Help! Sleep issues etc.......

Hi Twin Mommies,

I need help or at least hope. Sorry but this is going to be long, long, long. I am frustrated with all the twin books, sleep books etc. The twin books keep talking about a schedule, huh? And the sleep books are not aimed at twins and offer nebulous information.

Here is the situation. My girls are three and a half months and both of them are very fussy. They were born at 37.5 weeks and weighed 4 and a half and 5 and a half pounds, they are now 11ish pounds. We are having sleeping issues, napping issues, frequent feedings and they need constant entertainment. I have been putting off writing this “cry for help” because I have my mother staying with me from out of state (she has agreed to stay for seven months) and my husband is very helpful on weekends and evenings. Therefore I feel like I should have things under control; I can’t believe some poor mothers are trying to do this without support!

My girls will only fall asleep in someone’s arms after at least ten minutes of swaying with white noise; this usually means hanging out in the dark in the bathroom with the fan on for extended periods, yay. They are also only sleeping in bouncers and cry if placed in their crib. When they were born they were little, so we used stuffed inserts in their car seats and bouncers to make them feel more secure. Now they won’t sleep in the bouncers without the inserts even though they can barely fit in them any more; they’re all smooched down with their legs hanging out, flailing at times. I have considered cutting holes in the inserts to slowly remove the stuffing in hopes that I will eventually wean them off them; is this crazy?

I have been reading “Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child”, and have been trying to get them down for naps as soon as they are showing signs of sleepiness. Problem is they are constantly rubbing their eyes and whining all morning long and when I finally get one down for a nap she usually only sleeps for about a half an hour. So my mother and I usually spend about six hours every morning rocking them to sleep with little reward. Occasionally they will take a three hour nap (then I am always concerned they have succumbed to SIDS because of their stuffed inserts).

I am nursing them and they are still eating at least every two hours during the day. They usually go down to sleep at sometime between 6 and 8 and stay down till sometime between 5 and 7. During this period they still wake about 3 times each at night to nurse. I am sleeping in the room with them so I can get to them before they become too wakeful. I try to dream feed them at night. If they wake up, I am screwed because they take forever to get back down again. I used to tandem feed them, but now they flail and get angry if they have to share the breast and wake each other up. Therefore I have not had more than five hours of consecutive sleep in the last three and a half months and I think that only occurred on two or three occasions. I am afraid to pump and let others take over the night feeds because: a) I am afraid my supply will drop, and b) I’m afraid who ever feeds they will not be able to get a bottle to them fast enough, which most likely will lead to both being wide awake in the night, screaming their heads off, in which case I would have to get up and help anyhow.

I have tried eliminating foods from my diet and treated them for reflux to help with fussing. Their reflux appears to have resolved. I have also been using the five S’s a la “Happiest Baby on the Block” but stopped swaddling as it only seems to make them madder. I have been unable to establish a successful bedtime routine as they cry with bathing and reading. The only routine I have at this point is playing soft classical music when I put them down to sleep with white noise machines.

Sorry for the length. Anyhow, here are my questions:

• How do I get them into their cribs??? I know a lot of people have said not to worry about it, but I am because they are gaining enough core strength to throw themselves from their swings and I can’t strap them into their bouncers without waking them up. Please share any bouncer to crib success stories and any helpful hints.

• When is it too early to “Cry it out/ Ferberize”, and how do you accomplish this with two????
• When will they start nursing less frequently, or at least dropping night feeds? Any ideas on how to accomplish this, success stories would be helpful.

• When will they be less fussy in the day time and require less entertainment?

I am desperate and will try anything at this point. Any advice would be helpful! I am scared to be alone with my girls and terrified about my mother leaving in 3 and ½ months.

Thanks in advance! I don’t know what I would do without this forum.

Anneelizz

 

First, BIG, HUGE, monstrous :hug: 's!! Sleep deprivation has always been the worst for me and I'm so sorry it's been so hard for you!! I'm glad you have your mom there to help, to relieve you a little.

Mine didn't sleep through the night until 7.5 months, and they were both each waking 3 times or more a night similar to yours. The only break I had was going to work during the day to try to get away from it all. I remember those days, and they were all about survival!! You can do it!!

