Interesting article about U.S. Christians becoming more Hindu-like

I just got in from walking the dog and was thinking about this. Last post before bed - promise!

I think you're right - the Jews didn't get exactly what they were expecting. I think that's why Paul spent so much time writing the gospels. A lot of the Jews missed it, even back then, and so Paul spends a lot of time trying to iron it out. I think that's why the NT is so important, because it explains the OT and the Messiah, etc. So yeah, it is sort of explaining things backwards, but I don't think that's the same as "making it fit".

I still find this interesting. Having more paths to the same place just makes things more confusing (I think). If I give you directions to the mall, and there's only one way to get there, it'll be hard to get lost. If I give you 8 different ways to get there, you're more likely to get confused and have a hard time getting to the mall. You might still make it there, but it might be a difficult trip. Seems to me, it'd be easier to have one way, then I won't get lost.

Snittens - Donita did post those references. I looked 'em up - none of them say this:

 

Well I know it's there in Revelation. I guess if you're truly interested you'll have to break out your Bible. I've read it, I know it's there and that's what's important to me.

 

Wow, really? So which Christian denominations are doing it right, and which ones have got it wrong?

I'm pretty sure he never made mention of denominations having anything to do with correct interpretations. In fact (and I don't pretend to know him very well) I would almost be willing to bet that HamiltonDad doesn't put much stock in Christian denominations at all. Those freaky, tattoo-ed Jesus-lovers rarely do. (Sorry, I couldn't resist). I'd also be willing to bet that he would be the first to admit (as would I) that the institutionalized church has often gotten the true tenants of Christianity wrong. The church (all denominations) are made up broken people; people who aren't perfect and sin. A lot. That means we (Christians) are going to do things wrong. A lot. We're not perfect by any means. We teach our children to do their best, but we don't call them hypocrites when they fail at times.

 

'Cause gee, I have nothing better to do after my kids are in bed, lol, I just re-read Revelation. Okay, maybe it was just skimming, but it's late and I have read it before. I wonder if she's referring to the passages describing the white throne judgement? It does describe the dead being resurrected for their final judgement. I don't see that it talks about people having another chance to repent, but maybe others see it that way?

 

ISAIAH 9:7-7
Messiah to be born and reign on King David's Throne.
The Messiah has always been said to be a descendant of David, so, nothing there.
Jesus is a direct descendant of David (Matt. 1:1-17 records the genealogy). Cross reference Isaiah 9:7 with Matthew 4:12-16 for the fulfillment of that prophecy.

MICAH 5:2
The place of His birth, Bethlehem.
Lots of people are born in Bethlehem. My boys were even born in Bethlehem (PA)
True, nonetheless, Jesus was born there. If it were the only prophecy to come true, it’d be sketchy at best, but this is just another confirmation.

DANIEL 9:24-26
Messiah to come and be "cut off" before the destruction of the Temple.
No comment here? There’s a parallel in Matt. 24:15 here as well.

ISAIAH 49:6-7
Messiah to be a light to the nation of Israel and to the Gentiles as well.
You are the one that claims G-d is not there for everyone, this shows that he is there for Jews and Gentiles as well
That’s not my claim at all – my claim is that salvation and reconciliation is open to everyone, not just the Jews – and that’s what Isaiah 49 says. It also says that the Messiah – “the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel – to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation” – prophesy comes true in the gospels when Jesus IS despised by the Jews (and others, of course).

JEREMIAH 31:31-34
Jeremiah prophesies God's new covenant with Israel.
Who says the the new covenant has been made, we are still waiting for it along with the Messiah
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Then in Matthew 26:
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

New covenant = made.

DEUTERONOMY 18:15-19
Moses proclaims that a prophet like him will arise whom the people must obey.
My point is, the prophet still hasn't come.
Well, if you say so…

ZECHARIAH 9:9
Israel's King endowed with salvation, humble and mounted on a donkey.
Once again, this doesn't prove that the Messiah was Jesus
So, Zechariah says that this guy will ride into town gentle, and riding on a donkey, promising salvation about 500 years before Jesus is born. 30 (or so) years after Jesus is born, he rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, offering salvation.

You’re right, probably a coincidence. Go ahead, predict something to happen in 500 years in Jerusalem, and we’ll see if you’re right.

DANIEL 7:13-14
Messiah to be given glory and everlasting dominion over all nations.
Hasn't happened.
You could be right – that’s the 2 part Messiah you asked for proof about. I’ll let Jesus give you the evidence in a little while.

