Circumcision

I'm not questioning her choices. She is questioning mine. And in a fairly attacking way. So no, I don't feel rude. I tried polite, and it didn't work. Beyond that, I'm not doing this with you.

 

imagine what a baby goes through when s/he is born through the birth canal. Imagine an adult going through the same process. Imagine getting twisted, pulled, squeezed through the birth canal. Some babies do cry for a moment after delivery but once past that process they calm and are peacefully sleeping. I can only imagine how an adult would feel if they were twisted, pulled and squeezed in the same way. They would not be peacefully resting after a process like that

 

I think this is a really good analogy. But I also really liked the tonsillectomy analogy that someone else used earlier.

 

You know something I wonder--do men get this worked up over this topic? I'd love to be an eavesdropper on men's circumcision conversations.

FWIW, I don't believe that it is painless for an infant; that doesn't make sense to me either. I tend to agree with Millie when she says we think that because infants are not capable of verbally saying ouch. I'm sure the anesthetic makes it less painful, and I tend to think it's a relatively simple and safe procedure given it's prevalence, but any medical procedure has some risk to it.

 

It's funny you mention this...I asked Tony the other night (after reading this thread) and at 41 years old his circumcision is not even a thought in his head, a blip on his radar or something that EVER even crosses his mind...men just don't discuss these sorts of things...unless asked by a man who is about to be the father of a baby boy for the first time...a few months ago friends of ours were having a little boy and they did come right out and ask if we had circ'ed Ian...and the answer was plain - yes we did, and would do it again...

 

But infants do communicate when they're uncomfortable, don't they? Everything from diaper is wet to hunger to pain. We all were able to tell the first time our kids were sick or hurting or whatever because they cried and fussed.. so why would you assume that they wouldn't if they were fine after circumcision?

 

It's funny, this conversation came up tonight with the twins, because Aaron had some old lotion he hadn't cleaned out from under there. The boys were circumcised, but they left a lot of skin, maybe because they were preemies. They still have to pull quite a bit back to clean. Anyway, I explained to them about how a penis looks when they are born and what circumcision is. Aaron asked me if it hurt when they cut his skin. I said, I was sure it did, but they didn't really cry much. He just said, "Well, I am just glad I don't remember. That's all I care about." I smiled and thought of this thread right away.

 

I told you what Sean said. He said he doesn't have any remorse or anger over not having a foreskin! :rofl:

 

I think that's probably true for most men. It' might even be a somewhat taboo topic for men to talk about with other men unless it is in relation to children. I asked my DH about it too, (but not in relation to the boys because I don't want to have another argument ) and he was telling me that when he was growing up you could tell who was Muslim and who was Christian in the school lockeroom based on who was circumcised, so I guess the boys in his culture were at least sizing each other up. LOL!!

3 points 1) If there was no pain, then why use anesthetic at all? 2) We are removing a piece of skin in a relatively sensitive area; the anesthesia can certainly mask the pain, I'm sure there are plenty of nerve endings in that area. 3) Isn't it always the mantra of Mommmy boards that every child is different; so some boys may feel little to no pain and others may feel more pain? I could even see that in my two boys. The one whose circumcision my husband swore was botched took much longer to heal, and even months later he had irritation and bleeding around the area where his foreskin would have been connected. This was the same kid with the cyst, so we probably would have circumcised him regardless. I used to put antibacterial ointment on his penis because he had bleeding and redness until sometime in the later half of the first year. He definitely had pain; he hated having his penis touched. My husband just kept saying it's not normal, they messed it up, blah, blah, blah, but the doctor said it was fine. For my other son--outside of the bleeding and scabbing in the first few days, he didn't seem to have any problems.

And my concern has always been less about the pain and more about my belief that it should be up to a person to make that decision himself. I'm sure the pain is relatively short lived for most boys. Plus, I don't buy the "it's healthier" to have a circumcised penis argument at all, so I think it's medically unnecessary. I think the vast majority of people in this culture are doing it because of culture, tradition, and the belief that a circumcised penis is more attractive. That was definitely my DH's argument--he just thought of it as something you do to boys, and that the boys should have a penis that looks like their father's. I think he also believed that it would be easier to clean, which may be true, I don't have any first hand experience with that, but I'm sure it's not that hard to teach a boy how to clean his penis.

 

I bet most adult men are happy just the way they are--of course, it's probably a small minority who have been on both sides of the fence .

