for 20+ years and was a certified IBCLC LC so she knew what she was talking about...

 

IBCLCs are not all created equal. Even if they have been doing it for 20+ years, some people are just crummy at their jobs- she sounds like one of em.


The production, packaging, and promotion of formula also contribute to pollution.
" Finally, baby formula is the product of a large, and for most mothers, unnecessary industrial process, all of which adds to pollution in a variety of ways large and small. The list includes production plants that pollute, trucks that burn polluting diesel fuel, the use of harmful pesticides and genetically modified organisms to grow soy and cattle fodder, packaging that contributes to deforestation and pollution and more -- all in service of a product that is both nutritionally and developmentally inferior for infants. " Heres the link

Ever notice the WHO or the AAP don't endorse formula as the recommended way to feed your baby? Its not that breast isn't best, its that its the psychological NORM for a baby. Humans are the only mammals that have a CHOICE in how they feed.

 

Humans are the only mammals who can have Internet conversations too. That doesn't seem to be stopping anyone. At the end of the day, we ARE humans. Not dogs or cats or cows.

 

why is she crummy? because she told me not to waste my time and energy on something that may or may not work, would depress me even further and that I could have no help with? It's YOUR opinion that she's crummy because you 'd like to see every woman cram their boobs in their babies mouth whether that kid is getting any nutrition or not and just keep trying till they die of exhaustion, rather than give them "inferior" food...

I need to step out of this discussion now because its going to get really ugly on my end - lets just say I agree with murtygirl in that a happy baby is a FED baby whether that food comes from a bottle or not.

 

If we are discussing happiness than I completely agree that a HAPY BABY is one thats being fed.
I thought we were discussing WHY breastmilk is healthier for babies, mothers and the environment.

She's crummy because a good lactation consultant believes in breastfeeding (its her job too) to encourage all women, to NEVER give them permission to quit. If a woman decides not to breastfeed or quit breastfeeding its not because a lactation consultant helped her with that choice. Its because she did it on her own. As a lactation professional, the job consist of providing accurate information and support.

Clearly you haven't spent much time around breastfeeding babes. Mothers hold, babies feed. There is NO way to make a baby nurse who doesn't want too. If a baby isn't getting nutrition, then thats a time when a woman needs help & support.

Even mothers who bottlefeed, should feed as if they are emulating breastfeeding. Mom should hold the baby, the nipple should not wonder. The feeding should be paced, the mother should switch sides, feeding cues should be observed, skin to skin is still very important.

I find it bothersome that you cant have a conversation about the differences without getting upset, especially if you are happy with your decision. I don't worry about the moms who are happy with their decisions. I worry about the moms who don't have accurate information to make informed choices. Who don't have the support or the help if they need. Who look back and have regret and remorse.

 

yes but we don't need the internet to survive. If formula weren't available as a "choice" how many more people do you think would DIE each year? Probably quite a few.

 

I doubt many would die from from formula not existing. If formula had never been created and sold I would assume that the job of the wet nurse would be alive and well, and in this day and age there would likely be a whole lot more milk banks. In fact I'd bet that buying and selling breast milk could become big business!

 

A "good" anything is subjective to its audience. To me a good LC would also be one that has compassion for all mothers and not force them to do something that isnt right for them or their babies. If I had a woman standing over me as I am trying to nurse 32 weekers with nipples shields, crying, frustrated, trying to get me to pump the other side while I was trying to nurse a 5 pound "comatose" baby tell me that I can NEVER give up...I am pretty sure my dose of Zoloft would have been at the max after my DH checked me out of the hospital.

Jess, I respect your passion about breastfeeding. But you have to know that its a put off to have something repeatedly chanted at you. We all make decisions based on outside factors. Outside factors that LC's arent privy too. If I only had to nurse two babies and not take care of a third, my decisions may have been different. And what I take away from this thread is that all breastfeeding moms think they are superior because they are using their breast to feed a baby, pumping still isnt good enough, and dont even bother to buy a can of formula to supplement that you might "regret." Doesnt feel very supportive to me. ardon:

 

And formula is a bad thing?

 

this comment serves no purpose...There IS formula. Period. So no one is dying. Also, there would be wet nurses if mothers could not breastfeed.

