Breastfeeding is not just a personal choice

I'm personally fascinated with politics of breastfeeding and motherhood, and we started to touch on some of these issues in a few recent threads. This one and this one. There's also another thread in first year--these kinds of threads pop up periodically and usually end up being a hot mess.

But all of these threads and several past threads, in this forum and other forums, have me thinking that the rhetoric of breastfeeding as a "personal choice" does more to undermine breastfeeding than almost anything else. If we reduce it all to personal choice, we miss how our social structure affects our ability to breastfeed our children. I saw this link about cultural "booby traps" in one of the other threads, and I thought it was a good example of how we can move away from the rhetoric of personal choice.

I think this is especially important for all of the new moms on this site to think about. If you are struggling, it's not because you just don't have the will or you aren't following through with your "personal choices." It's because our social norms and social organizations are not set up to support breastfeeding. There's a lot of pro-breastfeeding lip service, but very little of the rhetoric actually works its way into out our families, or medical institutions, our work places, and our education system.

What do you think?

 

I am with you. I am very interested in all the politics of breastfeeding. I can see the argument from so many sides, which is part of what makes it so interesting to me. There are so many layers going on, so many complexities within the various dialogs. I think you are really on to something in discussing the rhetoric we use to discuss breastfeeding. I think that gets to the heart of the matter.

It makes me sad that so many discussions of breastfeeding wind up in a "hot mess," like you said. As someone who feels very strongly about the importance of breastfeeding but has also struggled immensely (my kids are both FF and BF), I am always trying to think of ways to be an advocate for breastfeeding while being open to all women's stories and perspectives.

I agree with this statement whole heartedly:

 

Ack I wish I had more time to respond; this topic just fires me up!! Of course, considering I was involved in one of the threads you linked, I bet you could have figured that out.

I have such mixed feelings about breastfeeding, and how to approach it with other women. Part of me feels "judgy"; I went through h*** trying to breastfeed and I feel slightly diminished when someone says they didn't even try. ardon: But then part of me says "who am I to judge"...

2 contradictions that spin my head:

1. "Breast is Best"; we need to encourage women to breastfeed, but still be respectful of other people. How do you promote breastfeeding without demeaning those who don't? I hesitate even to ask a new mother if she's nursing because I don't want to come across as judgemental, but I really want to encourage women to do it!

2. Breastfeeding advocates keep insisting that breastfeeding is evolutionary; babies and mothers are all fully capable because that's all we did for millions of years. But statistically speaking, you could have 16 children and if only 2 managed to breastfeed (and the rest starved to death), you would still be an evolutionary "success" (having passed on your genes). So it's possible that breastfeeding *isn't* a perfect system, and that many women could have issues with most of their offspring. Maybe an evolutionary biologist could ride a bus through my logic, but that's how I see it. ITA that our culture is *not* set up to support breastfeeding (especially the medical establishment), but I wonder how many women would still not breastfeed because of physical/emotional issues even if it was? ardon:

Hopefully I'll have time to respond more tomorrow. Thank you for an interesting thread Rachel!

 

Of course it's evolutionary, how could it be anything but? Before formula, the only options for feeding babies were BFing, hiring a wet nurse, or feeding them something really inappropriate (straight cow's milk eg). Since only a tiny minority could actually afford a wet nurse, let's consider just BFing and other animal milk.

About your example, yes, that mom passes on her genes. But that's not the whole picture. Think of it this way: three mothers each have 16 children. All other things being equal, the one (in your example) has serious BFing problems (for whatever reason - her body, her babies' ability to nurse, etc) and due to feeding issues only 2 children survive. The second mom has far fewer problems, and 13 children survive. The other mom has a normal BFing experience and 16 children survive. Sure, mom #1 has passed on some genes - but the gene pool is flooded with the genes of the moms/children who BF successfully. And suppose mom #1 had problems because she truly couldn't make enough milk, and suppose one or both of her surviving children was a girl - the girl might have inherited whatever problem kept her mom from nursing successfully, so she in turn has fewer babies survive, and again, the successful BF group dominates the gene pool.

If you compare BFing with giving some other animal milk, it's a similar story. Formula is balanced and adequate nutrition for babies (thank goodness!), but cow's milk (for example) is anything but. Fewer of the babies given cow's milk are going to survive and be healthy enough to pass on their genes, so again, evolution favors mother/baby pairs who are successful at BFing.

This is not to deny that some moms do everything right and still have problems. But that doesn't mean that the system as a whole doesn't work. And I think it's very easy for people to assume that BFing is really really hard by hearing these cases - because they are so much more vocal than the millions of women who just nurse their babies uneventfully. Nobody calls the police to tell them everything's fine.


Rachel, great thread. I hope to get back to it some more later. But honestly, you could fill a book with all the idiotic BFing advice moms here have heard from their pediatricians, of all people!

 

I agree with you Rachel. It makes me crazy how little education is provided for new BF mothers! I feel like so many people just really don't have a chance. Women aren't told that BF is hard at first! I think people expect the baby to just pop out and start nursing like a champ and if it doesn't, they quit. Like others have said, there are real problems that keep people from BF, but I think a little support would go a long way with so many new moms!

I have a dream of becoming a LC when all of my kids are grown up. I would love to help others BF!

 

I never thought I'd be a mom in 2009. Surprise, twins. Surprise, I'm now a lactivist. I try not to judge in a mean-spirited way (ok here's my judge-y weakness: please do not complain about the cost of formula if you do not BF. I just don't want to hear it, esp. if your kid needs a specialty formula... you chose to give them something that's not free). But mainly I want to help anybody I can get to their goal. I don't think 'giving up' is usually the goal.

 

I guess I fall in the middle of this. I was only able to BF my first for 4 months because of a low suppy and from that point on she got formula. I EBF my second from the time she was 2 months until she was over 2 years old. My twins get bottle and breast. I did try to EBF, because I loved nursing my 2nd daughter, but I have supply issues and couldn't make enough for two. To be honest, I don't enjoy nursing my twins, but it's important to me that I nurse them for at least a year. One of them is still going strong, but the other would much rather have a bottle and I struggle every day to keep him on the breast.

I think that as much as the idea that breast is best is spouted, there is very little support out their. With my first, I thought it would be easy and when I needed help it was a disaster. The nurses in the hospital all gave me conflicting advice, I had trouble finding an LC after I was released, and was placed on a feeding and pumping schedule that didn't let me sleep for more thatn 45 minutes at a time. When I had my second, I made sure that I had set up a whole support system in advance. During my pregnancy, I attended LLL and interviewed several LCs to find one that I was comfortable with and who specialized in low supply. That time I had a great support system in place so that when I struggled, I had several people to call for advice and support.

I don't think nursing, especially your first, is ever really easy. There are so many things that can go wrong - supply issues, engorgment, latch, foremilk/hindmilk imbalance, sore nipples even when nursing correctly, clogged ducts, mastitis, ect. At some point, nursing becomes easier and eventually it does become easy, but no one really tells you that.

One other thing that I don't think people recognize enough is that in today's society it is extremely difficult to EBF twins when you have older children. If my kids were all younger, then we could just stay home and I could nurse whenever I needed to or schedule outings around our nursing schedule. If I had one baby, then I could have toted him around to all of my daughters' school events, sports practices, and actvities and easily nursed him where ever we were. That's what I did with my second and what I had planned to do this time. With two, that's just not possible. I can't pop them in a sling and nurse on the sidelines. I couldn't tandem nurse in public and if I fed one then the other would yell. I used to have to nurse one while bottle feeding the other.

I am opening pro-breastfeeding but, after all is said and done, I don't think it's a simple as breastfeeding is superior so all women should do it. I think breastfeeding is a choice. It requires a huge commitment from the mother. You have to watch what you eat and drink, you can't be away from your baby for more than a few hours, you can't hand your baby off and get a full nights sleep, ect. I think as mothers we need to look at the big picture and decide what is best for our family.

 

i think our society sucks heiny at supporting BFing. i agree that we pay a lot of lip service to BFing being the best option but do very little as a whole to actual see that through.

all things being equal, BFing's easy. but the minute there's a hiccup (small or large) thrown in, things can very quickly spiral out of control - especially if a mom hasn't educated herself on BFing (and who does that? BFing is "natural" and "easy", what's there to know? you just put baby somewhere near your boob & voila!).

i think the thing that i struggle with is that i think that even if women were supported & educated about BFing, there would still be women who would choose not to even try BFing - that's where my judge comes out. i have trouble wrapping my head around women who don't even try - i have to put my mouth on pause & remember that everyone has a story, and everyone has a reason. it's hard sometimes though. :unknw:

 

This is exactly how I feel! My friends are probably 50/50 BF/FF and I have never said anything to any of my friends that did not try because I know they are still wonderful moms, but it's so hard for me to relate to that. To me, it was a given that I was going to try, and hopefully be successful. I never even considered not trying.

Everyone keeps saying, it's a choice, and I think I'm coming around to that. But, to me, it seems like the vaginal/C-section decision. At our hospital, they don't do C-sections unless there's a medical reason because it's *usually* hard recovery time for mom and there can be complications for baby. I had only c-sections with my kids, recommended by my doctors, but I originally had hoped to have them vaginally because it seemed like the "right" thing to do. In retrospect, I think both ways are perfectly fine, but maybe that's because I had c-sections, and I'd feel differently if I didn't.

All this rambling is trying to come around to a point: IMO, the c-section/vaginal decision is not "judged", or at least less "judged" than FFing. Of course, maybe that's because it's more up to the doctor than the mom. Could we get any help from the guidance surrounding that? Vaginal seems to me to be more recommended because it's nature's way. Same thing with BFing, but FFing and C-sections successfully accomplish the same goals. There is currently a campaign at our hospital to reduce the number of elective C-sections because of more potential complications, but I have never felt judged because I had C-sections, even though mine weren't completely medically necessary.

I want the same result for FFing women. Campaign for breastfeeding, but don't make anyone who chooses not to do it feel bad.

 

What would you all like to see changed in this society then? I have breastfed all of my children and while the initial onset of breastfeeding was difficult with all of them I have never had supply issues or infections. The worst thing that I have experienced is a clogged duct and that is so easily fixed.

No one has ever mentioned formula feeding to me. Not my Dr. Not my nurses. Not my Mom, husband, MIL...etc. No one said I couldn't do it and I was not going to fail. But those first months learning to breastfeed twins was hard but the resources to learn are there if you spend the time looking. Whenever I had a question I would look on-line or read a book or call the hospital. For the first few months after the twins were born I would walk to the hospital and they would weigh the babies for me to ease my mind that they were indeed gaining weight and that my milk was sufficient.

I got to hold my singletons right after my vbac's and nurse them first thing. With my last the nurses had to wait an hour before giving her a bath because she wouldn't quit nursing. But, from what I am gathering here, this experience is not the norm? What is the normal experience and what would you change about it?

Personally, in regards to feeling judgy, I think we all make choices that we think are the best for our kids. I breastfeed. I also co-sleep, stay at home and don't spank. All of these things, I believe are in the best interest of my children, but I know children who have been allowed to CIO or were spanked etc. and they are not scarred by that experience. I hold strongly to my beliefs that the choices I am making serve to give my children the best upbringing possible. I do tend to judge the mom's who say that their babies (newborn) will ONLY eat every 4-6 hours and then complain that these babies aren't gaining weight but refuse to nurse more often....it's a pet peeve of mine.

I have no judgement, however, towards those who FF. I don't see breastfeeding as a source of nutrition alone. I think that it fascilitates a healthy attachment because it forces skin to skin contact and necessitates that a mother is paying attention to her baby. But breastfeeding isn't the only way that attachments are made and I know of one woman, specifically, who does breastfeed and stays at home but is neglectful to her children because she, and her DH, are just not present with them. Breastfeeding itself isn't a cure for anything.

 

i think that's what i would like to see change - i don't think women should have to go looking. i think the resources should be offered. for example, wouldn't it be great if when baby isn't regaining birth weight as quickly as your doc would like, instead of suggesting supplementing, they referred you to a lactation consultant (or, at the very least, explained to mom the possible risk of lowered supply that comes with supplementing)? or that all mothers went home from the hospital with information on how to deal with engorgement, clogged ducts, and other common BFing issues instead of samples of formula? those are a couple i can think of off the top of my head.

from my personal experience, i wish that someone had told me that i could feed my babies BM via cup, syringe or SNS while they were in the NICU rather than just automatically giving them bottles. i didn't even know those were options until months after my girls were born. i struggled with months of toe-curling pain while nursing, cracked & bleeding nipples and it's at least partly (i believe) because of nipple confusion. i can't say 100% for sure that they would have nursed better had they not been given bottles, but i have a very strong suspicion that that's true. what bothers me is that no one even offered - not because i think they were keeping information from me, but because i don't think they knew themselves. and that's ridiculous!

at the end of the day, i'm frustrated that women are making uninformed decisions about BFing. and they're uninformed (at least in part) because the people who should be telling them this information don't know it themselves. that's one area where society needs to change.

 

With my first son (1991) the doctor kept asking if I'd like a pill to suppress my milk. He seemed unable to comprehend that I planned to BF. I had requested he not be given formula in the NICU (he was 9.5 lbs, but he had "wet lungs" from the c/s), which was ignored. However, DS1 would not drink formula (ever, even later mixed w/breastmilk). He would drink breastmilk from a bottle, so I pumped on my lunch break at work, in a toilet stall.

With DS2 (1994) the hospital where I delivered had midwives for normal births, so BFing was not unexpected. I had a huge episiotomy, and I did have one nurse snap "you're not just going to lie around and nurse that baby." DS2 would not touch any artificial nipple, so I EBF him and never pumped.

With the girls (2002) the nurses told me it is "impossible" to BF twins, and the LC told me there was no way I could do it without lots of extra pumping. She hooked me up to some giant pumping machine (I just used a tiny hand-held one with DS1), and all she got out was blood. Luckily, because I was already experienced at BF I just ignored the nurses & LC and took the girls home, where they nursed just fine. I never did pump with them. This did mean that I didn't use babysitters until they could drink from a cup, but that was not a problem for me.

My mom BFed, so I had support from that quarter. I think my ILs were kind of weirded out, but I wouldn't call them unsupportive. It was medical personnel who were the most likely to be discouraging, in my experience.

I am one of those people whose biggest problem was toughening up her nipples. I never had supply issues, my children all latched fine, I never got hassled in public or any of that. One of those unremarkable stories that no one hears about because they just aren't that interesting.

 

Could not agree more!!

 

" I am always trying to think of ways to be an advocate for breastfeeding while being open to all women's stories and perspectives. "

"There's a lot of pro-breastfeeding lip service, but very little of the rhetoric actually works its way into out our families, or medical institutions, our work places, and our education system."


These two quotes summarize exactly how I feel. It's so hard to promote/encourage breastfeeding but also not pressure and make people feel like you are judging. It's a fine line. I also really think that our society "preaches" breastfeeding is best but in reality doesn't support it consistently. For example, a friend of mine really wanted to breastfeed and after she had her baby she asked to see the LC at the hospital. She was told that the LC wasn't working on the weekends." So she asked her nurse for help because he was having trouble latching, etc.. The nurse brushed her off and said, "oh, babies are so sleepy the first few days and don't like to each much...don't worry about it"....and after having a vaginal delivery they sent her packing after 2 days and she felt totally like she had no clue of what she was doing. The first night she was home, the baby was screaming and screaming and she and her husband were getting so stressed out, so he ran out to CVS in the middle of the night for some formula and sure enough that did the trick. So she decided to pump from that point on and did for a month or 2 until a few days when the baby was crying and crying while she was hooked up to the pump and she was like, "This is crazy! This is actually holding me back from taking care of him, when he needs me" and so she switched to formula and I could certainly see why!!!......now I'm not saying formula is bad or anything like that, but I just felt bad because she had no support and things didn't have to go that way.

I think it would be a lot easier to learn how to breastfeed and to persevere during the tough times if we were surrounded by mothers, mother in laws, sisters, aunts and friends who had nursed....like almost learning through osmosis as a young girl being surrounded by women who nurse their children. I think it's hard because we tend to intellectualize things. I know I was like, "I'm going to research all there is to know about breastfeeding on the internet and take a breastfeeding class and then I'll be prepared!" And when the time comes and trouble arise you can read yourself into a frenzy on the internet and get more overwhelmed by the minute. (Not to minimize the support that sites like kellymom and this site offer) but do you know what I'm trying to say????? And then it seems like when either mom or baby starts struggling with certainly elements of nursing, some docs and nurses jump right in with the quick fixes of formula instead of really trouble-shooting and trying to help with the breastfeeding first. This is an instant society. We like quick fixes and resolution. But if women had that immediate support system of women who knew them and loved them to turn to it might help them to get over those hurdles....and then they could pass those experiences on to other women.... I don't know...sorry for my rambling. It's like the medical world and the natural world are colliding......even though on the surface the medical world promotes "breast is best" and lobs a huge helping of GUILT onto the plate of Moms who don't breastfeed for whatever reason.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

shannon

 

It's funny, just after I posted I read the "Booby Trap" article from the original post....and it touched on exactly what I was trying to say!!!! Maybe I should have read that first!

shannon

 

Alexis, I just wanted to share an anecdote with you. My MIL, who is Nigerian, exclusively breastfed 8 kids, including a set of twins. At the time she had three older kids, and I believe the oldest one was 4 or 5. Now from our point of view as Americans, it sounds remarkable, but if you really break it down, I can see how she was able to do it. In their culture, they believe that it takes a village to raise a child. My MIL always had nannies (several of whom were cousins or other relatives) or other members of the community to help her. Plus, the older kids were required to help with the younger kids. Moreover, in her era in her culture, all of the women breastfed (infant formula was only introduce in there around the time her kids were born, and it was only safe and available for the wealthy). There were no LCs or nurses or pediatricians to advise her, but she grew up seeing women feed their babies, and she grew up with women who had been there and could help her.

And if you think about the US in this era, we have very little help with child care. The extend family has virtually disappeared, and we have an entire 2-3 generations where breastfeeding was/is rare. Given those conditions, it's extremely difficult to breastfeed twins, especially with older children running around.

 

I personally think it's not the responsibility of breastfeeding advocates to make women who formula feed feel good. The responsibility of breastfeeding advocates is to encourage breastfeeding.

I actually think it's feminists and women's rights activist (some of whom may be lactivists), who need to take on the issues related to the "Mommy Wars" and it's stepchild the "Booby Wars." The whole mother guilt problem to me is a product of a patriarchal society that limits women's opportunities and narrowly defines our roles. And if you think about it both advocacy for breastfeeding and advocacy for formula feeding can perpetuate patriarchal ideology.

Part of the reason I think we shouldn't use the language of choice is because of this basic stat--somewhere in the neighborhood of 65-70% of women in the US initiate breastfeeding, but by 6 months the number of babies still being breastfed is very low. So a lot of women make the "choice to breastfeed," but it is very difficult to follow through with it for the long term because of those issues mentioned in the booby traps article. Now if we just keep reiterating "it's a choice" we make it sound like the choice between coffee or tea, but it so much more complicated than that. Does that mean that all of these women who stop are making "the choice" to give up breastfeeding. I suppose some are, but many of them are being compelled to stop by social forces greater than themselves--the paid labor demands, pressure from peers, friends, relatives, bad advice from medical professionals. Was it really the "choice" of many of these women to stop? Not really, it was something outside of them that forced them to stop or not be able to meet their goals.

 

See this is what those of us who are lactivists really need to lay out. Where and how should we learn about breastfeeding? I was thinking about this today, when my boys were watching Dora, and they were talking about what a baby eats from--the answer a bottle. I can't tell you how many times I see this--bottles, bottles everywhere. Now I have no problem with bottles thrown into the mix, but I almost never see pictures of Mom's feeding their babies at the breast. So even as almost 2 year olds, my kids are being taught (by mass media) that babies eat via bottles.

 

What a timely post for me. I have a casual friend who just had a baby this week. She didn't nurse her 1st two kids. She wanted to nurse #2, but the nurses were giving him formula and made things difficult for her. So she didn't. With this baby, she's been having some struggles. She called me from the hosp. with questions and I did my best to help. I told her to insist on a l/c visit while she was there. Well, the l/c FINALLY came just before she was ready to leave and told her that the baby was having latch problems. But gave her no solutions. Told her his latch would improve as he got older. :blink: Another nurse came in and told her her nipple was as big as the baby's head. (She's very large-breasted and very self-conscious.) I feel SO sorry for her. She's not the type of woman that really has a lot of determination so I'm afraid she's going to give up if the going gets tough. Fortunately she feels comfortable coming to me for help and I'm more than willing to do whatever I can. I think what she needs more than anything is HOPE.

The hospital she gave birth at is 10min from my house. I do not deal with them. Instead, I drive 1hr. to my dr's and hospital. My hospital is a HUGE b/f promoter. In fact they are one of 6 milk banks in the country. When the twins were born, they needed some NICU/Step-Down time for growing/feeding. I thought I was going to have to get a hotel room in order to stay close enough to b/f the babies. My NICU nurse made some calls and they set me up for a stay in the hospital. While available, I got to stay in a training room used for NICU grads and parents for the first night or two. It was nicer (and bigger) than a lot of hotel rooms. Once they needed the room, they set the babies and I up in a huge, private room w/a pull out couch. I got to use the employee locker room to shower a couple of times. I had regular visits from the l/c and full support of the NICU nurses (one of which was a former l/c...woohoo!!!). Oh, and I was never charged for the two weeks I resided in the hospital. All because I wanted to b/f my babies. THAT'S the way it should be.

I think ff'ing is easier for hospital staff and unfortunately, there a lot of hospitals that take the easy way out. It is unfortunate that they don't walk the walk. And yes, the formula is pretty much pushed at you. Even at my hospital, I got all of the Enfamil goodies...sometimes the formula companies remind me of the pharmaceudical industry.

I am eternally grateful to the people that helped me in those early days. I called and/or visited that poor l/c more times than I care to think, but she made it all work for me. Everyone says that new moms need to be educated about breastfeeding. I tend to believe that we need to educate the educators and health care personnel almost as much...and I'm not talking book knowledge - I'm talking real-life issues that affect us new moms.

 

My husband laughs when he hears any stories of how mothers can judge other mothers. Here in Australia "offering unsolicited advice to anyone is HIGHLY FROWNED UPON". Even the slightest comment and someone will put you in your place and remind you to mind your own business. As a new mom here I've really enjoyed NOT having anyone tell me how to be a mom. I was able to purely go on my own instincts. I was recently surprised when I returned home to N. America and quickly had several people freely offering up advice ("aren't you going to check on her ?" because my 8 month old slept on her tummy) or "she is crying ?!" sooooooo babies can cry.)

Here in Australia in the hospitals half of the nursing composition was "Midwives". There are lactation consultants continuously at the hospital to visit for a feed, people easily bf everywhere without a blink of an eye, there are wonderful wonderful wonderful parents rooms with even a number of small rooms with curtains for mothers who require privacy. I had a widwife come for 6 months because I had twins. They don't allow formula to be given out as freebies to new moms.

I have lived in many countries and areas and pros and cons with every country. Being able to parent without opinions has felt like a luxury for me. I miss having the connections with family & friends and celebrating milestones.... but less mommy guilt is wonderful !!

My singleton as well as the twins both at 5 months I couldn't keep up with supply. With my singleton (last one) it was better for me to go to formula -- I was eating so poorly it was hard to find the time to eat to get proper nutrition into me, let a lone another being. With the twins it might have been the same too.

SAY NO TO MOMMY GUILT !!

Heather

 

I live in Northern NJ and breastfeeding here really isn't all that common. Breastfeeding past 6 months is almost unheard of and I know so many people who had great nursing relationships who weaned at 6 months because they think that's enough. I'm not talking about people who wean because they have had enough, I'm talking about people who simply have no idea that there are benefits to nursing for atleast the first year. To be honest, I've never really understood why people think it's better to wean to formula, for me it just seems like it would make more sense to nurse for the first year and not have to deal with formula feeding. I wish I didn't have to tote bottles with me and I'm counting the days until I can toss all my bottles and supplemental formula.

My plan with all of my babies was to nurse them until they wanted to wean. My second daughter was a huge nurser and nursed like a newborn for the first 18 months. People where horrified. I can't tell you how many times people would tell me that I needed to cut her off. In general, I tend to just yes people who give me unsolicited parenting advice and then ignore them, but I couldn't in good conscience pretend that I thought my daughter needed to wean. I proudly and openly nursed her until she self-weaned just shy of 2 1/2 years. What was interesting is that there were quite a few woman who confided in me that they were still nursing their kids 1 or 2 times a day, but were hiding it. I just think that is so sad.

