Circumcision

Fair enough. I certainly do not disagree with your story. I would also imagine it is more painful for some babies than others, just as is the case with adults and any form of surgery. I would also think babies, just like adults, have different levels of pain tolerance, and no blanket statements can be made about how much something hurts or does not hurt.

And I have no doubt it is much different at 10 months that at birth. I don't doubt anything you are saying about your own experience.

However, my comment was in response to the pps comment that circ at birth was so different than circ later in babyhood or adulthood, so much so that did not even require tylenol.
From what I understand, it is largely undisputed by the AAP that circ without meds is painful for a baby. http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20060720/doctors-now-ease-pain-of-circumcision

 

Yes, I agree that pain control should be used at any age.

 

I have no idea how one can measure the pain difference at in infancy opposed to adulthood, and I have a strong feeling this notion of little pain in infancy is related to the fact that infants are unable to articulate their pain (as others have said), but I would bet that an infant would heal faster. Younger people generally heal faster, so I can see where that could make a difference.

I can speak for anyone else, but I didn't watch it being done so I have no idea how my boys reacted. I refused to watch it, and my DH wouldn't watch it either, which I found odd since he thought it wasn't that bad.

 

I'm just curious if you actually watched them do it both times? I'm not questioning your assessment or anything; I'm just curious since I totally refuse to watch. I think it would be hard to know how typical your DS's case would be since they messed up the first time. That could have made the second time atypical for a later age cir.

I wonder how many adult men have circumcisions; I bet it's not very common, and I'd also bet that adult men getting circumcised would be much more likely to have a medical reason for having it done. That would be interesting to see the info on that.

 

I watched both my kids circumcision.. in fact, I was the one holding their legs down as they were very gently tied in a towel. They had numbing cream put on and were given tylenol. The procedure itself was over in literally seconds... a quick slice that was that. They both had a good scream for a few minutes after, and then went to sleep and weren't fussy or anything afterwards. We didn't have to repeat surgeries, but I can tell you that even at 18 months my kids nurse injuries more than they ever would have as an infant. A minor bruise is a major drama!

I think part of pain is memory and trying to elicit sympathy.. studies have shown that people report their symptoms as more severe when their loved ones are in the room. And when you're older you remember that something is supposed to hurt so you might be more tender with an injury than a kid would. When they're young, heal faster, and have no memory of the incident they probably just get over it quicker. That's just me spitballing.

 

I didn't see it done either time. But I saw my son afterward and I saw and cared for his penis. And I understood the procedure. There was a huge difference, as I stated--in time, invasiveness, protocol, appearance of pain, and appearance of his penis. And the second surgery was a straightforward circ--if anything they were taking less than they would in a child who had not been previously circed. I assure you I am accurately conveying my experience, and I have the intelligence to comprehend it. It is simply my experience, but medical wisdom completely supports that circs are more complicated and more painful the older a person gets.

 

I also wanted to add.. I watched my husband have a pilonidal cyst removed.. which was a lump at the base of his tailbone (the dr. was pretty relaxed and I am curious like that). It was a pretty gross surgery, but the fact that he was awake and has a memory of the surgery as an adult was psychologically pretty bad and contributed to the pain a lot. Also, my dad woke up during one of his 4 hip replacement surgeries and he always claims that one was the worst surgery he's ever been through.. so that's why I think memory of pain/trauma plays a big part in how bad the experience is.

 

That's interesting that they got the parents involved. I know that's part of the Jewish ceremony, to have everyone there, but since most people in the US getting circumcised are not Jewish; it kind of makes me wonder how often parents actually witness it. I honestly can't remember all of the details around my boys have it done; I just remember flatly refusing to go see it and telling my DH I didn't want to see them in pain for something I thought was not necessary. I'm gonna have to ask him what he remembers. For the longest time he swore up and down that they messed it up on one of the boys, and I even asked the Dr. about it.

I have a friend who had a near death allergic reaction to anesthesia, and she has had many surgeries since that reaction where she only had a spinal. She's watch a few of them. I'm way too much of a wuss to do that. If it involves any kind of blood, I wimp out. I'd be an awful doctor.

 

I am actually surprised to hear that doctors do it without the parents there.. we had ours done at a clinic after we were home from the hospital and we spent more time joking around with the doctor ahead of time than anything. This is pretty much her full time job; there was a lineup of boys waiting in the room after we got out. It was less dramatic than having their vaccinations.

