Need help

Hi there,

Our babies are 4.5 months, or 20 weeks. They had been sleeping decently up until a week ago. Usually I would nurse them to bed at 7:00. Then they would wake up around 11-12 and then 3-4, and then they had a bad habit of waking for the day around 5 or so. We could handle this, even with a couple of paci drops during the night.

However, in the last few days the babies have regressed. Last night, for example, my little girl woke up every 45 minutes until 1. I nursed them at 10, 1, and 3:30. My little boy woke up at 4:30 and would not stop crying, so I nursed him again at 5:30. My husband and I have not gotten more than a few hours of interrupted sleep for the past few nights, and we're not sure what to do. We're starting to lose it!

I'm very tempted to CIO, but I know a lot of people think this age is too young. I am a little confused because Weissbluth seems to think it's ok to CIO at this age, but a lot of people on this board do not. I just don't think we can go on like this much longer. I haven't had more than 2-3 hours of sleep at a time since November. Like I said, I am totally fine with 2 or even 3 wakings at night, but not this constant waking and fussing. What would you advise? I feel like it would be for the good of the family to do CIO, because right now everyone is exhausted and angry and irrational. I would have to do CIO by myself because my husband can't handle the crying. So here are my questions:

Have you done CIO this early? If so, did it work?

I'm also concerned about continuing to feed them in the middle of the night. I think they still need to eat 1-2 times in the night. WIll this confuse them if we CIO? If any of you continued feeding at night during CIO, how did you do it?

What was your maximum time for letting them cry?

Can I do this by myself?

Our problem is not going down for the night, it's staying down and the early morning wakings.

Thanks for any help you can give. Please no flames, I am looking for support and encouragement. I am also calling my doctor today to see if she has any suggestions (she did tell us at the 4 month visit that we could try CIO with them, but I want to rule out any other issues).

 

I did not do CIO that young, but I also had babies who dropped to only waking once a night around 12 weeks old. I would do some modified CIO if I were you. I don't think I'd do cold turkey CIO to stop all night feedings, but if you just fed them at 4:30 am and they wake up at 5:30 crying, maybe do CIO just for that feeding.

In other words, before the night falls decide on when they should eat during the night. You said they had been eating at 11 or midnight and then again at 3 or 4 and that was fine. So if they wake up at other times then let them CIO except for two times per night.

GL, I know it's hard when you are sleep deprived. Others might not agree with me, but I know if I was waking up that many times per night I would have to do something about it. Everyone needs sleep.

ETA: to answer some of your other questions: I don't think they are old enough to get confused yet. I didn't let mine cry for more than 1 hour. You can definitely do it by yourself.

 

Do they seem to recognize a difference between night and day? Do they have a different routine for nighttime sleeping than daytime naps? My guys sleep in sleepsacks at night and also see that mommy and daddy are sleeping and it is quiet. Daytime naps are in clothes and regular old household noises continue. Do your guys eat as often during the day as at night--there's no reason they need to be eating more at night than during daytime (not more often, not more in amount). So--stuff them during the day--we use bottles so this is easier for us. If you are supplementing with formula, you may want to consider that for nighttime feedings so you can see just how much they are eating at night and then get them to eat a little more right before bedtime to get them to sleep longer. And nursing them to sleep is going to get them used to needing a boob to fall asleep. Can you nurse them, then change them into pajamas/sleepsacks and put them to bed slightly awake? They will then associate sleepsacks with sleep, not boobies with sleep. Remember: Boobies are only for food not for sleep!

And if your husband doesn't want to do CIO cause he can't handle the crying, then he should be taking all the extra feedings and soothings. Drink a big glass of wine and just let him take over.

My DD has been STTN (11 hours) since 4 weeks adjusted and DS only wakes once, but he is IUGR so he really needs that extra feeding. They both do wake at night, they see mommy and daddy sleeping (sometimes I peek while pretending to be asleep :FIFblush: ) and then they go back to sleep. Cause nighttime is for sleeping.

Also helpful to us were more absorbent dipes--either larger or nigghtime. Sometimes they used to wake up solely because they were wet and then decided since they were up, might as well have a nighttime snack.

The other thing is that at this age they might be teething, so that's something you want to either rule out or address.

 

They do seem to know the difference between night and day. We have always opened shades and turned on lights during the day and keep things quiet and dark at night. Our bedtime routine is to put them in night diapers, swaddle them, turn off lights and put on soothing music and nurse. I barely look at them at night when they wake so I don't stimulate them. The only time I nurse them to sleep is the last feed, and the night feeds seem more like dream feeds to me; all of the daytime feeds I have them eat, then play, then nap (although napping is a whole other challenge!). Their nighttime feeds are always way shorter, too--like 10 minutes as opposed to 20-30, so I assume they are not eating as much as during the day.