 

I will throw in a little tid bit. On the whole no formula, kids die thing. My dh's grandmother is from Italy(as are his parents). Well...guess what. She couldn't breastfeed. And she tried. She had four kids. So, they milked the cow and added a little bit of water, and fed the babies. And slowly they decreased the water until it was full milk. They didn't grow up in Rome or Florence. It was southern Italy, a bit poorer than other areas. Doctors were not local. Nor were stores, or roads even. But they made it work. It's what worked for them.

 

Maybe we all need to stop take a deep breath, and have a Mommy time out here. This is a breastfeeding support forum, and I think those of us who are veterans are setting a bad example by treating this like the Den. I feel really bad for any of the new Moms in the post pardum hormonal phase who come in here looking for support and information on breastfeeding and run into this thread.

We should be able to talk about breastfeeding in a way that is noncombative where people don't make broad sweeping generalizations about women who breastfeed or women who don't breastfeed. We should really be able to approach this in a more logical way like we do any other health and social issue.

For example, just like there is a lot of research on the health benefits of breastfeeding for mothers and infants, there is quite a bit of research on the benefits of running, walking, or jogging 2 miles day. Let's say I have a passion for jogging, and I try to get others involve in jogging. I cite numerous studies on the benefits of jogging, walking, or running, as a reason for others to get involved in jogging. Does this mean I think everyone who doesn't jog 2 miles a day like me, is a bad person; does it mean that I find myself to be superior to those who do not jog? No, it clearly doesn't. See unlike the politics of jogging the politics of breastfeeding is all tied up with the politics of gender and motherhood, and I think this causes many of us to approach breastfeeding not as a health issues, an environmental issue, or economic issue, but as a referendum on motherhood and womanhood. And when we (meaning women and mothers) do that, we really start looking like a bunch of crabs in a barrel. Those of us who advocate breastfeeding, should be able to talk about it's benefits, and we should be able to talk about why we think it is a better feeding method without people sniping. Those who advocate formula should be able to give their kids formula without having people see that as a sign of being a bad mother. And we all should remember that no matter what a person's infant feeding method, it is not a referendum or her as a mother or a woman. How we feed our infants is just a tiny sliver of who we are as mother's and women.

 

With all due respect Rachel, the vast majority of us haven't said that, and we don't feel that way. If I though pumping or giving formula made someone an inferior mother than I would think I was an inferior mother. I kind of feel like in these debates, all mothers who breastfeed and all lactivists are held personally accountable for the statements of a few, and that's not fair.

 

Rachel, I totally get that. However, sometimes the ones that scream the loudist, strike a chord, or leave a mark are the ones that leave an impression of which I was trying to point out.

 

I agree. I guess I feel like this is a given which is why I didn't state that plainly. Additionally, thats why I said if a mother is going to bottlefeed that you would help her to emulate breastfeeding. And you wouldn't tell a mom you can NEVER give up. You would say " I know this is hard, you're doing a really great job. ANY amount of breastmilk you can give your baby is wonderful" and you would listen. and you would help support her in whatever capacity served best.
In my experience most women that seek me out want help, Im not chanting or preaching to people who don't want the help/information.

As a mother that pumped for a baby for a year (due to her cleft) I certainly DID not feel inferior for not breastfeeding my baby. If anything I felt more empowered. Its the hardest thing Ive ever done in my life.
and my first twin did get formula supplementation. Its supporting the breastfeeding, and making the feeds most like breastfeeds and encouraging every drop of breastmilk. Just 1 tsp has 3,000,000,000 germ fighting cells. Thats amazing.

 

Have you ever read the book Milk Money & Madness? Its a phenomenal read and talks a lot about infant mortality and how formula evolved using methods like the one you describe.

 

:rotflmbo:

I'm sorry! Thanks for the laugh.

 

Thank you Rachel (Sullivan) for calmly and logically pointing this back to the issues.

What got this all rolling out of control is I said it was a public health issue. And certain people refuse to believe that.

I certainly do not think formula is poisen nor do I want to make it more difficult to access--but I do want to make it less normal. For example, I don't drink ensure nor do I give my kids pediasure. But that doesn't mean I want it to be unavailable for people who feel they need it--but I'd hate to see a time when 90% of the kids were bringing a pediasure in their school lunch. I supplemented my twins when they were babies, and I would supplement them now if they needed that--but only after trying natural food first.