I went to a friends' sons' bris a few years ago and the mom absolutely couldn't watch the procedure at all, but after seeing what it entailed it made me less worried about getting my own sons circumcised. Now I feel kind of cold hearted remembering that though.. maybe I lack empathy :lol:

 

Most of the OBs I work with will not let the parents watch because so many pass out. If they really want to they can but they must be seated the whole time. Most don't want to watch at my work, though. And, at my work, it is always an OB who does it.

 

we weren't given the option of watching...I'm surprised at those of you who were...the pediatric hospitalist that we had did come in and thoroughly explain the procedure...shot of local anesthesia in each side of his groin as well as numbing cream on his penis and a drop of Tylenol afterward...don't know if they used sucrose or not

 

Like I said before, mine were done on the kitchen table. The only crying was when they were swabbed with the alcohol. Both were given a local anesthesia in their scrotum, and a bit of Tylenol after. They never cried except that brief moment when exposed and swabbed. The service took longer than the procedure, it probably took 10 min. for him to complete both boys. Many of my friends were surprised to see how quick and clean it was, and that the babies weren't even bothered by it.

 

That would be me. The thought of it makes me cringe, I couldn't even imagine watching it. :faint:

 

Our hospital would have let me watch if I had been there. I went down to visit them and left for a few hours to see my Dr. for my post-op. While I was gone they did the circ. When I got back, they said, "Oh, you just missed the circumcision. We tried to get you, but you didn't answer your cell." My phone was dead. They had just finished Connor when I walked in and he was calmly sucking on a pacifier as was Aaron. They didn't seem to be in any distress at all. I can't say they weren't, but they certainly didn't seem to be.

 

I had my boys with 2 different doctors in 2 different hospitals and I was there for both circs. I held their hand and watched the whole thing. (dh wouldn't watch either ) They both reacted similarly. They screamed more about being restrained then they did about the circ. My ds #2 actually broke his restraints before the circ was started so I held him down softly and he calmed right down. He literally gave a startled cry at the circ cut them nothing after that. Never acted sore or uncomfortable after the procedure was done. They encouraged me to nurse right after the procedure (to provide comfort) which I did.

ETA: They reacted a whole lot more to the vaccinations they had and the blood being taken from the heel then they did from the circ. I can't give a quantitative amount of how much pain was involved but comparatively speaking, I can say absoluelty that the pain from a circ was less than those of vaccines.

 

Is this for real??

Do you realize why this is?

It's because this poor baby cannot talk!?

For crying out loud (literally!) And the content of your post just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. What would change just based on AGE of the patient?

That's what makes it even worse!


It's the same surgery, on the same penis! The baby just can't speak!

I find it appauling that you would say this.

 

It's not the same surgery at all. As I posted above, my son had it at three days and then at ten months. There is no comparison at all. And he couldn't talk either time. Neither procedure was horrible, but the one at ten months was ten times worse in terms of length, need for general anesthesia, and look of penis and recovery time. Babies an their penises are three times larger by a year. Perhaps before accusing someone else of being ignorant of the facts, you should research them yourself.

 

Ya. Well, perhaps you should be realistic and just THINK about it. It's still a penis and size is relative to your BODY! Come on USE YOUR HEAD! It's all the same! Get real! Justify it all you want.

 

Oh and in case you think I'm just being rude, I'm not. I had my boys circumcised. I'm just saying. Don't deny the FACTS. Don't PRETEND that they don't notice they're having their penises LOBBED off.

 

The facts are that I saw my son at 3 days and I saw him at ten months. I saw the recovery time. I saw his penis. I know the difference between a five minute procedure and a 45 minute surgery. I know that one required local anesthetic and one required general anesthesia. And I know that in neither case was his penis lobbed off. I'm not pretending anything because I KNOW the facts. Honestly, I'm sorry you regret your decision, but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Whether or not you choose to circumcise, there is simply no denying the medical fact that it is a more difficult, dangerous, complicated surgery the older a child gets. That is the FACT.

 

A lot of people already responded in this thread about how little pain their sons seemed to experience at birth. I am sorry that you feel that it was traumatic for your sons, but I didn't have the same experience and I would do it all over again. I don't think it's because my baby can't talk either.. they would scream if they're in pain, but they didn't. So my head tells me that they weren't in pain.

 

The reason it took longer is due to the anesthetic. There is no other reason. You are correct, though, I ABSOLUTELY, regret my decision to circ them. Challenge me in what I know and what I do not know. I welcome it!

 

Okay. Fair enough. But does your head REALLY tell you that they were NOT in pain? Could you really go through that and NOT experience pain?