There are other texts too, like Isaiah 53, etc etc.


In fact, if says that all will be united as Jews, not that a new religion will take the place of the Jewish religion--so how do you now justify that?

I think that the Chosen People – those who believed in God and followed Him did recognize the Messiah when He came, and are united in Jesus, now that they have received forgiveness for sin. I don’t believe that the Bible is talking about all the Jews literally being united in Israel (if so, shouldn’t you be packing?); I think it’s talking about united in one “body”, John 15:1-17 uses a tree, as symbolism. You really need to read Hebrews, and Galatians – it explains it all.

Jesus wasn’t trying to start a new religion – that’s the whole point. Jesus IS THE MESSIAH that was prophesied. It’s not a new religion, it’s the fulfillment of the promise! Jesus has died so that our debt is paid, and much of the Jewish law is no longer needed. We don’t need to sacrifice animals anymore, because Jesus is our sacrifice. That’s the whole point. In a nutshell.

We should be united – Jews and Gentiles – under Jesus; I believe that’s exactly what He wants.


Anyways, that's that. Like I said before, I could go on and on, but it's going to do little good. We're all pretty firm in our beliefs.

Donita, it's not there. It's just not. You can just admit that you were wrong - it's okay to be wrong sometimes. Conversations like these are useless if we aren't challenged and learning from them, and that was the point - I called you on a statement, and you can't back it up. You then put the onus on me to look it up.

Christel, thanks for the comments - I think you've got me nailed down pretty good

 

She put the onus on you to look it up b/c you disagreed. Did you or did you not call her out to begin with for not mentioning scriptures? Why does this have to be a right/wrong thread? I don't think that's what the original purpose was. The prevalant right/wrong attitude (sarcasm doesn't help either) is what people don't like about Christians. What about showing a Godly character and humbly putting in your points? Yes, you should defend your thoughts, even if the conversation turns ugly and you are treated in a manner which is undeserved. However, you catch more flies with honey. Defensive doesn't help even if you are right or if you were talked poorly to. It's better to take the high road. The conversation was going so well. I'm really disappointed with where it's ended up .

 

I agree, Pamela. IMO, all discussion and listening stops when people are told flat out they are wrong in these discussions. How is discourse even possible when this happens?

 

That is all well and good for you.

I don't believe, as Jews do, that the Messiah has come. Any justification you give, will not change my mind on that. I do not tell you how to believe, but many times you have questioned my religion and my belief system and have at times I have been told I was WRONG for not believing that Jesus is the Messiah.

That is the thing about belief, we are all free to have our own. It is when people are telling others that their belief system is wrong that there is a problem. I think I may bow out of this discussion, simply because I am tired of defending myself against circular arguemnts (this is true because the New Testament tell us so).

 

Sharon, you have shared lots of nice information here and have answered questions quite well! I think you are really wonderful for doing this. :hug:

 

That's exactly my point, nothing is going to change. I'm not trying to be a jerk and tell you "you're wrong", I'm just explaining where I stand and giving reasons why I believe what I do. I'm very sorry if I've pressed too hard or come across too sarcastic or mean-spirited, that certainly wasn't my intent.

I have questioned your belief system - why is that such a bad thing? If you're certain that what you believe is correct, then why not stand up for it? Again, I apologize if I've offended or upset you; sorry for questioning... we will agree to disagree...

And yes, I did call Donita out on her statement. I've said it before, and will say it again - if you tell me that something is in the Bible, you should be prepared to tell me where. She put the onus back on me to find the reference - I looked - can't find it, because I don't think it's there. She's confident it is, and all I'm asking for is the reference. If it's there, I'll apologize and admit I'm wrong. So far, she made a statement that was incorrect. If she wants to believe in that statement, that's a choice, but to assert that the Bible backs it up, for that you need a reference. That's all. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I'm just asking for a reference.

 

Let me put this another way for Sharon. It's like me pulling verses out of my Book of Mormon to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Many would say, "that doesn't count, you're using a book written after the fact by people who were interested in promoting that idea." Jews don't believe in the NT, just as most Christians don't believe in the Book of Mormon. (Unless you're a Mormon in which case I wub you. :wub

And I totally have Donita's back. There are many verses in the Book of Mormon that talk about people getting a chance to accept the Savior after death. I mean, if the NT will prove that Jesus was the Savior to a Jew, then surely my Book of Mormon will prove Donita's point as well. (But on a more serious note, I'm going to try and find those verses because I'm sure I know what she's referring to.)