It is my personal belief that a lot of women in our society today are set up to fail at breastfeeding. Their is a great series of articles by the Best for Babe organization on the "booby traps" in our culture that contribute to women never inticating breastfeeding or quiting early. Everyone should read those. No matter what choice you made yourself. Not because you regret your choice, but because you should be informed.
Breastfeeding is a health issue--just like the widespread consumption of large amounts of soda.
What's shocking to me that there are people who deny that. It's a kin to dening the exsistance of a growing diabetes epidemic.

 

um, no I never said I refuse to believe its a public health issue, I asked you to prove what that public health issue is - other than Rachel pointing out that breast cancer rates among women that breastfeed are lower - I've seen nothing akin to such issues as MRSA, AIDS, Cholera, malnutrition etc...THOSE are public health issues...counting how many un-bf'ed babies go to the ER because they have diarrhea is NOT a public health issue -

so its not that I don't believe it, I just haven't been shown what SERIOUS things are happening to millions of people that are dying because they aren't or weren't bf'ed...

 

I am not sure why this was pointed out. I am pretty sure that substitutes for breastmilk have been going on for millenia in the absence of being able to breastfeed. Wet nurses wouldn't always have been available, and I doubt any mother would let her child die rather than substituting another form of milk. I think it's something to keep in mind that even since the advent of formula infant mortality rates are INCREDIBLY low compared to a century ago.

I don't know how this thread got so off track. I fully support bf'ing in the way that I support any type of healthy diet because I do believe it's a health issue and an environmental issue. However, I also fully understand that there are emotional and physical barriers to bf'ing for some women that get in the way of being able to breastfeed. I think all we can do as a culture is to try and make it more acceptable to breastfeed openly and provide support to mothers who are struggling. It's like any other public health initiative; you can't just change public opinion overnight and you certainly can't go out and tell people what they're doing is wrong without a huge backlash. Public health campaigns take decades to be successful and to bring about a new norm for behaviour. And formula will never fully go away because it's not harmful to babies. It's a substitute food for mothers who can't provide breastmilk all the time. It even says that right on the can!

 

Also, as to the debate of whether it is a public health issue or not.. of course there are a lot of serious things that need to be addressed out there. Absolutely. However, bf'ing is something that every mother can choose to attempt and there is plenty of literature out there to suggest that it does provide benefits and it is a low/no cost option for feeding babies. So to me it's a kind of no-brainer public health initiative becuase it can hopefully provide better health to the general population of babies and also reduce costs for families on a broad scale. It would make total sense to invest in that as a public health initiative.

And I am a biologist. I know that there is some good research going into formulas etc, but in general we usually aren't very good at mimicking natural processes very well. So while we might develop some really good formulas that work as a substitute, we don't really fully understand everything that breast milk does well enough to say that formula does all the same things. In my mind it's like genetically modified foods or processed food; nature just does a better job at providing nutrients than we do at re-creating them in the lab.

 

I don't disagree with a lot of your premise Melissa. Women are set up to fail, there is not enough support, it is very hard to continue breastfeeding when going back to work at 6 or 8 weeks, there is low support for public breastfeeding, there should be commercial milk banks that are easily accessible, etc. I'll even give you that breast is best where all else is equal and that it's a public health issue. All that said, my issue starts when you see comments like, "I can't believe women don't even try," "Formula should be available only by prescription," etc. In a vacuum, breast is best. In a specific case, it is not always best. I think it's possible to talk about the societal issues facing women without making judgment statements about women. Those judgment statements hurt more than help the cause. Saying that women are "wrong" or "deceiving themselves" if they feed formula or saying that it should be illegal to formula feed without a prescription does not help the cause. No one has told me I should have to have a doctors note to walk instead of jog. You can't force people to breastfeed. It would be inherently wrong to try. You can support them in making their choice.

 

I generally agree with you here. I think part of the problem that you get into is the same thing you get into with any public health issue, and that is the "big brother problem" (or maybe in this case the big mother problem ). The only thing we can do is provide people with the best possible information and then give the social, medical, and financial support necessary to help them maintain whatever healthy behavior we desire.