 

Oh, but they can sure scream to let you know when they are unhappy, in pain, etc. So....minimal screaming to me says the pain is not that bad.

 

I'm sure you know much more than the pediatric urologist from one of the best children's hospitals in the country whom I questioned extensively regarding my son's second procedure and who spent 30 minutes actually operating on my son. After all, he went to medical school, and your qualifications are...what exactly? You've deduced this by the power of your logical reasoning ability? You read the opinions of other uninformed women on the Internet? I don't know how I could think to challenge those credentials! (By the way, that's sarcasm. I'm unclear how far the powers of your brilliant mind extend. (Also sarcasm.))

 

You do understand there are different levels of pain? At the low end would be a paper cut. At the high end would be childbirth or breaking a femur or...this conversation.

 

This is all okay with me. I don't care. ALL water under the bridge. Don't get me wrong. I'm TOTALLy the tree hugging hippy that everyone loves to hate. The ONLY reason I'm here is because this makes NO sense. Why would the newborn feel no pain? Do they posess some superpowers we do not?
And THAT, my friends, IS fact. Fight ME all you want.

I have no dog in this fight. LIterally.

Anyway.
As I stated before. I don't care. Just be honest with yourself going into it.

 

Come on! Have you dealt w/ me before? aRe we just meeting now? Nice to meet ya!

 

No one said there was no pain for newborns. They said there was substantially more pain and difficulty later. YOU took issue with that and said there was NO difference at all in the procedure between birth and older ages. Then you conceded that there was a difference in the anesthesia. If you want to back off of that, by all means. I think that would be a wise decision. Judging others when one is ignorant of facts is never a good idea.

 

I have no idea. Somehow we are "friends" and I don't know how that happened, so I'm thinking you changed your screen name at some point. Am I supposed to know who you are?

 

I know they were in pain for the first few minutes. They screamed. Then they stopped and they didn't scream or fuss again. So that tells me they weren't in pain after that. It wasn't a big deal. There was virtually no recovery time other than keeping it clean and dry for the following few days. I am comfortable with my decision to circumcise based on how little trauma it was.. and I am being honest with myself about how much pain it caused them. So what's the problem?

 

I am sure the level of pain/discomfort the baby feels varies from baby to baby just like two adults having the same operation may have differing degrees of pain. I know when Owen was circumcised, for two days after he screamed every time he peed. Obviously it hurt him & based on that & other info I decided not to circ Luke. But, I don't judge other people for their decisions that are based on their own beliefs & experiences. Each parent has to evaluate the situation for themselves & make a choice and it certainly isn't for me to decide whether their decisions are right or wrong. I don't necessarily regret Owen's circumcision any more than I regret not circumcising Luke, I figure I have to make a decision, own it, move on & let others do the same.

 

Wow Meredith, no need to scream and get so worked up. It's a discussion.

One doesn't need to talk in order to communicate. SO does a mom not know their child's needs until they are verbal? Screaming and body language in exhibiting pain is quite clear.

Exactly.

I can only speak for my boys (as no one else can speak for my boys as only the doc, nurse and I were there and know the truth). I also never said they didn't feel a thing. Just that the pain they felt wasn't as much as the pain they felt when they were vaccinated. They screamed and fussed for a longer time with the shots than the circ.

 

Wrong or right, I equate it to the difference between my 5 year old son having hernia surgery and my 38 year old brother-in-law having hernia surgery at the same time. Kids have an amazing healing capacity. My son had hernia surgery at five and by the next day was feeling well enough to climb the stairs and walk unaided. My BIL had surgery at the same time for the same type of hernia and it was two weeks before he could climb the stairs and walk comfortably after the same surgery. Also, as Alison just pointed out, babies have a means of communication which we all know very well:crying. None of my three sons seemed to cry after the initial circumcision nor were bothered by it in any visible way. I'm sorry, but I just have no guilt or remorse over it because there was zero indication they were in distress.

 

I'm guessing she deduced this by the power of her maternal heart. We all know, any mother worth her salt is going to yell "Challenge me" based on an experience regarding her offspring, if it affects her hard enough. Let's cut her some slack shall we? The lady obviously feels strongly about this, based on her experience, or what she feels her child went through... And, she's reacting more than she's debating IMO. No need to pass her off as some uninformed woman on the internet, or point out how you're being sarcastic, as if she was too ignorant to understand. That's pretty rude Rachael. You were lucky enough to have a good doctor, she was probably not, and you were "smart" enough to ask the right questions, while she probably did not. Yay you, poor her? I don't get it.