If you're not LDS you're doing it wrong. (I'm as bad as Kim, I couldn't resist!)

Confusing to mere humans perhaps, but I always thought God was not only all-powerful but knows and loves us as individuals. To use the mall analogy, not everybody lives in the same neighborhood. Some people have to drive through a bunch of other neighborhoods to get to the mall, some can take the freeway and yet others can walk there because they live just down the street.

 

She has defended it, and you are entering "jerk" territory. The largest evidence that Jesus is not the Messiah is that there is not peace throughout the world. Is there? No. OK, therefore Jesus is not the Messiah. Shouldn't ALL the prophesies come true, not just some?

 

Sharon: I think you are very brave in your efforts to try to make people realize that just because they have FAITH in their OWN belief, that others can be RIGHT too. I’m sure you get very tired of hearing the rhetoric of some folks that completely negate your beliefs. The circular retorts that we usually see on topics like this always backed up by “Well, its MY belief and I respect YOUR belief, but YOU are WRONG”. The cool thing about that is the folks that disagree with you ALWAYS have a handy proverb ready to throw at you in defense of their opinion.

General Audience: Please recognize that the truth is unknown unless yourself have actually died and seen what happens afterward. I can say that the true path to enlightenment is eating at least one Snickers everyday. Even though I do not know if that is true or not, people with other beliefs will say that I am wrong because the Smurfs wrote a book 1000 years ago that said that Butterfingers are the only true path to enlightenment – they can prove it… Papa Smurf 1:30 – And I say to all who follow, Butterfingers with their peanutbuttery goodness are the only true path to enlightenment and it was so.

 

And can I add that I'm pleased with how well this conversation is going? Religion is an easy subject to get upset about and TOS can be so easily broken.

Keep up the good work!

 

I am having a hard time knowing how to respond in this thread. Most people know where I stand in terms of truth and what I believe that is. I do believe in an absolute truth, but that isn't really where I want to go with this.

What I don't understand is why some Christians try to prove an argument using a source which that person does not believe to be true. For example, I am not LDS and using the Book of Mormon to prove to me some of their beliefs is in no way going to change my mind. (sorry Jenny! ) I just don't believe the Book of Mormon is a true account. Does Jenny? Of course she does.

That is why using the NT to prove Jesus is the Messiah is just not going to work with people of the Jewish faith or of others that either doubt it's validity or downright do not believe. Why should it? I am confused as to why that would even be considered. I believe the NT to be truth as do others, but I also believe completely that Christ is the Messiah. It makes sense for me to use the NT to seek answers to questions I have, because to me the NT holds truth.

In terms of the peace issue and prophecy, once again that is completely based on interpretation. (big surprise there. ) One way to look at it is that Jesus will bring about peace when the end of days is here. Another way to look at it is that the peace mentioned is not a physical peace, but a spiritual one. (which is what I believe) Or, one could just dismiss the whole thing as rubbish. Which ever way one chooses to look at it, one will find either fulfillment or not.

 

Thank ..You said, this beautifully. I believe we will all know the truth one day, when we bow in front of God.

Just wanted you to know..I agree with EVERYTHING you have said.

Brandy

 

I agree. I'm out of appreciation points, but I was really hoping you would weigh in Sharon. I'm neither Jewish nor a Biblical scholar, so I feel I was doing a very poor job trying to make my points. You, on the other hand, did a fabulous job.

Personally, I believe that the very act of believing that you are right and everyone else is wrong is a sin. Even if Jesus Christ is the only path to God, who are you to say where that path goes or how it looks? You don't know anyone's relationship with God. My religious beliefs are generally "I don't know", but everything that I learned as a BAC growing up screams to me that a lot of Christians are so far from being like Christ that they might be surprised on the other side.

 

[quote name='Chase&Parker's Mommy' date='02 September 2009 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1251900918' post='1441359']
General Audience: Please recognize that the truth is unknown unless yourself have actually died and seen what happens afterward. I can say that the true path to enlightenment is eating at least one Snickers everyday. Even though I do not know if that is true or not, people with other beliefs will say that I am wrong because the Smurfs wrote a book 1000 years ago that said that Butterfingers are the only true path to enlightenment – they can prove it… Papa Smurf 1:30 – And I say to all who follow, Butterfingers with their peanutbuttery goodness are the only true path to enlightenment and it was so.
[/quote]

Both views are completely wrong. The true path to enlightment is Reese's Pieces. I respect your view of Snickers, but you are wrong.