I personally would oppose the idea of formula by prescription primarily because I don't think formula is medicine and should not be treated as such. And I think people often treat it that way; I've routinely seen people suggest that formula is a cure for PPD and reflux. Also if you look at the language and marketing of formula, it is marketed more like a medicine than a food product.

I also want to reiterate the point, that just because some breastfeeding Moms or lactivists may have a negative opinion of women who do not breastfeed, it's clearly a minority. There seems to be a widespread stereotype that breastfeeding Moms think they are superior, and I think that's why so many are so quick to latch on to comments they deem inflamatory rather than focusing on the majority who don't feel that way.

 

Well said. Especially as this forum is really intended to provide support to mothers who are bf'ing and particularly those who are struggling; I would hate to think that people felt criticized and berated when they're at their most vulnerable. There's lots of discussion to be had about breastfeeding, but in here maybe we need to try and be encouraging toward individuals and their circumstances.

 

Points galore today.

I find this an interesting dilemma in the bf'ing discourse. I felt very proud of myself for struggling and fighting through the first 6 months to eventually bf my kids for 15 months. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I was glad to have this forum to discuss how proud I was of my accomplishments. However, I don't think I am a superior mother or anything like that.. just stubborn as a freaking mule. I had a couple of mothers who FF get very defensive even though I rarely got into a discussion about nursing and hold no judgement over FF.

I know that the message that breast is best starts early here in the health care system although the resources and support that people get is variable. I wonder how many FF moms wanted to BF and didn't get support so they quit and how much societal opinion is just changing toward breast is best.

 

Amy any illness is a public health issue even if it may seem minor, and even those "minor" illnesses can be fatal in a certain percentage of the population. You know the number one killer of babies in the developing world is diarrhea(gastroenteritis), and the evidence for breastfeeding lowering the incidence of gastroenteritis is strong. This is why it is safe to say that breastfeeding saves lives. It's really sad to see what's happened in developing countries with the introduction of infant formulas. The companies make all kinds of unsubstantiated claims, and since many of the people are not well educated, they are quite susceptible to these claims. Furthermore, many people are too poor to continue to pay for formula for an entire year, so they send them home with cans of formula, and the mothers give the baby formula which decreases their milk supply. Then, these poor women are forced to make very difficult decisions, like feeding their older kids vs. feeding their infants. On top of all this, they don't have good access to clean water and electricity, so sterilizing baby feeding equipment is difficult. It pretty indisputable that infant mortality is the developing world goes up when more babies are fed formula.

It makes a difference in the mortality rate here in the developed world as well albeit not as dramatic. Again it helps with vulnerable populations like infants with poor mothers (we also have WIC and other nutritution programs to offset much but not all of that problem)and premature infants. Someone posted a study on here one time about premature infants, and the study found a 20% decrease in the mortality rate from NEC (necrotizing enterocolitis). The study's authors said that something like 5 out of every 100 preemies die from NEC, so mathematically translated that means we could save the 1 life for every one hundred preemies, and we're just talking about deaths from NEC, not deaths from any other maladies. Although I personally would argue, that the difference here in the developed world is more about lowered incidences of obesity, allergies, colds, and so on, not the risk of death.

 

I forgot that I wanted to elaborate on why I reject the language of "personal choice." As I stated previously, there are numerous social factors that go into our "personal choices;" however, I also feel like the language of personal choice is a huge factor in setting up women for feeling like a failure if they do not exclusively breastfeed. If you think about it, 65% of women initiate breastfeeding, but by 6 months the number exclusively breastfeeding is down in the teens. 65% made the "personal choice" to breastfeed, but just they just wake up one day and say hey I've changed my "personal choice" and quit breastfeeding? No they didn't. They went back to work. The got bad advice from Drs. and other medical professionals. They faced pressure to quit from friends and family members. They got wrong or bad advice (E.g.-They were really freakin' tired and somebody told them their kids would sleep all night if they gave the kids formula.). They doubted their supply because they didn't know how to measure if the baby was getting enough, or they doubted their supply because of the larger social messages that cause women to question their ability as mothers. And the list could go on and on. It wasn't just a personal decision; it was a decision a decision made in a larger social context, and the language "personal choice" negates the larger social context putting all of the onus back on the individual woman and making it look like she failed. In my view the system failed her; she didn't fail herself.