 

Very interesting debate/thread. We did not cirm'sz DD, but my DH is. We just couldn't bear the though of putting him through any extra pain/discomfort etc. So, we are happy with our decision.
We did read all of the literature and asked several medical professionals, and we did see the argument about men who are circumzd have less chance of getting penile cancer, but the first thought that popped into my brain is that if you dont have much of that body part then of course you have less chance of get cancer there. So, I thought in my brain, if I had anybody part or portion of a body part removed there is less chance of cancer in that area (Ie if you removed someones breasts there is a significantly lower chance of breast cancer), but I wouldnt do that. So, I know this will not sit well with some people, but that is part of my rationale for not having it done.
We live in a part of the world right now where most men are not circumzd, and there doesn't seem to be any big issues with penises here (from a cancer, or cleanliness standpoint - which there should be because there is alot of uncleanliness due to poverty etc).

 

just asked my husband. He said he would not want it done when he was an adult because he would know what was going to happen and he said he thinks it would hurt more if done on a man than on a baby.

 

But, really, most men won't have to have it done as an adult. Sure, there is a slight possibility, but there is a slight possibility that anyone could have to have a tonsillectomy, an appendectomy, or some other operation, but that doesn't mean we preemptively do those surgeries on babies to prevent them from having to go through it as an adult.

Again, not judging anyone for their choices, I just don't think "they might have to have it done later & it will be worse then" is an excuse. I think when it comes right down to it, most people circumcise their sons because that is what they know, their husband is circumcised & he wants his son to be the same, or for other cultural/religious reasons. Which is fine, in my opinion. But I don't buy the argument that it is better to circumcise because of medical problems that might possibly happen to a small number of men down the road.

I know their are religious reasons that circumcision became the norm in the past. But if you take a step back & really look at it, isn't it a bit odd? Baby boys are born with foreskin, it is a part of their body that every boy is born with, how can that be bad? When I look at it objectively, I find it strange that we feel some need to cut off part of their body & say they are better off that way. I wonder if in the future it will be something that people will look back on & wonder why in the world we ever did such things?

 

I guess this just boils it down to our differing opinion on this issue. I think you've raised very valid points, and I can totally understand your position against circumcision. But I am comfortable with the small amount of pain and making that decision for my kids. Like I have said before, I am not sure why I feel that way about it, but I am also comfortable with making some decisions around parenting based on culture and tradition.

 

I agree very much with this, while pain may be an argument, the right to your own body and the right to not have medically innecessary surgery that changes your body, is what I think of. My son needed surgery and he is circumcised now, when he asks, I explain his skin was too tight and his penis would not work correctly this way, we needed to have the skin removed. For me, with my values and my way of bringing up my kids, that is ok, for others explaining that daddy wanted it because it would look like him/the rabbi did it because it is a religious rite, etc... may be the way to go. Again, I don't judge, but I don't share the opinion either. And while I do think (male) circumcision is a fairly minor matter, the right to one's body is not minor at all. I know most every woman reading this right now understand the right to one's body and would never willingly have their girls circumcised or have other things done to their children that would somehow violate that right (tattoo loser onto their foreheads for instance).
I am not a man and I find it hard to imagine what I would think if I had grown up circumcised, I would most probably be fine with it like most men are, but I do think it should be oneself who decides on matters like this. My body, my choice. And yes, I think if men were only allowed to be circumcised as adults most men would not be. Hell, probably only a tiny tiny minority would be (I mean have you seen how most men suffer when they have the sniffles?).

I also like Tina's argument about tonsillectomy and it reminded me of that little developmentally delayed (to a baby standstill) girl who had her sexual organs removed because she would never use/need them (plus to stunt her growth). I fully understand why her parents did it, just like I understand why people circumcise, that does not mean I agree with it or would do it to my child in the same circumstance.

So to sum it up, from an ideology point of view, I guess I think circumcision is wrong. In the real world, I do think it is not a huge deal at all and I have never had a real world argument about it with anybody, ever. But the idea behind it, the idea of taking something away from my child's genital apparatus before he has any say whatsoever in it just because I find it aesthetically pleasing, no I don't like it as an idea.
M.

 

MamaKim nailed it for me. I have been in the medical field for a long time, all with pediatrics. Now as a part of my job, as I mentioned, I assist OBs with circs. Newborns' bodies/nerves/circulation, etc are a million times different from even a 1 month olds'. And kids do bounce back a million times faster the younger they are. Once I give the baby a few drops of sucrose, they calm right down. As I mentioned, they cry when I strap their legs down but then I give them sucrose and they stop. If they are allowed to have a paci they just suck on it and lay there. I'm not saying if it is or isn't painful but it honestly doesn't seem to phase the babies I work with. We apply Vaseline to the tip at every single diaper change and urinating doesn't even seem to bother them. Just my observations......