They are drooling quite a lot, so I thought maybe teething is coming. How do you know until you see a little tooth poke through?

Thanks for the feedback; hoping for more!

 

Also, Aimee, what did you do if yours cried for longer than one hour? Did you go in and soothe and try again?

Thanks!

 

We started cio at about 4-4.5 months. Our little girl was sleeping thru the night for the most part. So when our son would wake, we started only giving 1-2 ounces. They're uptake of formula during the day increased as they wanted more then as opposed to night.we eventually would just cuddle son standing up or change a diaper and put him back down. He started sleepin thru in no time even though he still wakes when he is wet and then wakes his sister at times. I try to do CIO at his one wake up but sometimes it backfires if she wakes up. Overall though, if they are both awake at bed or middle of the night we do CIO after diaper check. I would def start CIO now. At the point when we started I was ready to lose my mind. They will acclimate to no feedings if you just decrease slowly or do water in middle of night-after a few days or tapering down night feedings, I would just check diapers or give paci and leave.GL!

 

We started cio about 4 months but I only had to endure it a few times that early because they went to bed pretty easily. Also about that time we changed to an all formula bottle for the last feeding of the day. My pedi suggested it to help them sttn and I think it helped. They both eat a lot at the end of the day. They eat about 430 and I offer them bottles again at 630 so they are usually full when they go to bed at 7. My little boy still wakes up about 3-4 to eat though. As far as CIO goes though, if they cry I go wash the bottles with the tv loud. Usually by the time I get through them, they are asleep.

 

:hug: You must be exhausted I would probably suggest a night time bottle of formula too. I nursed the boys for the first 6m but always gave a bottle of formula at night, honestly I looked forward to that "break"!! Are they nursing for a shorter period at night b/f they go to bed b/c then I'm assuming they're hungry. Their "in" the night feeds could purely be habit and for comfort. Are they at a good weight for their age? That makes a difference too.

We did do CIO that early but just at night time not during the night. If one of them woke up in the night I'd give a soother and let them fuss (they didn't really cry) but at that age they slept through. It was ME who decided that they could sleep through the night b/c once in awhile they did so I knew they could. At that pt I decided that I wouldn't nurse them until 6am.

 

It was about that time that we had to do some CIO, too- for the reasons you've mentioned. I woke up one day PO'd b/c they'd been up like what you described- every hour.

We made sure they weren't teething- my boys get a bit warm, drool like crazy & ADORE gum massage when they teeth, so it's pretty obvious. They also don't normally care for teethers from the freezer, but when teething gum the crap out of them.

Anyway, when they aren't teething, we had a mental clock- if they can go 4 hours, we'll see them in 4 hours. If it's been 3 hrs 50 minutes or something, ok, but we're not going in their room until that 4 hours has gone by. It took a couple of nights, but they began to figure it out and stopped waking & crying so much. Since then we've backslid a bit due to teething, but once this round is over, I think my boys are ready to sleep much longer than 4 hours (almost 7 months and 18 lbs...)

Good luck- it sure isn't easy.

 

My boys went thru a similar stage, they had been eating once a night and then around 4.5-5 months wanting to eat 2+ times a night. I wasn't ready to CIO or night wean at that point, I wanted them to gain a little more. I struggled thru it and finally night weaned using extinction CIO at 5.5 months.

Talk to your ped, if she's happy with their weight gain and development, she might green-light CIO this early. They might be going thru a growth spurt and need the extra calories, but I doubt it's teething at 4.5 months.

 

I started doing the Ferber method at 4 months. I was also given advice from my pedi to go ahead with extinction CIO. That wasn't what was right for my family so I taught them to go down to sleep on their own. I would go in at regular intervals never going longer than 10 minutes (normally I barely made it 8) and I would re-binky, sing, and rub their bald little noggins. After 3 days, they started to fall asleep on their own. After that, the sleeping increased at night. The Ferber method taught them how to self soothe which they then started to do when they woke at night. We too were waking every 2 hours at night and 1 week after beginning sleep training, we dropped to 2 wakings a night and then after 3 weeks, I switched them to different cribs and got down to one waking. Since 6 months, C sleepys 10-12 hours without waking and K does 11-13. They go down for naps and for bed without fussing. I just lay them down awake, and thats that. They are happier now getting decent sleep and it gives me a lot of time to sleep and get homework done. I do not think 4 months is too young to sleep train, however, I would not do extinction CIO for the sole reason that in my opinion, my children were not ready to sleep all night. They were 11 lbs with chicken legs. Now they are 17 lbs with bear legs and sleep like champions. Good luck with your babies!

 

I think what is going on is totally normal. In that, babies dont just STTN every night for the rest of their life. They have lots of bad nights and lots of bad consecutive nights. Some nights I get less sleep at 3 years old than I did when they were 1. :woah: I think CIO at that age is too young. But if that is what you think will work for your family then that is up to you. But being that they are still nursing at night tells me that they still need to eat. And I would be afraid of doing CIO and teaching them that they cant have food. ardon: Maybe they are teething? Have you tried a little Tylenol before bed? How about having DH give a bottle so that you can sleep through one of the feedings?

 

Wow - I was just about to post a thread just like this one. My boys are 4 months old and I am in the same situation. I just left a msg for my pedi seeking advice. Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. I am at my wits end and very sad about it. I love my boys and feel like this is getting in the way of my enjoyment of them. I'll try to keep you posted on what my pedi says - maybe it will help you too.

 

Thanks for all the helpful advice and support, ladies. Of course, just when you think you can't take it anymore, you have a better night. They reverted to their 2x feeding last night so I got a little bit more sleep. We are not planning on doing CIO for at least another week or so, and I definitely think they still need to eat at night.

kcg24, I do have a question. Did you ever pick up the babies to soothe them? What if they were really crying? Or did you keep them lying in their cribs and just rub their heads? How long/how many times did this usually happen over the course of a night?

Horsey Lover, let me know if you get any good advice from your doc! I am still waiting to hear from mine! I'll do the same. We can do this. . .

 

Have you done CIO this early? If so, did it work? ABSOLUTELY! WE DID CIO AT 8 WEEKS TO STOP ROCKING DS TO SLEEP, AND THEN AT 4 MOS TO DROP THE MOTN FEEDING. IT WORKED LIKE A CHARM - 3 NIGHTS OF CRYING EACH TIME, FOLLOWED BY YEARS OF GREAT SLEEP. SERIOUSLY, ***YEARS****I KNOW IT'S HARD, BUT IT'S SO WORTH IT IMO.

What was your maximum time for letting them cry? NO MAX. MINE CRIED FOR OVER AN HOUR EACH OF THE FIRST TWO NIGHTS, THEN ABOUT 10 MINUTES THE THIRD NIGHT, THEN NEVER AGAIN. I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S BETTER TO JUST SHUT THE DOOR AND NOT GO BACK IN, BUT I PERSONALLY WASN'T ABLE TO DO IT, SO i WOULD DO 10 MINUTES AND THEN SOOTHE, 15 MINUTES, THEN SOOTHE, ETC. i THINK IT WAS MORE FOR ME THEN FOR HIM.

Can I do this by myself? IT WOULD BE REALLY HARD, BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN. IT DOES HELP TO HAVE SOMEONE THERE REMINIDING YOU THAT YOU ARE INVESTING A FEW HOURS OF PAIN FOR YEARS OF GOOD SLEEP FOR YOU AND YOUR CHILD. WELL RESTED KIDS ARE HAPPIER, JUST LIKE WELL RESTED MOMS yOU KNOW YOUR BABIES CAN'T BE GETTING GOOD REST WHEN THEY ARE WAKING ALL THE TIME.

 

Well... my pedi says it is too early to do CIO. He says they don't really know why you are not coming to them. But, I see that CIO works for so many moms... that's kind of confusing to me. If it works, then why do many Drs say it is too young?? Hmmm...

When you say you would go in every 5, 10, 15 mins... after 15 mins - do you keep going in at 15 min intervals?

 

I've been wondering about this too! My girls are almost 5 months and weigh 11.12 and 11.1 lb. Are they big enough to stop night feedings? They go to sleep on their own at around 7:30, wake up around 2 or so to eat (although usually just Lilly wakes up and I wake Bri up to keep them on the same schedule) and then on week days I feed them again around 5:30 when I get up for work. Not sure if they still actually need to eat in the MOTN or if it's ok to let them cry it out.

 

I personally never did full blown CIO with any of my kids, because that means leaving the room and not going back in. I do a modified CIO. I do continually go back in, replace their sucky, cover them back up, make sure the lullabies are playing, and then go back out, all without talking or eye contact. I have no set time frame of doing this, I use my mommy gut. If in 2 mins one (or both) are screaming their little heads off, I go back in, but if they are just fussing and it's been 15 mins, I'll continue to hold off until they hit that truly upset stage.

But I also agree that CIO at 4 months is too young. The youngest I did it was at 5.5 months with my twin dd, and she had been sleeping through the night since 3 months old. We tried gas drops, colic drops (prescription), teething tablets, tylenol and/or motrin for teething...nothing was working. I refuse to backpedal and begin feeding at night again, so we tried my modified CIO one night. After 2 night she was back to sleeping through the night.

Do you have a white noise machine, fan, or other background noise running at night? How about lullabies? Both of those have worked wonders for my kids sleep. They know if the fan is running and the lullabies are playing, that it's nap/nighttime. It's also helped when we are travelling, those are 2 items that are easy enough to bring with us to help them realize that, even though this isn't my bed, my room, my house....I have a fan noise and my lullabies so it must be okay to go to sleep here.

It's also common for kids to go through sleep regression when they are busy working on something new. Perhaps they are trying to roll over during the day, or something similar...their little minds tend to dwell on it all night long, which makes for very restless sleep. There's not much you can do except to deal with it until they settle down again, or accomplish whatever it is they are trying to do.

Another thought, since you are nursing, they could be trying to increase your supply. Try nursing them more frequently during the day, even maybe some cluster feeds before bedtime, and see if that will help tide them over. If they normally go 4 hrs, try feeding them every 3 or so. After a day or two your supply should adjust and they may get what they need during the day, thus dropping their night feeds again.

 

Just to add my two cents, I asked about CIO on here as well at that age and alot of people dont like it that early or at all. I wish I would have at least given it a try at that age. We tried at 8 months and they cried for so long I just couldnt take it any more. We tried not going in at all and we tried going in at intervals. None of it worked until we just let them cry. And it took over an hour for my son and about an hour for my daughter. Now they have had teething issues, bronchitis, ear infections and are back to nursing every couple of hours. I am not looking forward to CIO again. I hope its not as bad as it was before. My doc gave the ok for CIO one DD tripled her birth weight and no longer needed a feeding at night. Sometimes its just easier to feed them once or twice, but every couple of hours is just too much for anyone. Good luck to ya!

 

And you did this with your twins in the same room? Just trying to figure out if I should put my twins in separate rooms.

 

Yep they were actually sharing a crib at the time. My ds pretty much slept through his sister's crying, he may have woke a couple times but went back to sleep easily. It was only my dd who had trouble sleeping for awhile.

 

Just wanted to thank you all for the advice! We're going to wait a bit longer to CIO. The doctor gave us the okay, but I want to wait until at least 5 months (only another week and a half). Two nights ago they had another terrible night--up almost every hour, and then they were miserably cranky yesterday. Then, last night was probably one of the best nights we have ever had. I fed them once, and replaced one paci over the course of the night! They are keeping us guessing. I'm sure I will be back on here when I am at my wit's end again. But THANK YOU for all the responses, and good luck to you, HorseyLover, I hope things are going well.

 

Thanks... we are waiting to do any sleep training too. It looks like these babies just keep us on our toes, because one night can be terrible and the next really good. Good luck to you too!!!

 

We had a few nights like this too recently. They were horrible, up every half hour... all night long. I feel your pain. Then one of the girls got a tooth... it was the teething for us. We started leaving the ceiling fan on for white noise and then doing infant motrin before bed to help with teething. Seemed to work. Good luck!!

 

I think that depends on how you define CIO. Many 4 month olds do need some sort of feeding through the night but you can sleep train just for sleep onset, etc. The way I look at it is that on this forum, the moms who did CIO late will say that 4 mo is too young and the moms who did it early will say its fine. It's all about what works for you and your children.

As for the questions at hand:
I did CIO for bedtime at about 4 1/2 mo. We were having to hold them for a good 30 min after each feed before they would go to sleep at night and since I was nursing this became exhausting. They did not want to self soothe at all. When we did CIO, after about 3 nights they were falling asleep in their cribs without any crying at all. We did the extinction method for the sole reason that, if we went in there to soothe them it made them get worked up even more than if we never went in there at all.

When we did this, we still continued to do feedings at night until they were much older. We would let them cry/fuss if they woke any time before 11 PM (bedtime is ~7). We would do a dream feed at 11ish. Most of the time after this they would sleep through but if they woke up I would feed them. If they woke between 5 and 6:30 I would also let them cry/fuss until either they fell back asleep or we reached 6:30 AM. We had mobiles with remotes and we would turn the music on when they fussed to help them go back to sleep.

What I found was that by doing this we eliminated the crying just because they couldn't put themselves back to sleep (since all people, babies included, wake briefly several times a night). Since we knew that they knew how to put themselves to sleep then we knew if they were crying it was because they were hungry or something was wrong. It has greatly simplified the bedtime routine as well as nap routines and actually led to longer naps.

So, my advice is to sleep train for sleep/nap onset and still continue feedings (many bf babies need to eat at night until close to 9 mo). I think you will be pleasantly surprised with how much happier they are when they are getting good sleep. You CAN do it by yourself. My DH is gone many evenings so I just distracted myself with the TV in another part of the house for those few days and only turned the monitor on every 15 min or so. Good luck!