It was very difficult for us to get our oldest DS to sleep in the crib. He was very spoiled to sleeping on someone's chest in the beginning. Happiest Baby on the Block helped us alot with the 5 S's, but I know you said you've already tried them!

Some thoughts (I'll try to address your questions as best I can - take them for what they are worth, you may have already tried them, or can tell they won't work for your LOs):

• How do I get them into their cribs??? This came down to consistency for us. If you can gear yourself up for it - try to get at least a day or two in a row of some decent sleep (even if it's during the day, while your mom takes a shift). Then, I had the mindset that my will was stronger than theirs!! :aggressive: They were not going to win (kind of competitive, but I knew it'd be best for everyone in the long-run)!! So, I'd let them get sleepy, then immediately put them in bed. If they fussed, I'd SHHH them until they calmed down, then put them back. Over and over again. Eventually, they gave up and slept. It only took us a few days of this, and they got used to the cribs.

When is it too early to “Cry it out/ Ferberize”???? We didn't do CIO until they were older than 6 months. I don't think that's a hard and fast rule and you can do what makes sense for you, but I still felt like they were eating when they nursed at night, and I didn't know how I'd tell if they weren't hungry. With my older DS, I actually nursed him at night until he was over 9 months - still seemed like he needed that nighttime nursing, probably for comfort more than for nutrition. and how do you accomplish this with two???? When we did CIO with both, sometimes they both cried, but more often than not, they "tag-teamed" - one would cry and the other would start when that one let up. Now, they rarely wake one another up. With the twins, we only had to do CIO for a couple of days. With my oldest, it took much longer than that. I think it was more personality than age, but I don't know.

When will they start nursing less frequently, or at least dropping night feeds? Sounds like you've read lots of books, so you know what I know, but I kind of let them do this on their own. I did try to "cluster-feed" in the evenings, trying to get as much in them as they'd take (didn't worry about overfeeding since I was nursing), but I did have to be careful because DD spit up alot. Over time, I could tell the nursing sessions were more about comfort - they didn't latch on for very long, and they'd fall asleep soon after they latched. Also, if I missed a session, I didn't feel it as much, so I assumed my night supply had dwindled, and they weren't getting much. So the only action I took was cluster-feeding. As I said earlier, I didn't think my older DS was done with night feeds until after 9 months (but I think most experts will tell you they are okay after like 3 months or 12 pounds or something).

When will they be less fussy in the day time and require less entertainment? This I learned from my day help with the twins. I always held my DS when he was fussy. She kept "stations" around the house, and moved the twins as necessary when they got fussy. She could usually quiet them by putting them in a new "station". Play mat, pack n play with toys, swing, bouncer, exersaucer (when they can hold their heads), music, closer to each other, farther from each other, etc. Again, she was persistent - she didn't just give up and hold them - she knew I couldn't hold them all the time, so she spent the time teaching them in the beginning so I was freer later. She would also let them “fuss” a little – not cry, but whine, complain, a little, and try to put them on their side, or move them a little (without picking them up) to see if that would satisfy them. She wouldn’t let them get full-on mad, though; that seemed to hurt more than help!!

Good luck!! Lots of prayers and good wishes go to you!! You can get through it!! I know it’s so hard, but you also know it’s temporary, and remember: Every day, they get another day older!! That helped me so much!!

 

I think i have some good thoughts for you... but I will write more when i get home from work tonight. Just wanted to initially say that what is happening now is not forever. Even if we didn't try so hard to train our LOs - they change and mature anyway! You will see unbelievable changes in them! I learned that after a few months. So, hang in there. But i'll write more later... and I'm sure plenty of others will have great suggestions and thoughts.

 

I'm going to be generic, as my crew is awake, and Annabella is constantly on the go!

1.) My boys slept in their carseats until they were four months old. We put them in their cribs cold turkey when they were four months old. They slept in their swings swaddled, until six months old. I say-if they are sleeping, and sleeping well-let them. Sleep is what is important. Where-you can work on later. And we moved them cold turkey both times and all was fine. I was beyond nervous doing it, but it all worked out. Can you strap them in their swings? What about swaddling? I didn't see that mentioned. Can you swaddle them? Have you tried it? I LOVED the swaddle! Annabella was not a swaddler, however.

We rocked the boys to sleep, so slowly we started to put them down more awake. If that meant I stood over their crib and shhhh, or rubbed their back until they were sleepy-then that's what I did. They are almost three now. I don't need to do that anymore-and only did it for a few days! It's not forever! :hug:

2.) CIO-We waited until they were six months old. I noticed in their patterns of waking that they were not eating the same amount consistently. 2 ounces here, 3 ounces there, half an ounce here. They were playing, and playing me. They were getting plenty of food during the day. It was a decision dh and I came to-and at six months we did it(they don't recommend doing it sooner). And we did it with both boys in the room at the same time. I never took one out, etc. They will still sleep through the others cries, even now at almost 3.

3.) Dropping feeds-They will let you know! I tell you-those babies are smart! If you could, try to feed them more during the day, in hopes of them going longer at night. I know with Annabella if she ate more during the day, she would sleep a bit longer at night. So maybe try a pp suggestion and cluster feed?

4.)"PlayTime"-I agree with a pp-your house almost becomes a circuit training room! :laughing: We had a jumperoo, exersaucer, floor mats for tummy time, etc to help keep them "entertained." Granted, that wasn't until they were a bit older. They are still little lumps who can't do much! If they were fussy, I would pick them up and dance with them to the radio, or sing to them, or bounce them on my knee. They are not too little to be read to. Take out some books-black and white ones are good too-and just look at the pictures and talk to them. Point out the pumpkins, or the apples, or the various colors, or shapes, or animals. Go for walks-even if it's the mall, or the grocery store, or up and down the street. It gets you out of the house, as well as them-and it's new scenery. Heck-even go for a car ride and get a coffee through a drive thru-or whatever it is you like to drink!

I have vivid memories of sitting on the couch and rocking two fussy babies, and crying right along with them. I'd watch the clock waiting for each passing second for dh to come home. Or I'd eagerly await the arrival of some form of help-even if it was for 5 minutes. After almost three years-I can honestly tell you it gets better! :laughing: Each age/stage has it's own challenges. But, like most things, you overcome them. In the thick of it, you don't think you will ever survive, but somehow we all manage to.

You mention they are fussy-are there any issues with relux or gas? That would be something I would also look into if that was a possibility. Big, big :hug: to you! You are not alone! Oh-and as for schedules, you can start paying attention to their cues now and work towards one. I didn't worry about a schedule until six months where there sleeping was more typical. I worked around them sttn first, and everything else fell into place. Good luck mama! You will get through this!!

 

Others have given you good advice, so I won't repeat what most of what they have already said (although I am not a CIO person, so I wouldn't have suggested that at any age).

As far as the cribs, have you tried using a bassinet? I'm guessing they feel insecure in the crib because it is so big - maybe if you put them in a bassinet first, THEN in the crib, it wouldn't be such a big change? We did bassinet, one crib with divider, then separate cribs. Ideally if you could borrow a bassinet from someone and try it for a few days, that might help. I have a friend whose son slept in his swing until he was 6 months old because that is the ONLY way he would sleep. It was a battle switching him to the crib at that point, so I would try to do it now if you can.

I'm also wondering how you swaddle. Are you using a blanket, or one of the swaddlers? There are things that just wrap their arms and leave their legs free. I can't remember what they are called, but maybe that would help, too, if they have their legs free?

 

Hugs. It's so tough sometimes, but it DOES get better, I promise. I really felt like 4 months was a turning point for us. That was when they started playing with toys. I'll read through the other replies and see if I have anything else to add.

 

BIG HUG! I know exactly where you are coming from. I also beat myself up about breastfeeding. It sounds like you and I share many of my same fears. My story is that one night I was so exhausted I decided to let the girls be bottle fed by someone else. And I let them use formula because I was too tired to pump and had no fresh. At the time, I was convinved my supply would drop and that would be the end. HOWEVER, after my sleep, I woke up refreshed and was FILLED with milk. I have given a bottle once per day every day since (an EMB, formula blend) and haven't looked back - it is their last bottle of the day and my girls STTN. I can't say when the right time is to try this, but I wish someone else had told me it would be OK if I did this. I might have tried sooner. Hopefully, when you're ready to try letting someone else take over, this post is encouragement.