 

Bravo - that's all I have to say.

 

Yup - me too

 

I respect that fact that you say I’m wrong, but you are wrong about that whole Reece’s Pieces nonsense...
However, I am not as devout as I should be ‘cause my personal enlightenment path involves frozen white chocolate Reece cups and DVD copies of the show Weeds.

 

Perfectly stated Cristina!!

 

Thank you, Cristina for pointing out the above quote! That is what I have been trying to say for the last 2-3 pages!

Thanks to all those who have offered me their support!

 

I would normally agree, but in this case (offering proof that Jesus is the Messiah) the best way to prove that is to offer text from the most reliable and comprehensive source of information on Jesus - whether or not you believe it, that's another story.

When I'm talking with my atheist friends I don't use the Bible to say "Hey, there IS a God - the Bible says so!" - that line of reasoning doesn't get anywhere. I'd have to use logic and other lines of reasoning to suggest the possibility/probability of God.

I hope that helps clarify why I used the NT...

 

Makes perfect sense to me.


Brandy

 

You are contradicting yourself here. You cannot offer a Jew proof through the New Testament in the same way that you say you can't offer your athiest friends "proof" from the Bible. I see the New Testament in pretty much the same way a Christian (not Mormon) would veiw the Book of Mormon. Basically, you are once again talking in circles. To me the New Testament was written simply to justify to Christians that Jesus is the Messiah--so of course it will prove your point.

 

So what other source should I use to support the claim that Jesus is the Messiah?

 

Don't know, maybe it is something you can't prove, just have to take on faith? Religion is about faith and belief, not about proof. People have asked me how I can believe in G-d with out proof of His existence. My response has always been that it is due to my faith that He exists, it is not something I have ever felt a need to prove.

 

*shrugs*

...and yet people are always asking me for proof that He exists. I always hear that faith is not enough, which I think is kinda true. Faith is needed, obviously, but I don't think I'm supposed to blindly believe. That's the criticism I get from my atheist friends, that Christians all believe in God without any proof.

...so I try to find and give proof. Not just for them, but to strengthen my own faith as well.

Anyway, no hard feelings (I hope). We can all still be internet-friends can't we?

 

[quote name='Chase&Parker's Mommy' date='02 September 2009 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1251907248' post='1441492']
I respect that fact that you say I’m wrong, but you are wrong about that whole Reece’s Pieces nonsense...
However, I am not as devout as I should be ‘cause my personal enlightenment path involves frozen white chocolate Reece cups and DVD copies of the show Weeds.
[/quote]

I've never seen Weeds, but I'm willing to be open-minded about the frozen white chocolate PB cups. Do you think that dark chocolate PB cups would provide an adequate alternative path to Heaven?

 

I'm not even religious anymore, and even I know that faith is everything. You are supposed to believe even without proof. Because there is none. You will never find it because it doesn't exist. If there were proof that any one religion were right, we would all be lined up behind it. I promise you when I get the phone call from God telling me He is the way, I'll be on board, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't know if God exists. I don't know that Jesus is the Messiah. I do know that there were dinosaurs and evolution, but that's another conversation.

Bottom line, why are you trying to prove that your faith is justified? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

 

I don't think it's an oxymoron. I think that faith and reason go hand in hand. To a certain degree you're right, you have to have faith, but I don't think that means blindly following along. If a religion seems sooo unreasonable, you'd have to question it and look for evidence of truth, right?

Of course I want some proof - proof that the Bible is reliable and accurate, proof that Jesus actually did exist and isn't just a myth, and so on. Obviously there are times and subjects that boil down to faith, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't look for proof...

..does it? What's the harm in being knowledgeable, educated and informed about what I believe? What's the harm in looking for truth/proof?

 

No harm at all. I think people should question and push and seek information. I just think at the end of the day, there is no proof. There may be facts or passages in the Bible or events in your life that strengthen your belief, but it's not proof. Not to you and certainly not to those around you.

 

Hey for once we agree. I know I'm right. You know you're right. That's why there are so many different versions of the Bible and so many different flavors of Christianity. So whatever helps you sleep at night is fine with me. As my oldest son used to say... "Peace Out"

 

No, I do not think that dark chocolate would a fitting alternative :catfight: