1-2-3 Magic

I just started using timeouts with my girls using 1-2-3 Magic. I read (listened to the audio version, actually) the book quite a while ago, and now I'm having some problems remembering everything. Or...maybe this issue wasn't addressed. What happens when a child refuses to do something when you are in a time crunch and don't have time for a time out? For instance, what if the child refuses to put on her coat when you are getting ready to leave for work/daycare. If counting doesn't fix the problem and you need a time out, it's hard to do it when you are needing to leave. Thoughts on how to handle this? We haven't actually had this happen yet, but I can see it in our future and would like to know what to do when the time comes.

 

I read 3/4 of the book but did not get to the chapter that discusses how to get them to do things.

From what I remember, you DON'T do time outs for things you want them to do, but only for things they should not be doing. In other words if they hit-time out. If you want them to clean their room and they don't you would not put them in a time out.


I really should finish reading it because I having some issues myself.

 

1-2-3 Magic is the one where you count and if your kid doesn't cooperate something happens at 3? (time out, loss of inappropriately used item, etc)

Isn't that called bullying when one kid does it to another? Do what I want when I want or you'll pay?

 

Yes, that is a start behavior and you need to do some positive rewards for getting them to do things.

Yes, that is the book. Bullying? I wouldnt call 2-4 year old bullies. ardon:

I would look at them as testing their boundaries and it's my job as their parent to teach them right from wrong. If that means putting them in time out to teach them not to hit, then so be it.

 

Getting their clothes/coats on is considered a "start behavior" and you don't count for those. I think one suggestion was to use a kitchen timer to give them enough time to complete the task...when it is done correctly and on time, there is a reward (ie. sticker chart).

(I just skimmed ahead in the book to write this post...I just started reading it for my 21-month-old kiddos!)

 

There are 7 Start-Behavior Tactics:

Positive Reinforcement - When she puts on her coat "What a good job putting on your coat, you're such a good girl!"

Simple Requests - Done in a chorevoice-a businesslike, mater-of-fact voice

Kichen Timers- "I'm setting the timer for 5 minutes, let's see if you can get ready before it goes off".

The Docking System - If you don't do the work (getting ready) you don't get paid. This is only if you do allowance.

Natural Consequences - Don't want to put on the coat, ok but she's going to be cold and most likely the next time you ask her, she'll wear it.

Charting - Make a chart of all the "Start Behaviors" and if they do it every day, at the end of the week they will get a special treat, reward ect.

Counting (different version) - Use only if the task will take less than two minutes to complete (this would work for the coat problem).

 

Thanks, Sarah and Judy. That was helpful information. I'm hoping to have a chance to relearn all of this when school is out for the summer and I have some more time. We'll just muddle through the next two months until then.

 

great question. I watched a seminar version of the 1-2-3 Magic, and he referenced the start behaviour, but didn't go into it. I think I need to look into the book again, thanks for the recap of it.

 

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Why do we call it discipline (and therefore it is appropriate) when an adult says "do it my way now" but we call it an inappropriate behavior when one child does it to another?

I'm not saying I have the answers (actually I'll come out and say I have none! :headbang: ) but I can't quite come to terms with the counting ultimatum. I can understand giving ttme limits such as "If you can't get dressed in 5 minutes I'm going to help you" or "I'm going to count to ten while you pick between toast with butter and toast with hummus" but I don't feel like "I'm going to count to ten and if you don't stop X you'll get a time out." To me, that is a whole different story.

OP- In understand you want support, but you came hear looking for suggestions. If you can't remember what you are supposed to do it is clearly not a logical consequence, so surely won't make sense to your kid.

 

So what do you do if you get to ten and they haven't picked? Pick for them? Wouldn't that effectivley be saying 'do it my way now' as well? Similarly giving them 5 minutes to get dressed and then "helping" them seems to me to be as much making them do what you want, when you want (within a time frame that you've set) as the OP's coat problem.

From what I understand of reading posts here (I haven't read the 1-2-3 Magic book) the counting for them to stop X or they get a time out is used for behaviours like hitting or bitting. I'm a big fan of natural consequences but I don't think they exist for all behaviours. So you give them warnings not to do something which means they have a chance to change their behaviour. If they choose not to stop then the consequence is a time out.

A consequence is a consequence, whether it's natural or not. The point is still to teach the children what is acceptable behaviour, where the boundries are, and what will happen if they cross them.

 

Why is it such an issue to get the kids to do things your way if they don't cooperate? It's not bullying, it's called parenting.

The rule to keep in mind about time outs is that they lose all their value IMO when you use them wrong - like, if it actually gives the kid an opportunity to get away from a situation he wants to get away with. Giving a time out for not putting the coat totally defeats the purpose, because they're getting what they want - they're not getting the coat on.

 

I have been meaning to get this book for months, but I just haven't gotten to it yet. From reading this post, it does sound like I've been doing time outs "wrong" because I do use them for things like refusing to put a coat on. I give them a choice if they're not listening - "do you want to go in time out, or do you want to come put your coat on?" Most of the time they listen and put their coat on, change their diaper, come brush their teeth, etc. When they don't, I always follow through with the time out. When time out is over I ask if they're ready to come and do whatever it was they were supposed to do and they so far have always done it. If they didn't, I guess they'd go back in time out. I don't know. I see how it sounds like bullying, but I don't see it that way. I see it as parenting. The actions I want them to do are always reasonable requests, I'm the parent and I know what's best for them. I don't know that I can buy into some of the natural consequences - I can't bring myself to let them freeze (and get sick) without a coat, I can't let them get a bad diaper rash because they refuse to change their diaper, and I can't let myself watch their teeth fall out when they don't want to brush them. I am still interested in checking out the book though, because if I'm doing something wrong and there is a better way of "disciplining", I'd really like to learn.

 

Denise, I do something similar but it's not time out for not doing the task, it's time out for disobeying mommy. Then they have the option to try again. If it's something we don't have time to wait for (putting on the coat to get to school on time), I tell them I will count to 5 (or whatever) and if they haven't done it or aren't making a reasonable effort to do it then I will do it for them.

Bullying? No. I was not entrusted with these children to be their friend. I was entrusted with them to teach and guide. 99.99% of the time, that leads to a wonderful friendship as they grow. Like Zoe said, a consequence is a consequence. The child is given the choice to make (that's the counting after being told what the consequence will be). They choose to not obey, they choose to receive the consequence. I agree with the others that said that's not bullying, it's parenting. We have too many children with a sense of entitlement that don't respond to authority figures. That's what lack of discipline and being the child's friend rather than teacher and guide leads to. Of course it's not black and white, there will be children from great homes that grow up to be less than we'd hoped and children from less than stellar homes that grow up to be wonderful productive citizens. We teach and guide then let them go. That's all we can do. I'm going to do the best I can during the years that I have to help them.

 

That's a good point. I do see it that way too, and make sure I explain to them before and after the time out that it's because they weren't listening to mommy.

 

I actually see this a little differently. If one of my kids is refusing to get dressed, it's not because they don't want to put on their coat or get going to wherever it is we're going, it's because that's what they've picked at that moment to assert their independence with. They're saying no for the sake of saying no, they're saying no to push my buttons and see what happens, they're saying no to see if they can control the situation. For my kids, TO for refusal to cooperate with getting dressed works very well. It's not giving them what they want, it's gently reminding them that this is not something they have a choice about. (And they get plenty of appropriate choices, including putting together outfits that make no sense! :lol: ) If it comes to the point of a TO, they are much more cooperative afterward.


Username - how is parenting different from bullying? Bullies at school boss kids around purely for the sake of bossing kids around and being king of the hill, and often because they find cruelty fun. Their tactics are teasing, mocking, humiliation, and physical violence. Is it really necessary to spell out why parenting is different from this? Just because a relationship includes a power dynamic doesn't mean that it equals any other relationship that has a power dynamic.

And yes, a big part of discipline is "You can choose to do what I asked you to, or you can choose X (unpleasant) consequence." If effective discipline that doesn't include ANY unpleasant consequences exists, I've never heard of it.

I'm a big fan of natural consequences too. In the OP's case, I would have let the child go out with no coat (provided we weren't going to be out playing for 2 hrs) and feel cold. But natural consequences only work when they're immediate, because little kids need to see immediate (or near immediate) cause and effect, and you can only use them when they're not a serious danger to the child. (Two reasons why a pp's example of brushing teeth isn't a candidate for natural consequences - obviously you're not about to let your child get tooth decay, but even if you were some kind of sadist who would do that, the delay between non-tooth-brushing and tooth decay would make it meaningless.)