CRIB SLEEP: As for your post about sleep, I also worry that I am not doing enough to help my girls develop healthy sleep habits. I have finally transitioned my girls to the crib, but it took A LOT OF EFFORT and there was no recipe to follow to get them there - it was total trial and error. I began by trying to get them in the crib for just one nap per day. It took a few days before they actually had one crib nap, and we tried a ton of variations to get them there (white noise, dark room, swaddle, rocking). There were many days where my efforts to get them to nap took longer than their nap. On many of those days, I gave up and let them sleep elsewhere, figuring that the act of sleeping was more important than where they slept. However, one day, they napped in their crib. Then, I tried to do it two naps in a row, and so forth. Today (5 months on Sunday) a majority of their naps are in their cribs. We still have naps where they just don't get into the crib. But we try again the next time.

I still worry that I am using too many "props." I can't put them in the crib "drowsy, but awake" without them waking up - they have to be asleep. And then, they take 30 minute catnaps! I have had scores of people tell me (1) they have to learn to sleep without my intervention, (2) that will probably take some crying, and (3) I should leave them in their crib for a set nap-time een if they don't sleep. However, I am not ready to try any of these yet. I think what I am doing is right so I will continue on, making our baby steps.

So, I suppose the moral of my post is keep up the good work doing what you are doing, but don't be afraid to try new things either. You will know when the time is right for you to make a change. And if the change doesn't work after a few tries or you see negative side effects, you can always switch back. Nothing you do is irreversable.

 

I'm just wondering - if they are fussy and still eating every 2 hours - I wonder if they are hungry? Gosh, maybe the BM is not filling enough and they don't feel satisfied. Just a thought. Maybe if you BF and then supplement with some Formula they will feel more full and satisfied and not be as fussy. And, maybe they'll even sleep better. When I tried to soley BF, my boys didn't sleep as well. When I started to supplement, they slept a bit better. Granted, sleeping still wasn't that great at that age - it wasn't until about 6 months that their sleeping got better. But as far as being fussy, when they were satisfied from eating, they weren't fussy at all.

 

Thank you for taking time to read my post and give support and advise. It is so nice to know you are not alone! Your responces made me cry!

Elise actually fell asleep on the play mat all splayed out yesterday and I managed to get two successful naps out of Maya in the crib using Momof4angels method. I also added two new "entertainment stations" a la craigslist which I think is helping.

Going to let my mother take over a feed today so I can get out for a walk with friends.

Just knowing you all pulled through okay helps! Thank you!

 

You did get some wonderful and very helpful replies! I was where you are a couple of months ago. I was so sleep deprived I literally couldn't function. Just wanted to give my two cents worth because it did work for us. Ours were born at 36.3 weeks and when they were just under their 4 month birthday we had to do something because they were sleeping swaddled in swings or carseats only and starting to flip themselves out. They were also using pacifiers that were dropping out of their mouths so many times per night that we were getting no more than an hour or two of consecutive hours of sleep each night. We did bottle feed with bm and formula, though, so I think that's where we differ. My girls were also busting out of their sleep sacks. We did CIO just before their 4 month birthday.We seriously had no other choice.. we tried every other method available but I was starting to really feel like I couldn't be a good mother anymore if I didn't get any more sleep! It took about 3 nights and we did check them quite a bit. It was incredibly hard and we did it for both naps and nighttime sleep to be consistent. Oh and we did put them in seperate rooms until they got the hang of it.. it did work and we are doing really well now! Hugs! I know how hard it can be!

 

Bless your heart! Just wanted to say I know how you feel and I feel like with all three of our lo's 4 months was the turning point. Naps became regular and longer, I got serious about putting them in their cribs for every nap, bedtime routine was like clock work (still is ) and I learned what worked and what didn't. It really is trial and error during those first few months so don't get too discouraged. It definitely gets better as they get older and I think bf babies are a little trickier. For months it would take me HOURS to get my DD to sleep at night and I was exhausted - I would sometimes have to sit back there and just let her suckle because that was the only way she could go to sleep. I was her paci no doubt. But now at 7 months old she sleep 6:30 - 5:30 or 6:00. We did CIO at 6 months b/c at 19 lbs, she was waking to nurse out of habit rather than necessity every morning at 3:00. It took two nights and she cried for maybe 20 minutes each night. Hang in there and don't give up!