When I got pregnant with the twins, people immediately assumed I wouldn't nurse at all. When I said that I was planning to, the next comment was that I needed to make sure I cut them off at 6 months and didn't let it go on like I had with my daughter. I'm not really confrontational, but I went off on quite a few people. My boys are now 11 months and even the people who supported me are starting to drift away. Apparently I never got the memo that twins need to wean at 12 months.

In relation to the original question - I think the general public needs to be better educated about breastfeeding and the fact that there are benefits at any age. I think that people need to get the message that it's natural and that breastfeeding mothers should not be expected to remove themselves to a bathroom or private area, unless they choose to do so. I also think that there needs to be much better support systems across the board at hospitals. At the one's I delivered at, the LCs were good, but they were superbusy so it was sometimes hard to get them when you were feeding. Most of the nurses were bfing friendly, but their knowledge was often wrong. I was given a lot of bad advice with my first that I didn't know not to take. With my second and the twins, I was educated enough to ignore the nurses who insisted I was nursing too much and to make sure that every nurse who came into contact with my children knew that there would be hell to pay if they gave my babies so much as a drop of formula without my explicit permission.

 

I just attended a conference this past week. A couple of the highlights were:

1. Promote breastfeeding by assuming that's what everyone is going to do. After all, its the natural physiological way to feed a baby. How else would you do it?

2. Sure some women may not want to breastfeed or like to breastfeed but its a baby task just like changing diapers all day long - how many of us enjoy that? But we do it anyway.

3. Quit thinking of the breast as sexual. They are mammory glands to feed children. We are the only species that feeds our young anothers milk (formula is cows milk). Anytime a species (other than humans) feeds their young anothers milk it makes headlines, like when dogs nurse pigs etc.

4. Healthcare "professionals" are the ones who need to be educated. BF is not a big chapter they go over.

By breastfeeding yourself each of you are helping to support and promote something that is completely healthy and natural. You shouldnt worry about making a FF mom feel bad. Most moms who FF are pretty confident in their decision to do so.

 

What I struggle with the most in the booby wars is the fact that I lot of us who did BF really had a huge struggle to do so. When we get in these discussions, women are automatically on the defensive and feel as if they have to prove that they were unable to nurse instead of just deciding for whatever reason not to. It minimizes the struggle that so many BFing women face. The thing I want to see the most is to have medical professionals more educated on this subject. I think even so, it won't change a lot of the misinformation going around because a lot of health professionals are women and they will always bring their personal experience to the table. The nurses I battled with in the NICU would always use their personal experiences to try to talk me out of putting the babies to the breast. The hospital I delivered at was extremely breastmilk friendly, but not very breast-feeding friendly. It varied greatly depending on which neonatologist or nurse or even LC you were talking to. I think that even if a nurse was required to take breastfeeding classes as part of her training, she would still relate more strongly to whatever her personal choice was with feeding her children.

 

I have to add that in the recent discussion it was specifically mentioned that just the fact of breast being best causes problems of guilt in women. This is the part that I really don't understand. Research indicates zero tolerance for television under the age of three is best. My kids watch some TV every day and I'm totally ok with it. I understand that I am not making the ideal decision for every minute of my child's day for optimum development. I'm at peace with the fact that I'm not super mom. Why isn't it like that with breastmilk. The fact is that breastmilk is better for human babies than formula. Any amount of breastmilk is better than none. Why can't we just work from that? Why does it have to be that formula is "just as good". I completely can't understand the illogical desire to fight facts. And I'm saying this from the perspective of a mom who has a primarily breastfed child and a primarily formula fed child. However my primarily formula fed child was born headfirst and got a better start to life that way. My breast fed child was born breech and has some lifetime consequences from that. I don't fight the facts though, I just accept that I did my best and continue to provide the best I am able to provide every day. KWIM?

 

On Friday I copied the posts in this thread up until Joyful's post and took it home to read carefully and digest. I'm writing it off line and with copy and past it so I'm not using the quote function. I also read that article about booby traps. Thank you so much for that Rachel, I'll be passing that on, it's great.

I'm not sociologist, but I think I have a unique perspective on this issue, since I'm a middle class American woman, who grew up seeing babies with bottles just like all the rest of you. (I babysat a lot in my youth so fed many a baby that way myself) But I moved abroad and became a mother in a place where breastfeeding is still the norm, and the idea of a woman being asked to leave a store because she was breastfeeding is completely absurd. My experience is in Southern Mexico (the Southern is important, northern, and even central Mexico, is more similar to the US culturally, Southern Mexico is more similar to Central America and a lot more traditional.)
This is long so I decided to divide it into two posts. First some responses to what others have said.
“Personal Choice”
Yes, Rachel I think there is too much focus on this which is not ideal in two aspects. First, it's like we are talking about religion. Like someone choosing which church to attend or not to attend, or what kind of car to buy. When really we need to treat it more like a public health issue that affects the collective wellbeing of our community. And second, think about recycling, we could say the decision to recycle is a personal choice, but it's a choice more people are likely to make if there are mechanisms in place to make it easy. In cities with curb side pickup a lot more people recycle than in places where you have to take recyclables somewhere. If we want more people to breastfeed for longer, we need to equip our society to make that happen.

“my husband and myself were really the only ones that cared whether or not we breastfed.”---GandEMom
Yes, that's a great example of what happens with all this personal choice stuff. When a person lobbies for healthier school lunches, I hope they are thinking about all the children in the school, not just their own. (They could pack their child's lunch if they were only thinking about their own child). When we put soooo much emphasis on everything being a personal choice, we are saying “I don't care what you do.” Which is fine when we are talking about hairstyles, or music preferences. But when we say, “I don't care what you do” and we are talking about smoking, or food choices, we are really saying “I don't care about you.” We should be conserned about our children's peers. They just might be our future sons-and-daughters-in-law.

Breastfeeding is natural, and yes we evolved to do so, long before we evolved into homo sapien sapien, BUT history seems to show that women have been looking for a way to reduce the amout of breastfeeding they have to do for as long as we have had written history. In some points in history, wet nursing was so popular, you either were a wet nurse or used a wet nurse—meaning when there was not a large middle class if you could afford to use a wet nurse you did. There are cultures now in the developing world where if you can afford to formula feed you do, and breastfeeding is considered as sign of poverty. Breast-feeding's popularity has been a pendulum throughout history, but one thing that is different now is that infant formula is now a much better substitute. But personally I hate it when people say, “it's just as good.” Clearly it's not. Infant formula is inferior to breast milk. It's now an acceptable substitute, but an acceptable substitute is still second best.
If you have not read Mother Nature: The History of Mothers, Infants and Natural Selection by Susan Hrdy and The History of the Breast I highly recommend them for anyone interested in the subject. They both embark much more than breastfeeding. Mother Nature talks about all issues of mothering. And The History of the Breast also deals with breast imagery, fashion and health.
I have wondered if modern technology doesn't get in the way of natural selection at times. For example, I have inverted nipples and struggled at the start of breastfeeding (but I currently have a big baby who won't take a bottle!) formula allowed me to have very healthy twins, who were also feed some breast milk. So technology has allowed me to potentially pass on my less than ideal nipples to two female offspring. Similarly to eyesight. I'm very nearsighted and have been since my teens without the aid of glasses, I'm sure I would never have been able to get out and successfully attract a mate to reproduce with. So technology has allowed me to compensate for my lack of reproductive fitness and compete with those who are naturally more fit than me. But I guess that's a whole other topic.

“At some point, nursing becomes easier and eventually it does become easy, but no one really tells you that.”--Dowlinal
Really? That's too bad and something we can all do something about. I actually heard over and over again from the people around me that it would become easier. Actually to the opposite extreme, rather than getting advice on how to fix latch problems I was basically told to grit my teeth and tough it out for the first weeks because after that it would become easier. That was from other women and my OB, the pediatrician did tell me I could NOT feed with scabs on my nipples, luckily I knew from other sources that not only could I but it was what I should do.

“I am opening pro-breastfeeding but, after all is said and done, I don't think it's a simple as breastfeeding is superior so all women should do it. I think breastfeeding is a choice. It requires a huge commitment from the mother. You have to watch what you eat and drink, you can't be away from your baby for more than a few hours, you can't hand your baby off and get a full nights sleep, etc. I think as mothers we need to look at the big picture and decide what is best for our family.” dowlinal
Aren't most of those issues support problems? What Rachel is saying is that our social structures are not set up to support breastfeeding—especially twins, which I think we have to remember twins, though becoming more common, are still not the norm. The problems you mention have to do with lack of support more than personal choice. For example if we were still a society where your mother or mother-in-law lived with you, you'd have more support in cooking healthy foods and drinks for you as well as for your family while you are nursing. You'd have help with the housework, and care of the older children. In other times that women would have successfully breastfeed several children herself, and would be a fountain of useful advice. The majority of our mothers and mother-in-laws bottle fed their babies and kind of think you should do the same.

There would also be an additional adult around to hold and soothe one baby while you fed the other. I didn't tandem nurse in public or otherwise, because I needed both hands to maintain one of my twins latch. When they were old enough to sit on their own and use one of their hands to position the breast only then did I start to tandum nurse. I gave my girls pacifiers mainly to hold them over while I breastfeed one. Their bottles came at set times which I didn't really diviate from so if they both wanted to feed at some other time, one had to wait, and we used the pacifier to help them wait. Why does a women feel like she can not nurse, single or tandem in public? The implication here is that we can fully cover ourselves when nursing one baby, but not when nursing two. The question is why do we feel like we must hide nursing from the public eye? That is a social issue, not a personal choice.

“Breastfeeding itself isn't a cure for anything.”--Joyful
You are talking about behavioral and parent/child relationship issues. It's important to remember that breast milk is full of antibodies, so in terms of physical health, it is literally a cure for a lot of things as that recent article points out. In my own experience my girls were exposed to chicken pox twice while I was breastfeeding them and once more shortly after weaning and they did not get it until their fourth exposure when they were three years old.