 

I agree with a lot of what Millie and tinalb said.

For me though, the pain factor was a huge part of my decision, and I'll explain why. There have been studies done that suggest that the silence many infants exhibit after the circ is not due to lack of pain but rather is a shock response from high levels of cortisol and stress. Granted, this information and these studies are mainly discussed in anti-circ literature, and I know many OBs don't give the studies a great deal of credit or are unaware of them. For me though, the studies seemed quite solid and logical.
I know others will disagree.

Secondly, if I understand it correctly, these are studies discussing babies who are circed without any meds. The AAP now recommends meds always be given, even though some doctors do not follow this recommendation. The giving of the meds is probably a little painful, and because the baby can not speak there is no way of knowing whether they are fully numbed before the procedure begins. However, it does seem that the pain meds must work very well for most babies as all the stories on this thread attest.

THere is also evidence to suggest that babies who are circed without pain meds exhibit a form of PSTD to painful events later in babyhood, such as vaccines, etc. This is a quote from a study in the Lancet medical journal (link provided below)

"The results of this study are consistent with studies of pain response in animals and behavioural studies in humans showing that injury and tissue damage sustained in infancy can cause sustained changes in central neural function, which persist after the wound has healed and influence behavioural responses to painful events months later. Pretreatment and postoperative management of neonatal circumcision pain is recommended based on these results. Investigation of the neurological basis of these effects is warranted."

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

So for me the pain was a huge factor because it is my belief that the pain experienced during an unmedicated circ has the potential to have a lasting effect in unexpected ways.

As Cheryl said, the baby goes through the birth canal (or in many cases, mine included, is all sudden removed from the womb via c-section), and this experience must be painful and scary. Even though I know the baby forgets these things, my thought was that because I knew that birth was probably already quite painful and scary I wanted to steer clear of anything that might add any stress to what were, in my opinion, very formative days for the boys.


Please understand I am not judging anyone when I say this. I am just offering a different opinion and explaining why the potential for pain was a big factor in our decision not to circ.

 

This reminds me of a conversation I was having with my counselor. He was talking to me about how our body stores memories of pain that last far longer than our minds can remember. As an example, he used a story of a teenager in counseling who had memories of pain relating back to his birth. After questioning his mother, it was determined that he was delivered breech and in order to make it through the birth canal, his shoulder was broken. My counselor summed it up as the breech delivery bearing trauma on the body that couldn't be forgotten.

I gave him a horrified look because my son was delivered breech and in that instant, I realized that it is very possible my children will on day be sitting in a counselor's office and it's very likely that some of the conversation will be about me.

The decision to circumcise or not is really quite complicated. I know I did not research it and I know my husband didn't either. I'm quite positive that he made his decision based solely on the fact that he himself is circumcised and he would have felt ill equipped to guide his son in penile etiquette. There's plenty of ways around that of course, but I would be willing to be that was his thought process.

In saying that, I can understand the arguments against choosing a body altering surgery for a person without their permission. I totally get that argument and if I'm being honest, I feel a little guilty for not putting more thought into it beforehand. (they should point out during the pregnancy that it will be something you should think about it because it never even crossed my mind!) In any case, I hope my son does not resent or hate us unnecessarily when he is older.

I just can't understand the pain argument when used by itself. Life is not pain-free. Avoiding something with the primary intent to not cause pain is somewhat irresponsible.

I can't speak for everyone who has circumcised their child, but I sincerely doubt that very many (if any) parent chose to circumcise primarily based on finding it aesthetically pleasing or with the intention of causing pain. We do things all the time that cause our children pain and discomfort. But we do it because we love them and we are trying to do what's best for them.

 

I agree totally. Pain is unavoidable throughout all of life beginning at birth with the birthing process itself.

I am not sure if your comment was in direct response to mine or not, or if you are suggesting our concern about pain levels was "irresponsible." Maybe that's not what you are saying, but I do feel the need to clarify. For us, pain was certainly not the only factor. I am a huge believer in *not* sheltering kids from pain that can't be avoided. I am in general anti-sheltering, so I agree with not avoiding pain.

Had I thought it was a needed surgery then I would have done it. Because I did not believe it was medically needed and because I felt pain *could* have lasting effects than we decided against it.

Like I say, I am not saying any of this to judge in anyway or suggest that anyone would ever cause their child pain because I do NOT believe anyone wants to do that, nor do I think all babies who are circ go through a lot of pain, especially now that the AAP recommends meds in all circs.