 

I just wanted to tell you that you are doing great and to hang in there. It does get better! 3 1/2 months was really hard for us and although we still have problems, it's easier to deal with. I just wanted to add a few things to the great advice you have already received.

First of all, I had the same exact problem with them sleeping in the bouncy chairs. They wouldn't sleep anywhere else, but they were able to wiggle out of it and I couldn't strap them in because of them being swaddled. What I finally ended up doing was buying 2 cheap sleep positioners from walmart and placing one in the elevated pnp and one in the elevated crib(my girls cannot sleep in the same bed together and sleep in completely separate rooms during naps). Then I took the insert out of the bouncy chair(our bouncy chairs came with inserts in them) and placed it in the sleep positioner so that it didn't fall flat in the crib and it kind of surrounded them because they like that sensation of being cuddled. Then I swaddled them up and placed them in the insert. It was the only way they would sleep in the crib and they still sleep just like that. I don't know if we'll ever get them in the crib without the positioner and insert. If I didn't explain it well enough and you want to see what I'm talking about, I can take a pic tomorrow and post it.

I can't really help with the feeding issues because I was not able to bf. I do think that you might want to consider what a pp said about supplementing with formula, even if it's just once in the evening to try and get a longer stretch of sleep at night.

I have only had to CIO a couple of times and the first time was at about 4 months. It doesn't take very many times for them to figure out what you want, but it is extremely difficult to listen to them cry for 10 mins(the longest I could stand to let them go). There were quite a few times I had to stand by the crib and pat until they fell asleep, like a pp said. I never put them down fully asleep. I always try to put them down very drowsy but still awake.

Also, you said something about having to be in the bathroom for the dark and white noise. I would like to suggest what I do, it may work better for you than the bathroom . I bought a cheap humidifier and I run that in the their room. It is pretty loud and works great for white noise. If you already have a humid house, a floor fan running on high works too. I bought wooden blinds for their room, which makes it very dark. We have a cheap rocking chair in there, so I swaddle one up and rock her in there until they are drowsy and them lay her down and pat. Then repeat for DD2. It could work for you. It took some time to get into this routine, but now they know that once they are swaddled, it is sleep time. They know what is coming, so it eliminates some of the fussing and crying.

As far as a schedule, I wouldn't worry about that as much as a routine. The girls have started getting on a schedule just recently, but what really helped us was a routine. We do the exact same thing every time when it comes to sleeping and eating. For sleep, it's always swaddle, binky, rock and sleep. Bedtime is always bath, lotion, bottle, cereal, diaper change, swaddle, rock then sleep. I really think that when they have a routine and know exactly what is coming next, it creates a sense of security for them and helps with fussiness. That is my experience anyway.

So, anyway, that's what we do, and maybe some of it will help you. But I've been there and I know how hard it is. Unfortunately, I was one of those moms who had to do it by herself and, honestly, the routine is what helped the most. It makes it really hard to go anywhere, but it helps all of us to know what is going to happen. BIG :hug: . Hang in there and feel free to PM me if you ever need someone to talk to. This forum has helped me out so many times, so I know how nice it is just to get feedback, even if it doesn't work for you !

 

I've been here with my twins, and all of the sudden my wonderful singleton has fallen off the sleep wagon. I think I could have even written a few of those paragraphs. Here are a few random thoughts followed by my responses to your questions.

How long are they staying up between naps? I think at that age they shouldn't be up for more than 1.5-2 hours. They may be getting overtired. Also developmental milestones can disrupt sleep. Have they started rolling over, teething, moving around more? Are they having a 3 month growth spurt, which is fairly common. All three of mine had growth spurts at 3 months, and it killed sleep. Plus, my singleton just started rolling over, and that has been awful. Also don't believe anybody who tells you formula or rice cereal or solids will make them STTN, that just isn't true, as many of us can attest to.

Ok so now for the questions.

• How do I get them into their cribs??? I know a lot of people have said not to worry about it, but I am because they are gaining enough core strength to throw themselves from their swings and I can’t strap them into their bouncers without waking them up. Please share any bouncer to crib success stories and any helpful hints.
I think the others had a good idea. I would try not picking them up when they start fussing after you put them down, maybe pat them or rub their bellies and shush them, to see if that calms them down.

• When is it too early to “Cry it out/ Ferberize”, and how do you accomplish this with two????
Depends on what you mean. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting them fuss around or cry for 5-10 minutes. I finally broke down and did that with my singleton today. She's decided I should nurse her back to sleep when she can't roll back over in her crib, and she keeps falling sleep while nursing and waking as soon as she hits the mattress. Now would I let her cry for a half hour, no, not until she's older, and I definitely would not let her cry to try to get her to sleep 11-12 hours straight at night. most babies that age need night calories.
• When will they start nursing less frequently, or at least dropping night feeds? Any ideas on how to accomplish this, success stories would be helpful.
Most BF babies are going to nurse every two hours during the day for the better part of the first year. What happens is that they start to drop night feeds. I think the idea of clusterfeeding to tank them up is a good thing to try, and it may help you get an hour or two more out of them. If I were in your shoes the first thing I would work on is napping, and then I'd worry about dropping feeds because I bet at this point, it's getting hard to distinguish between a hunger cry and a fussy fusser cry. I've soooo been there on that one. The sleep deprivation starts to impair your judgment, and suddenly it's hard to tell. You could try soothing them back to sleep, but not nursing them, and see what happens.
• When will they be less fussy in the day time and require less entertainment?
When they are 18 and leave your house I'm teasing, but I agree with others, try to get some kind of toy rotation going on. they are almost older enough for the exersaucer depending on their gross motor development.

And finally, I wouldn't take any of my advice too seriously, my twins were awful at STTN. It will get better soon; you're doing great. :grouphug:

 

I thought I'd share my $.02 but also ask a question related to the sleep issue...

...Things didn't start getting "better" for me until my girls were about 4 months old. Someone mentioned that's when they start playing with their toys. It's true! They start noticing the things overhead & reaching for them. Once they got real good with holding the heads up (probably closer to 5 months for that, really) - the excersaucers were and still are great for them (they will be 7 months next week). They started rolling over and so things on the ground were fair game to play with too. I remember my sister-in-law saying how things got easier at 8 weeks for her singleton child. For us, it was twice as long, but we have 2 babies, so maybe that's about right!

Getting them into their cribs was hard. Very hard. I was determined to get them in there before I went back to work (I stayed home 4 months). Before then, they were in their car seats and loved it... SO we started by putting them in the cribs for naps - or at least starting out there. Then we did it at night. The first night, I slept in the room too, I wanted them to know I was there (although "slept" is the wrong word, I didn't sleep a wink, darn air mattress plus them crying a lot, I didn't sleep a wink). We just kept doing it. They started out there every night. For the first month or so, we kept the car seats nearby and if they woke up crying in the middle of the night (for any length of time) we'd move them into the room with us and into the car seats. I remember one night walking the hall with S crying, and me crying, as my husband stood there and I declared, "She is NEVER going to sleep in her crib! Never!" Of course, they did eventually.

But having said that, they don't sleep through the night. They wake up a lot. 4 - 6 times EACH, G usually prior to 1am, S usually after 1am. They are addicted to their binkies, and if they stir and they don't have them in their mouths, they cry for them. My hubby and I probably got contributed to this - because we'd rush into the room and pop the binky back in if we heard them stirring. We were (and still are) worried they would wake the other twin. 9 times out of 10, they take the binky and roll back over and back to sleep. But this still means WE are up 10 times a night. We are tired.

So this comes to my question -- the binkies. I'm almost ready to Ferberize the girls, and I think taking the binkies away would probably be our answer here. BUT, I really like that the binkies can calm them down (especially when I'm not around, like at day care). So I'm torn. For those of you who have done a CCIO method (like Ferber) -- what did you do with the binkies? I really really need advice!!!