 

Now for some experiences.
With twins I did experience a world where the vast majority of the people did not think EBFing them both was an option. The doctors, OB, GP, Surgeons, and Pedis, all said just do as much as you can. (Pedi's also through a mention of their formula of choice, “Bfeed as much as you can and give them X formula for the rest.”) Family, friends and strangers also commented that they thought it was great that I breastfeed them partially. I never met anyone who expected me to do it exclusively, nor did anyone ask why I didn't just give them bottles. Everyone here seemed to know that bfeeding in any amount was better than not doing it at all. Except for one person.
My mother-in-law, did not live with us, but spent a lot of time with us during the first three months. She breastfeed 4 of her 5 children. She herself is a twin and a mother of twins. Unfortunately for her, her mother died before she had her own twins. Her mother EBF her twins, she had no other options at that time. But she was told she'd probably have to supplement. One twin wouldn't take the bottle, so she opted to exclusively breastfeed that twin and exclusively bottle feed the other. That was in 1981, and the twin who was bottle feed was much smaller, even though he was the boy of a boy-girl set, did poorly in school and to this day has had more health problems than his siblings. She told me on several occasions before their birth that I'd probably have to bottle feed one. And when one had a significantly harder time latching than the other she said it even more. I was horrified by that thought. Because for me that would be akin to preferring one over the other. Even when I mentioned that to her, she seemed to really really want me to do what she did. Which I think is a common response from mothers.
Because I'm the type of person to get information from printed matter, books, internet, etc. I knew that EBFing twins was an option and would have liked to do it, but delivering early, under general anesthesia, no specific lactation instruction, no access to an electric pump, health issues restricting my diet, in addition to the lack of belief in those around me all contributed to them not being EBFed. I'm comfortable with the fact the girls were not exclusively bfed, and I'm proud that they were partially bfed for 15 months.

Now with a singlton, I am EBFing him. I tried giving him one bottle a day in the evening, to try to get a longer strecth of sleep, but also because I wanted to give him a probiotic supplement in his milk. He would never take more than an ounce, often only an ounce and he did not enjoy having the bottle in his mouth so I've quit trying.

The hospital I delivered this baby in is very pro breast feeding. More than lipserve this is expressed through the following policies.
All babies not in need of intensive care bed in with their mothers. Not just room in, there are no bassinettes, your baby is in your bed with you. You are in contact with your baby at all times.
The hospital does not provide formula. A doctor must say there is a medical reason for formula to be given and the father or other patient support person must go out and buy it and bring it into the hospital.
There are no bottles allowed in the hospital. Babies who have approval for formula must be syringe fed.
After birth, babies ARE NOT WEIGHED until they are one month old. It is expected that babies will drop weight and it is assumed that that will scare mothers into giving bottles unnecissarily.
Every 4 hours the mother is asked about how many times her baby has wet or dirtied a diaper and this information is recorded on the chart and monitored to check if babies are getting enough.
The babies' color and humor is also evaluated every 4 hours.
There is no specific lactation specialist and the nurses didn't know how to help correct latch or what to do about my inverted nipples. And actually in this small hospital (30 adult beds total, about 15 used for maternity) there is only 1 RN on each shift she supervises a teach of 10 nurses who have 2 year nurse technician degrees.

This last point is really the only thing I would want to have been different about my experience. If there had been a nurse or an LC who could have helped me correct my latch and had a good idea about how to properly draw out my nipples it would have saved me weeks of pain. And from non-medical people, I would have liked it if the other women around me didn't just say “oh yes it hurts at first but it will get better.” With my twins I nursed pain free by the third week. This time when I was still in pain at six weeks, my husband was ready for us to throw in the towel. Luckily the baby didn't take to the bottle so that helped convince him that I should keep it up.

For all that the Mexican public health department is pro breastfeeding, I think they sabatage themselves in the long term. Working mothers only get six weeks post birth leave. I'm thankful that I'm in a job that allows me to take additional leave and a position to be able to afford to go without my pay for six months. When I go back to work my baby will be 7 months old and I plan to breastfeed morning and night (and overnight if necessary) at that point for another 7 to 12 months after that.

 

I really like this!! I have trouble relating to FFing moms sometimes, but the best I can do is TV like you said or C-section like I mentioned earlier. I don't understand why they often feel attacked by the campaigns that "Breast is best".

I also appreciated Rachel's comment that she doesn't think we should be responsible for assuaging FFing mommies' guilt. I think she's right, I'm still trying to decide what I really think about it. My nature is to try to keep the peace and harmony, which is DEFINITELY often not the right thing to do.

I really think it should not be a personal choice...I like PP's comments that it should just be expected. This is why I love this forum!! I really enjoy reading what you all have to say.

I don't have all the scientific basis and am not nearly as eloquent as most of you, but I just wanted to express my appreciation!

 

Jennifer, I relate it to daycare.

I know that a full time stay at home parent is best for children. But other circumstances in my life led me to choose daycare, knowing full well it was not "just as good". I did the best I could to make sure their daycare experience was as good as it could be. Just as FF mothers choose the best formula, the best bottle shape, make sure the bottles are sterilized, the water pure, etc. etc.

But I do not kid my self to say that daycare was "just as good" for my year old babies. It worked for all of us. I had to optimize the best situation for the whole family, knowing that it would be less than ideal for some of the others.