I am sharing my story because I am just offering how we made our decision and because I appreciated hearing other perspectives when we were trying to decide what to do for our sons.

 

Really wonderful post, Amanda. For me it all boils down to the last part, though. I know people don't mean to criticize others' choices but sometimes it's hard not to feel as if those of who did circ our sons are not as caring because we chose to inflict pain upon them when this is the last thing any of us want in life, to cause our children pain. But as you say, life is not pain-free. I just think there are many worse things in life than a little physical pain which no one will consciously remember later. (Your post about pain we hold onto though reminds me of my friend who practices quantum touch as a form of healing. Fascinating stuff!) Call me callous but I just don't see the big deal about it. Although as Tina points out, when you look at the practice objectively, it does seem odd that our boys are born with a foreskin which we choose to surgically remove. So I also see both sides of the issue to some degree. However, I also think we make a huge deal about it, and in the long run, there seems to be evidence that either way, circ'd or not, most men seem to be pretty comfortable with their penises. :lol:

 

No I wasn't implying you were irresponsible. I really shouldn't type at midnight

To be more clear:

Those of us who circumcised did so for a myriad of reasons. We circumcised when we did because we were told by our doctors that it would be the best time with the least amount of pain. If we had chosen to postpone it, we would have been irresponsible.

That's why I was saying that I can understand the "circumcision is unnecessary" argument, but I can't understand the pain argument by itself.

Just to speak to your suggestion that the babies might go into shock as well, I wanted to point out that my son was circumcised while being monitored in a NICU. I'm not sure how common that is, but his was done a little shy of 35 weeks, right before he was discharged. I watched them do all kinds of painful things to my children in the NICU, including putting in a central line. When traumatic things happened to them, their vitals would change. With the circumcision, he was definitely upset when they brought him back, but within a couple minutes of latching on, his heartrate and oxygen levels were back to normal. If he was in shock, this would not have happened. His reaction to the circumcision was far less than putting in an IV.

As I said before, I totally understand the argument that circumcision is probably not necessary and should be the boy's own decision to make. I wish I had put more thought and research into that. Circumcision honestly never crossed my mind until the doctor mentioned it after he was born. I assumed that there must be a reason most of the men I know are circumcised and I left the decision up to my DH.

I just don't buy the pain argument by itself. We do all kinds of things during our children's lifetimes that cause pain because we believe them to be for their own good. That is all that parents who circumcise are doing. If people feel so strongly about not circumcising, they should push for education. That is what will end the cycle, not fearmongering about pain.

 

I agree very much with what you are saying here. I don't buy the pain argument by itself either, even though elements of it factored largely in our decision because we personally could find no evidence that warranted the procedure. I in no way want to engage in fearmongering. I think it's hard to talk about the issue of pain at all without it being easily misunderstood, which is of deep concern to me because I don't want to be judged as a parent and I don't want to judge anyone else.

Rather, I am sharing the information I came across when I was trying to learn more and offering a perspective that, for us, was part of a much larger decision making process about circ.

I hope I can make clear that I share my story because until my midwife, and then later my OB, talked to me and asked me to educate myself about the details of circ I never even thought much about it. In their efforts to push *me* toward education these are things they asked me to make myself aware of. Now I share this information with others not to breed fear but to pass on information that *for me* was educational. I also deeply understand that for other moms their education led them to make different decisions and they were no less informed or less educated.

The great thing about being exposed to lots of information is that we are able to make decisions, and quite often those decisions lead us all to different outcomes and choices. I agree with you and am a huge proponent of circ education and believe it should be something doctors talk about with parents before before birth and that this education should include information about all sides of the argument and that the issue of pain should be a part of a much larger discussion and should never be used as fearmongering.

 

I agree with this very much. I just posted the same thing on a post in the Den about VBACs. The same information from both sides is going to result in different decisions. Let's assume you and I looked at the same arguments and info, which is probably roughly true. I decided to circumcise and you decided not to. We are both good with our decisions. They were both educated decisions. That's the result we should want, right? I think sometimes the problem is that people believe their conclusions to be the "right" conclusions and therefore believe no other valid decision exists. No matter how much lip service is paid to respecting others' decisions, such respect isn't possible if a person believes their decision is the only right decision. I appreciate your ability to respect others' decisions rather than implying that those decisions were made in ignorance or lack of education. It's commendable.

 

Wow. Thanks. I really appreciate that. I agree very much with the bolded. Well said.

 

Yep, my DS is.